Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles 17 Rem pet loads?

I'm getting ready to load for and shoot a lovely little scrollwork-engraved Rem 700 in 17 that was one of my dad's favorites. The plan is to sell it, but I can't resist shooting it first. We'll see if I can part with it.

Pet loads, anyone? Favorite powders? I've got Hornady 20 V-max and 25 HP, both naked and moly.

Either bullet on top of 24gr's of IMR 4320 and a Remington 7 1/2 primer.

Don't sell it.



Travis

Two guns you never sell - the first one you owned and any that belonged to someone that meant something to you.

Sorry. I never owned a .17, let alone loaded for one.

+1 for 24 grains of 4320 and a 25 grain bullet. Great load in the 17.

23.7gns of Varget (2208) and a 25gn Hornady HP works for me.

If you have some, Ramshot Big Game was the best powder tried in my .17 Remington when I owned it. Ramshot doesn't have any data listed but I dared the elements and tried it anyway. I ran 28.0 grains with 20's and 26.5 with 25's.

Benchmark was second-best with 20's, and Varget with 25's, using Hodgdon data.

When loading for the .17 Remington there should be no deviation from either the 7 1/2 primer, or 4320.

The changing of these two components will likely lead to demonic possession.




Travis

Maybe, but I suspect the demons invade the moment anybody buys a .17 Remington.

I took a 700 BDL up to the then published max of 25.2 grains of IMR 4320 under a Remington 25 grain HP back when Remington made their own.

Demons FLED.

Tom

Thank you, everyone, for your input thus far!

I don't have any 4320. I'd actually wondered if it would be recommended. It was the only powder I can remember my father using. He also often complained about the small bore getting fouled quickly. I suspected the two were connected. I can get my hands on some.

I don't have any Big Game, either, and I would have guessed it would be to slow. Can't argue with results though. Hodgdon doesn't list 4320 in its online data either, and that seems to be a popular choice! I do have Varget, and Benchmark. And 2495, Tac, 322 and several others in the appropriate burn range. Had planned on starting with the 25's, and it looks like Varget and 2495. Will load these up this morning. If they don't show promise, I'll get back some 4320 that was given away.

I'm not after screaming speed, and I don't want to put a lot of wear and tear on the bore. I DO want to see 25gr bullets at 4 grand though, and I'm excited to shoot this rifle. As I said, it was one of my dad's favorites. He had two 17 Rems over the years, and he held onto this one. I don't know his reasoning, but I will say that the rifle is one of the loveliest 700's I've ever seen, with the scrollwork action and handsome, well finished wood. The trigger is adjusted to what feels to be about a pound and a half. I've got a scale around here somewhere. I've got a bit of a crush on the rifle, that deepens every time I handle it. Have seriously begun to doubt parting with it. It would be regrettable later, I suspect.

Winchester 760 is another powder worth considering with 25gn bullets.

I've shot an awful lot of 4320 through a 17 and never found it to bad for fouling. When I first had mine I fell into the 17's foul badly and need to be cleaned every 20 shots mindset. One trip to the ground squirrel killing fields cured me of that. The first day I was cleaning pretty frequently and about to swear off the 17 because of all the barrel cleaning. The next day I shot without cleaning till I ran out of squirrels and daylight. Just for grins and giggles I shot a group with it after somewhere north of 250 rounds of squirrel shooting. It was still grouping a little under 3/4", which was normal for that rifle. It would run around 1/2 to 3/4 inch groups most any day. Half inch if I was on, 3/4" if I wasn't. I quit the OCD cleaning regimen after that. Once or twice a year now whether it needs it or not.

I wouldn't stress too much about fouling.

I had one with the scrollwork and it was a shootin' sumbitch.

If you do sell it let me know. I'll buy it with the understanding that you can always buy it back if you change your mind. The BDL .17's are really cool IMO.

We've been getting a lot of 4320 up here if you need some.



Travis

Agreed.



Travis

The power of Christ compels you....

The power of Christ compels you....




Dave

HuntnShoot,

I long suspected a lot of the reason for the "fouling" reputation of the .17 Remington was due to the dirty-burning spherical powders often used in factory ammo when it was introduced. It would have been logical for Remington to load them in the .17 because they'd flow easily through the small neck.

