Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR Smokeless anyone?

Just in this morning

Well we had another rifle blow up at the Quigley yesterday. A guy was shooting a .45-70 Pedersoli with smokeless powder. I don't know the load particulars other then he was using AA-5744.
Doc. Lay was on the seen again taking care of him till the ambulance came.
I have pictures of the rifle but cant post them right now. The action held but the barrel split top and bottom and they found the forearm 50 some feet away.
He had mayor damage to his hand.

Smokeless 'ways' seem to cause lots of problems for folks that are addicted to HP 'ways'!!

????? 45/70 has been loaded with smokeless for many many moons now. Sounds more like a bore obstruction to me.

What's gonna happen is someone is going to get REALLY hurt at the Q and file a major law suit and then....there goes the match!! Loading SP in the 45/70 can be a safe practice as long as the AH doing the reloading knows what to use and how to do it!!

Yup, I wonder when they're going to say that's it, this match is done..Al Lee always said the first accident will be the last one.. That's 2 now in about 3 years.

Until' you've seen what an UNDER Charge / Light load can do to a big case BPCR, I wouldn't go sideways into bore obstructions.

....AND,...the Pedersoli's are clearly marked "Black Powder Only"

Some of the early ones featured barrels of a leaded free machining steel, similar to a 12L14.

Hell, muzzle loading barrels wrought from that stuff have gone South.

GTC

I've not heard of detonation issues with 5744, but with powder charges of 25 to 30 grains for BP equivalent velocity, it is possible to double charge. I've used it in several large case cartridges and am always doubly cautious of that occurring. Hope he recovers okay.

Smokeless...Bleedmore....wait...

We who load our own are test pilots of a sort. Those that take it upon themselves to make excursions beyond parameters by intent or accident, well, sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you.

Don't know the charge weight, but apparently the shooter was one of those that just knew that a wad on top the powder to keep the powder against the primer was just the thing to do. Barrel split from the threads up thru and maybe past the rear sight , top and bottome flats, blew the leverspring and mounting block out thru the bottom of the forestock. Case still in the chamber , looks like it was opened up like flower petals...

idiot created his own bore obstruction.

Barrel split all the way to the end? I'd be suspicious of a longitudinal seam in the barrel. I'd love to see the fracture surface(s).

Or could be a double charge.

I never liked having much space in the case. Dabbled with reduced loads in the .375 H&H years ago, and after having hangfires, wound up using tufts of cotton balls to fill the space. The loads shot extremely well, so they worked, but I probably wouldn't use them today.

Nope double charge won't of 5744 won't fit in a 45-70 case.
It was no doubt the wad on the powder, that has become all the rage amongst those who are to lazy to load black. Never mind Accurate says absolutely no wads with the stuff..

You can't tell those "Cowboy Action" types bugger all, and it's just a flat out waste of time even trying.

We're seeing lotsa' fun with that Trailboss, too.

GTC

Yes there are no shortage of dumbasses that look at the velocity of trailboss and automatically assume it's low pressure. Not a one of those brain trusts have the gumption to look at Hogdons data and see those low pressures are coming at firewall pressures....
Have even seen some internet experts proclaim trailboss to be a very good bp substitute...

NO WADS!!! The dead space between the wad and the bullet makes the bullet itself the bore obstruction!!! I use 5744 with cast slugs for my Marlin 45/70 and it works just fine. It is usable in big cases as is because it is not position sensitive.

Exactomente, Jim, and the whole tenths of a tenth of a second event commonly known as "Colliding Pressure waves" is still the stuff of conjecture, and NOT understood or defined in the science of internal ballistics.

.....we damn sure DO know what causes it, though, don't we ?
Just wish it happened EVERY time one goes off the reservation and starts out thinking AA, as opposed to a "Rare Ballistic excursion"

So, you WERE correct initially, e.g. bore obstruction.

Stupidly dangerous notwithstanding, I can't begin to imagine that kinda' load being accurate, velocities must be all over the place.

GTC

There's one less fully functional and very soulful '86 in Arizona today because of Trailboss, and some recent "Light" loads thereof. Once my anger subsides a bit I MAY consider trying to re-barrel the thing, IF the sprung frame can be pushed back into skew. ....'nother "action held, barrel gave it up" incident,.....FINE old original (pre-nickle steel) BP gun.

.....idiots.

GTC

One just has to take into account the type of round they are using and load accordingly. In the 450NE 3/14" and all straight walled express cartridges, it is imperative to use a filler (or wad) in order to ensure uniform ignition of powder loadings under say, 85 grains. A popular powder with doubles is RL-15 and you must use a filler. I avoid them, instead I use H-4831 which with 100 grains, just about fills the case once the bullet is place.

Now I do shoot a 45/60 lever with smokeless (30grains of H-4198) and there is a lot of spare room in the case, so on occasion, I have placed a wad of tissue paper (cut to diameter) to keep the powder up against the primer. Should I cease and desist? J

Absolutely cease!! The risk (even with tissue paper)is that the empty space between the wad and projectile turns the projectile into a bore obstruction. 5744 actually works superbly well because it has no ignition problems even in a huge case. Just pour the charge and seat the slug. It works just fine without wads or anything else.

Roger, thanks! the question still begs as to why the difference with the big NE cartridges.