Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR Smokeless anyone?

Just in this morning

Well we had another rifle blow up at the Quigley yesterday. A guy was shooting a .45-70 Pedersoli with smokeless powder. I don't know the load particulars other then he was using AA-5744.
Doc. Lay was on the seen again taking care of him till the ambulance came.
I have pictures of the rifle but cant post them right now. The action held but the barrel split top and bottom and they found the forearm 50 some feet away.
He had mayor damage to his hand.

Smokeless 'ways' seem to cause lots of problems for folks that are addicted to HP 'ways'!!

????? 45/70 has been loaded with smokeless for many many moons now. Sounds more like a bore obstruction to me.

What's gonna happen is someone is going to get REALLY hurt at the Q and file a major law suit and then....there goes the match!! Loading SP in the 45/70 can be a safe practice as long as the AH doing the reloading knows what to use and how to do it!!

Yup, I wonder when they're going to say that's it, this match is done..Al Lee always said the first accident will be the last one.. That's 2 now in about 3 years.

Until' you've seen what an UNDER Charge / Light load can do to a big case BPCR, I wouldn't go sideways into bore obstructions.

....AND,...the Pedersoli's are clearly marked "Black Powder Only"

Some of the early ones featured barrels of a leaded free machining steel, similar to a 12L14.

Hell, muzzle loading barrels wrought from that stuff have gone South.

GTC

I've not heard of detonation issues with 5744, but with powder charges of 25 to 30 grains for BP equivalent velocity, it is possible to double charge. I've used it in several large case cartridges and am always doubly cautious of that occurring. Hope he recovers okay.

Smokeless...Bleedmore....wait...

We who load our own are test pilots of a sort. Those that take it upon themselves to make excursions beyond parameters by intent or accident, well, sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you.

Don't know the charge weight, but apparently the shooter was one of those that just knew that a wad on top the powder to keep the powder against the primer was just the thing to do. Barrel split from the threads up thru and maybe past the rear sight , top and bottome flats, blew the leverspring and mounting block out thru the bottom of the forestock. Case still in the chamber , looks like it was opened up like flower petals...

idiot created his own bore obstruction.

Barrel split all the way to the end? I'd be suspicious of a longitudinal seam in the barrel. I'd love to see the fracture surface(s).

Or could be a double charge.

I never liked having much space in the case. Dabbled with reduced loads in the .375 H&H years ago, and after having hangfires, wound up using tufts of cotton balls to fill the space. The loads shot extremely well, so they worked, but I probably wouldn't use them today.

Nope double charge won't of 5744 won't fit in a 45-70 case.
It was no doubt the wad on the powder, that has become all the rage amongst those who are to lazy to load black. Never mind Accurate says absolutely no wads with the stuff..

You can't tell those "Cowboy Action" types bugger all, and it's just a flat out waste of time even trying.

We're seeing lotsa' fun with that Trailboss, too.

GTC

Yes there are no shortage of dumbasses that look at the velocity of trailboss and automatically assume it's low pressure. Not a one of those brain trusts have the gumption to look at Hogdons data and see those low pressures are coming at firewall pressures....
Have even seen some internet experts proclaim trailboss to be a very good bp substitute...

NO WADS!!! The dead space between the wad and the bullet makes the bullet itself the bore obstruction!!! I use 5744 with cast slugs for my Marlin 45/70 and it works just fine. It is usable in big cases as is because it is not position sensitive.

Exactomente, Jim, and the whole tenths of a tenth of a second event commonly known as "Colliding Pressure waves" is still the stuff of conjecture, and NOT understood or defined in the science of internal ballistics.

.....we damn sure DO know what causes it, though, don't we ?
Just wish it happened EVERY time one goes off the reservation and starts out thinking AA, as opposed to a "Rare Ballistic excursion"

So, you WERE correct initially, e.g. bore obstruction.

Stupidly dangerous notwithstanding, I can't begin to imagine that kinda' load being accurate, velocities must be all over the place.

GTC

There's one less fully functional and very soulful '86 in Arizona today because of Trailboss, and some recent "Light" loads thereof. Once my anger subsides a bit I MAY consider trying to re-barrel the thing, IF the sprung frame can be pushed back into skew. ....'nother "action held, barrel gave it up" incident,.....FINE old original (pre-nickle steel) BP gun.

.....idiots.

GTC

One just has to take into account the type of round they are using and load accordingly. In the 450NE 3/14" and all straight walled express cartridges, it is imperative to use a filler (or wad) in order to ensure uniform ignition of powder loadings under say, 85 grains. A popular powder with doubles is RL-15 and you must use a filler. I avoid them, instead I use H-4831 which with 100 grains, just about fills the case once the bullet is place.