I bought a 700 built in the second year of production to test this theory, which hadn't been shot much at all, and never had any fouling problem with Benchmark, Varget or Big Game, a very clean-burning spherical of about the same burn-rate as 760. But 760 isn't particularly clean-burning, though the latest version seems better than it used to be. I have been told, however, by people who bought early 700's that some of those barrels were pretty rough.

As for the powders such as 2495, TAC, H322, etc, that you list as "appropriate," they're actually a little fast for the .17 Remington, especially with .25's. They'll work, but they're better suited to the .223 than the .17 Remington, which has a little more powder room than the .223 with a considerably smaller bore.

Hence somewhat slower powders work better; generally powders that fill up a case, or come close, without producing excessive pressure will produce the highest velocities.

4320 is a classic, since it's a little slower than either of the 4895's, but Hornady lists 760 as producing the highest velocities in the .17 Remington with 25's, and it's slower than 4320. But even 760 still doesn't fill up the case, the reason I tried Big Game, which is just a little slower than 760. Plus, Big Game burns cleaner.

I tend to run a lot of spherical powders in .17 caliber cartridges, because when loading with a powder measure they flow through the small necks a lot easier. Finer-grained extruded powders also work well, another reason 4320 has been a classic .17 powder.

I've had good luck with AA2700 under 25gr bullets in mine. I've also had good luck but less speed with 3031, an old friend of mine used the 25 Hornady and enough 3031 for 3800fps to great effect on wolves, coyotes, foxes, and even a handful of caribou so I just had to try it. I haven't shot anything but paper, but the accuracy is there. I get outstanding accuracy with CFE223 under 20gr Hornady's. I'm using rem7 1/2s now but when I couldn't find any a couple years ago I found the heavy cup CCI 41 designed for ARs to work quite well.

Just a comment that W760, H414 and A2700 are all exactly the same powder.

Data will vary slightly in some sources because of lot-to-lot variation, but the powder is all made in the same factory, then goes into different canisters.

Somewhere, maybe around here, I've read that Shilen was supplying a good number of .17 barrels to Remington. Do you know if there's any truth to it?

I've owned and shot four .17 Remingtons and I have never experienced the fouling problems that are supposed to accompany the cartridge. I know Carmichael has written that the fouling theory was started when initial batches of Remington bullets were too thin in the jacket. This supposedly caused bullets to come unglued and the cause was mistakenly put on barrel fouling by some writers. The myth kept getting reprinted.

No idea if this is true or not but it has never been an issue for me. And I very rarely clean rifles.



Travis

mathman,

Yeah, I've heard that too, about the barrels on both .17 a .204 caliber barrels on Remington 700's, but have never been able to confirm it.

Travis,

I can't recall reading that Carmichael theory, but had heard some early Remington barrels were rough--which was why I looked for an early 700. When I wrote an article reporting essentially no fouling problems, a guy contacted me saying that some of the early barrels were indeed very bad foulers, and that he'd had more than one. He claimed to have some sort of proof, but I can't remember what it was.

After an initial cleaning of my rifle (which didn't show any visible throat erosion through the bore-scope) I deliberately shot it without any cleaning to see when groups started opening up. It didn't happen until around round 120, and even then accuracy was still around an inch.

I cleaned the bore at that point and treated it with Dyna Bore-Coat, and after that the rifle would go 200+ rounds without cleaning and still shoot the same.

Have seen the same thing with other .17 caliber cartridges, both rimfires and the .17 Hornet and Fireball. In fact I haven't cleaned my CZ .17 Hornet at all since buying it new, and it just keeps shooting 5-shot groups around 1/2", with any load, whether factory or whatever weird handload combo I come up with. Have rarely cleaned my .17 HMR since buying it in 2003, and it just keeps shooting great.

Yet I still sometimes hear people saying they won't own any .17 caliber rifle because they're foulers.

Thanks for confirming the AA2700 thing John, I'd heard that but wasn't certain.

My 17 is an early BDL and I'll say that in it's case fouling is pretty much a non issue. I cleaned it down to bare metal when I bought it, and decided to give it a fair shake before rebarreling. It shoots lights out and I've let it go 200 shots between scrubbings with no major change in group size.

Thanks for the info.

I'm starting to wonder where all those "rough" early barrels are. Did everybody who ended up with one rebarrel their rifles?