Now I do shoot a 45/60 lever with smokeless (30grains of H-4198) and there is a lot of spare room in the case, so on occasion, I have placed a wad of tissue paper (cut to diameter) to keep the powder up against the primer. Should I cease and desist? J

Absolutely cease!! The risk (even with tissue paper)is that the empty space between the wad and projectile turns the projectile into a bore obstruction. 5744 actually works superbly well because it has no ignition problems even in a huge case. Just pour the charge and seat the slug. It works just fine without wads or anything else.

Roger, thanks! the question still begs as to why the difference with the big NE cartridges.

Filler???

I like full cases, or nearly so. It makes for a more gratifying 'Boom'! Usually makes for better shooting too. I am picky about what powder goes where nonetheless.

Some many Moons ago, when primer brissance was THE topic, and folks were starting to noodle around with smaller flash holes, bushings, over primer wads and all sorts of other "ignition" related extrapolations,
...... SPG's magazine ( had a great article with a photo essay of various primers fired in the dark, high speed camera recorded. If it wasn't BPCR news, it was either Accurate Rifle, or such. Hell, may have been ASSRA's rag.
Anyhow, it sure put to rest any doubts one might have regarding modern primers throwing a LOT of screaming hot particles,....and quite a distance, at that.
I'd reckon that the general concensus thereafter was to avoid light charges of those powders coated with retardants.

While 4198 may well fall into that (retardant) category, I'm pretty certain that 5744 does NOT.

Sure looking forward to seeing the pics of this Pedersoli's residues / wreckage / final remains. Would LOVE to know it's vintage, too.

GTC

I've been following this thread and have learned a lot. There are some pics of the rifle in question here:

http://historicshooting.com/mybb/showthread.php?tid=1425&page=2

YEs, such as dacron, or the extruded styrofoam curtain rod fillers. DR guys use them all the time

Then there is NO airspace between the wad and projectile.

That stuff they call "Florist Foam" is one of the better choices,....versus "Kapok", Tissue Paper, Dacron.

WAY better uniformity if one is careful cutting it to close tolerance / thickness.

Throw / weigh powder, charge case, push cut FF over case mouth, seat bullet.

Been using the stuff forever for the currently somewhat debatable jacketed bullet break in. Puts some accuracy into the equation, and lets one rough in his mechanical zero, while performing the otherwise boring and onerous chore.

4198 and 4227 really need some sorta' filler.

"Cereal Shooting" has been around a long time, and whether COW, or Corn Meal, Wheatena, or grits,...... another way to take up the airspace, and dodge this ridiculous wad issue.

NO airspace,....repeat NO airspace !

GTC

anyone try Puff-lon?

Ouch....

Never been to the "Q" but do the smokeless shooters compete with the BP users or do they have separate categories?

Every body in the same pot.

Just about willing to BET that we're looking at an old, early vintage (Leaded Steel) Pedersoli barrel there.

Can't BELIEVE the gap that's opened up right at the breeching area,....that metal flowed like biscuit dough.

Where's that little sawed off Swampy bastard that used to continually kvetch about us ruining our rifles with black ?

GTC

That photo confirms my assessment of what caused the blow-up.

Went and pulled those rounds I had loaded with 30gr of 4198 and a foam filler. There was probably about 1/16" gap between the foam and the back of the bullet. Thanks for this. J

What people seem to forget is that a Sharps is a very strong action and more than capable of withstanding smokeless pressures. Shiloh does recommend black powder, not because the gun can't take smokeless powder, but because it can't take the abuse that stupid people will do with all the components that make up a cartridge...

^^^^^^ What he said, in spades.

Leaded steel can be funky. I inherited a high volume job years ago, where some genius had spec'd 11L14. Occasionally the fancy Italian forming machine would break the parts and throw them at you.

You've got that right, and there are NO flies on the Pedersoli effort,.....ACTION wise.

The barrel viewed does bring to mind Velveeta Cheese, though.

.....not a very palatable reality sandwich at all.

GTC

30 gr? The barrel split scares the heck outa me but I use 24 gr H4198 behind a 520 gr pointy tipped cast 20:1 bullet. Now for some more blasphemy...I also use just enough dacron batting to hold the powder agasint the primer. I've never found any after shooting. I'm fairly certain it burns up in the barrel. I regularly use a neck expander and seat the bullets approx 1/2 way in with my fingers. The bullet size, length and lube hold it firmly enough and when I stick it in the chamber the bullet seats itself in the case. Avg crony is 1129 FPS and it shoots .5 MOA at 100 yds.
It maintains the MOA out to 200 yds and I had planned on shooting it 300 yds this Sunday on Silhouettes.

My rifle is a 1997 Browning High Wall BPCR .45-70 with an MVA Malcom 6X, 28 inch scope.

My thinking is this is a modern rifle using low pressures. Is this also an accident waiting to happen?

Thanks

I also shoot an original Sharps 1859 .45-100 but I use BP in that one.

Might want to see how your home owners insurance will handle thing if that gun goes up at a match, and someone other than yourself becomes a casualty.

30gr in a 45/60. Velocity right at book of 1330.