Travis,

I've read the same comments. I also believe Remington over corrected on their jackets. I bought a bulk lot of them in the early/mid 90's that were prone to pencil holing on coyotes. I was having coyotes I was sure I had hit well, act as if nothing happened. It wasn't until I killed a few with follow up shots to the CNS that I started finding pencil holes. I realize a few coyotes doesn't make an empirical test but it made me always suspect they ran some 17 bullets with tougher jackets to correct for the early ones. I went back to the Hornadys and have never had a reason to switch. Their 25 grain HP always works.

The 17-222 Mag Flaig barreled Sako has never had a cleaning rod through it, nor has a friends 17 FartBall, both of which slapped the crap out of the steel targets from 200-450 yards recently.

When they start having unexplicable misses, I might clean them.....

I inherited a 15" Bullberry in 17 Mach 4 from my dad. Have only put about 60 shots through it. Ran a wet patch and a dry patch when I first got it. And did the same after about 50 shots. It didn't need it. I have another Bullberry, a 218 Bee, and it seems to never need cleaning either. Both those bores act like bores I have treated. I've been meaning to find out whether Bullberry hand-laps, or exactly what they do to their barrels. I can't even make soft cast bullets shot 2200+ foul the Bee. They won't shoot accurately that fast, but they don't lead the bore.

The Mach 4 is a lot of fun! I remember having a discussion with JB about 17 cals. You highly recommended one, John, and I see why. Haven't shot any game with it, but with the fireforming loads I've run, hitting water bottles out to 150 is pretty dramatic. They don't just pop. The pieces get flung 8-10ft sideways. Pretty cool stuff! I haven't settled on a load for that one either. H4198 is working well so far, but I may be able to do better.

My initial starting powders for the 17 Rem are Varget, 2495, and BLC(2) with the 25 HP, all short ladders to half a grain under max according to manufacturer data. I'll end up trying 4320 as well, when I can get my hands on some.

I'm curious just how bad a fouler the rifle will be. Maybe my father was just overly o/c about the bore. The likelihood of that was already high, and with what you gentlemen have added to my understanding, it seems more and more certain.

I don't have much to add, but will confirm what others have reported. My first 17 Rem. was in 1971 and began a love affair that is still on going. I never had one that was a fouler and the go to powder in those days was 4320 as others have posted, along with W760. Those powders still work great in the 17 Rem. with W760 being exceptional behind a 30gr. bullet. In an 18" barrel Model 7 I owned, H322 worked the best of any powder I tried. That powder had good accuracy in my longer barrel 17's, but not any better than 4320. IMR8208 is what I mainly use now in all of my 17's and 204's. But, in my 30gr. loads in the 17 Rem. I still use H414/W760. All of my loads are with Rem. 7 1/2 primers.

John,

If you have an old copy of The Modern Rifle, check out the chapter dedicated to varmint cartridges. He has a section that concerns all things .17.

He explains the rough bore problem did exist. But it existed in the 30's. Barrel makers still hadn't figured out how to drill and rifle bores that small in diameter yet. But by the time Remington was standardizing the .17 Rem, all those problems had been sorted out by O'Brien, Shilen, and others.

This is all off memory but I read that book about 5,000 times when I was a wee-little-'flave.



Travis

That had to be one of the very first.



Travis

Same here. They always shot well for me but the Hornady HP was more deadlier.

I was shooting mine yesterday at the range and I just can't help but laugh every time I shoot a group with it.



Travis

I briefly thought about using 2001 as the date so as not to date me, but that would have been to much of a lie.

I practically camped over night in front of the gun shop waiting for the first one to arrive. I had read everything I could find about the 17 back in the day. P.O.Ackley and some of those ol' wildcatter that wrote about the 17 cal. back then really had my blood pumping for one.

Travis,

Yeah, I have a copy, purchased the year it appeared, probably from the Outdoor Life Book Club. Will check it out.

Probably don't remember the comments on .17's due to believing they were possessed by demons. Do remember all the comments on the .220 Swift, which demonstrates (a word obviously derived from "demon") what happens to memory after a number of years and IPA's. That's not a warning, just fact.

I forgot what we were talking about but I wish you luck with it regardless.



Love always,
Tumbleweed

Bent Nails????

Those too....




Travis

I hate to get off topic because I know how much it stresses Mule Deer but if I may offer a simple observation.....

You're frikin old dude.

+2

I've yet to see a 17Rem that wouldn't shot that load pretty darn well.
I shot 4320 for years and still have a few hundred rounds loaded with it on hand but nowday's I load N140 behind Channing Nagel's excellent 25 grainers. Shot my best group ever with it so I'm sticking with the N140. It also meters well and burns clean.
I'm not sure how many "win's" that is but it quite a few.

The only significant fouling I've had with .17 caliber was from two .17 Remington TC Contender barrels, both carbine length, one "standard", one from their Custom Shop. Both had a drop-off point for accuracy under 20 rounds.

Tom

My favorite load in my 17 Remington is the Berger 25 gr MHP with 22.5 gr of Rel 15 , Remington 7.5 BR Primer in Remington Brass. This load will shot bug holes from my 17 R

The 2nd generation Remington factory loads were rumored to be bonded after they went to the heavier jackets. I am hoarding those for deer and they are good for Turkey too where you don't want them to fragment.

Not sure when Remington switched to the Hornaday 25 instead of the in house 25? Sometime in the early 90's I think.

Thanks a lot!
And to think I was starting to feel rather spry, then you posted that. ggrrrrr!!!!

But its gratifying knowing you are older than me.

Are you saying that Mule Deer is more grouchy than you?

Geezzzz,,,, it was just an observation,,, take some Geritol and relax.


And NOBODY, BUT NOBODY is grouchier than me, AND DON'T FORGET IT.

Gotta go,,,, I have a date with a gal half my age that likes to stick her finger up my but.















OK,,,, truth is,,, it's a doctors appointment but don't tell anyone.

What a grouch!!!


I think your doctor sounds better than mine. Want to swap?

Where's the 'Like' button for FG's finger butt post? That's pretty good.

I told my barber that one the other day.

He laughed so hard I was starting to fear for my left ear.

Yes!! My fast load for the 17 was H414 (same as) at 25.- grains with a CCI 450 primer. (It pierced some others.) 19.0 IMR 4198 was another load my rifle liked. It seemed rather mild and doesn’t push 4K like the H414 load does.

HuntnShoot: All three of my 17 Remington Varmint Rifles prefer and perform wonderfully (lethality wise) with the Berger 25 grain bullets.
Two of them prefer H 4895 powder and the third likes IMR 4320 powder best.
I use Remington 7 1/2 primers in all of them.
I use "molied" Bergers in one of my 17's and think its worth that effort.
I have tried all manner of 25 grain bullets in my various 17 Remingtons but never tested the 20 grainers.
Best of luck to you and good luck selling that Rifle when the time comes - but I say keep it, for old times sake, if nothing else.
I am sure if you do sell it that the day will come when you wish you had it back.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I’ve heard that Remington might have used Hornady to source their 17 bullets at some point in time. I know those old Remingtons didn’t always look the same as the Hornady 25 HP. I kind of think I can remember the Rem 25 HPs being Power-lokt for awhile????? (Or is that just another memory I have- like some others- that just ain’t so?)

Yes Klik, the old Remington factory load used the Power Lokt plated bullets that were also available as components. They were like mini Speer Deepcurls! I have a box somewhere but haven't gotten around to loading any, had great luck with 20 and 25 grainers from Hornady. I even have a half dozen boxes of 25gr Barnes Original soft points lying around. Never seen any more of them and Barnes swears up and down that they never produced such a projectile. But they are sealed in orange AccuTech boxes that boldly state what they are and where they came from.

I shot about 800 rounds of 30 grain Bergers out of a sako 75 the powder was h380 @3600 fps. Used it for p dogs, fox, and coyote. I was happy with the results. Woodchuck den sells a variety of heavy bullets for the .17. I have shot his 30 gr boatails in my model 7 with 748 powder they shot nicely.

"(Or is that just another memory I have- like some others- that just ain’t so?)"

Definitely happens to me.

Has anyone tried CFE 223 for either 20 or 25 grain loads? Hodgdon shows top velocity for this with the 25. But I have heard reports that one way it reduces copper fowling is by leaving a sooty residue in the barrel. Supposedly this doesn't harden like the usual carbon build up and allegedly lubricates the bullet. Any first hand experience? This powder is available but can't find any 4320 locally.