Velocity means diddle squat, pressure is what matters. Black powder load at that velocity probably running around 15000 psi, that smokeless load closing in on twice that.
Take a look at Hogdons web data , or something like the Lyman 49th,see what the pressures are actually doing.

Actually the Browning HighWall in .45-70 Owners Manual reads as:
"The Model of 1885 BPCR is a special version of the famous Single Shot rifle designed for in the BPCR metallic silhouette competitions. It is designed primarily to shoot black powder or Pyrex cartridges in one of the two calibers (although shooting smokeless loads in the .45-70 Govt. version is permissible)."

I have heard the smaller caliber was never listed per Saami specs and that is why they do not list both of the calibers for smokeless.

Ranch13, this raises the question...Which part of my shooting my Browning High Wall requires I check my homeowners insurance?

Hodgdon does not show data for the .45-60 online, but in a .45-70 30gr of IMR 4198 under a 405 cast gives 1370 fps and 17,000 cup.

FWIW

I also used filler when shooting a 500-450 #1 Express years ago, using data that Seyfried had published. 10 grains of Dacron over a fairly hefty amount of H4198. It did shoot to the original fixed sights that way, however.

What the hell is a Pyrex cartridge?

We're working on it.
Tempered glass, just like you cook in.

.......you'll never wonder about airspace again.

there is admittedly a problem with getting appropriate neck thickness defined.

Once we bring it on line it will resemble an "Everlasting" case, most likely.

Shares in this venture are for sale DIRT CHEAP, at this time,....if you want to invest in this next dynamic evolution in ballistic science,....feel free to send $$$

Yours, in the holy black,

GTC

crossfireoops - check your pms please. LB

I have been shooting an 1874 shiloh 45-70 for about 10 years and shot a C Sharps 1885 in 38-55 for couple years before selling it.
I have shot 100% smokeless, RL-7, and it works fine.
Have a 50-70 1874 shiloh on order. Shud be done very soon. I have shells loaded with RL 7.
If you follow published loads it seems to work fine.

It's not the published loads of smokeless that are the problem, Dale, it's the use of a wad or other material that holds that smokeless powder away from the bullet base, creating an air gap.

No air gap, no problems. Thus the comments about Dacron filler, Floral Foam, Cream of Wheat, etc. They fully fill that gap between powder and bullet.

I have shot many round of .45-70 with smokeless powder (not in my Shiloh, though!) and more than a couple in .38-55 without any problems, either.

Ed

Am I risking blowing my new Turnbull 45-90 up by not using filler in my cases.

I am using IMR 3031 and was told from Turnbull that I did not need filler in the cases.

I have loaded up 100 test cartridges with out fillers and you guys have me worried that I did something wrong

All of the slugs that I have cast are gas checks will that make any difference.

Any advice would be appreciated

Pard, if you re-read, the powder was under a card wad to keep it in front of the primer thus creating a dead air space between the wad and the bullet. That turned the bullet from a projectile to a bore obstruction. No wad,no problem. If you must use a wad then you must have a filler. The very least that would happen is a ringed chamber. The worst was shown in the photo.

My .45-90's are single shots, easily cleaned, so I never have loaded smokeless in them. Is yours an 1886?

You can run a test by holding a round nose down, to shift the powder to the bullet, away from the primer. That simulates what might happen in the field when you have a round chambered, with the muzzle down. Then chamber and fire it and see if there is any perceptible hangfire or lost velocity/accuracy. If it works okay, enjoy the rest of your loads.

In the .375 H&H I had to use fillers, for reduced loads of 3031, to prevent hangfires. But there was a bunch of space in that long case.

If you do have problems, then a filler (not a wad!) is indicated. Or switch to a slower burning powder, like say Varget, that more completely fills the case. Or black powder, which as stated is never loaded with air space in the case.

You'd be surprised at the killing power of a big bullet, launched at 1300-1400 fps by black powder. Different bullets are required for black, than a gas checked hard cast, however.

It is an 1886.

I talked to Turnbull several times on the phone about the loads

I talked to them about the bullets that I was going to cast and the possibility of changing from BP to Smokeless.

They informed me that there should not be a problem switching between the two. They recommended the 3130 powder and sent me some load data to get started with.

The BP should be pretty easy 45-90 (90 gr BP for max)

I would like to test the recoil with Smokeless to see how much I can take before I go to the BP.

I do know that the recoil from Smokeless and BP are different animals.

I am no stranger to BP just not in a case. I have only poured mine down the barrel. 50 cal Hawkins and 10Ga. Blunderbuss (this one gets your attention pretty quick with 80gr FF and a patched .760 ball What a HOOT. I hope that the 45-90 is as fun to shoot.

Thanks guy's for the clarification to my question

Just my 2 cents but you can split the difference and try some Blackhorn 209..Been getting good accuracy with it in my '86 45/90 of late. Velocities/recoil are close to BP but cleanup is much easier. If interested go to their web site for cartridge loads.