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I ordered one of the PredatAR barrels for $199, they are supposed to be fairly light yet MOA accurate. http://www.laruetactical.com/barrels?sort=popular
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Thanks for putting this up.
Any idea what the steel used is? I couldn't find it on their site, so I googled and found a thread where it was being said they used to claim Lothar Walther was the mfr, then changed it to just stainless, and now it appears no mention of the source or the steel.
I may order a "Stealth" anyway. The site says they've heard several claim sub half moa with those, but there are no reviews yet.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire Regular
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I believe these are the barrels made in house by LaRue. Supposed to be pretty good.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I ordered one of each. That was the limit. Hard to pass up a price like that for a barrel with their reputation. I'll be looking forward to getting them, but it sounds like it might take a while.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Yes these are supposed to be made in house but no who knows what they are using. I spoke with a guy last week that has a 7.62, he said it shot so good he ordered a 5.56 PredatAR to go with it.
Figured I'd try one at this price, gonna build another light weight.
I did notice they use the Internet ninja 3 shot group guarantee...
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Campfire Tracker
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Do they still use Lothar Walther blanks?
I've owned 2 LW barrels and was very happy with both of them.
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They are rifling their own barrels now. Not sure on the method or steel.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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From my knowledge, they are doing their own because they had to many Lothar reject barrels.
I don't know what they are using steel wise or rifling wise, but as long as they meet the accuracy needed, it doesn't much matter typically.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Sounds like a good deal on them.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Yep its gotta be a step foward unless you are worried about barrel life IE is it buttoned or cut or corrosion resistance or how the barrel dies( SS/vs CM die totally different deaths)
Good move from Walther, I had 2 of their tubes also, was not at all impressed with either one. Good solid barrels but no where near match quality.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Both of my LW barrels shot great but that's only a sample of 2. I'm sure LaRue had a good reason for dropping them.
Last edited by TC1; 06/27/15.
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Campfire Kahuna
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ours were just a bit under MOA, but not nearly what we expected from their hype many years ago.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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this a chromed or nitrited or bare steel?
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I honestly don't know, all I can find is they are made to be accurate for a long, long time.
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They must have been swamped. It's over with already.
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It's over. I procrastinated long enough to miss it, then immediately regretted it. Success!
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Well it was a huge success, they had to extend it a few days but you guys are safe now.
I ordered another upper from Rainier without the FA last night, these sales are killing me...
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Campfire Ranger
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wow up to $495 again? I had just bought a Wilson 6.8 stainless, so did not participate. Are they bare steel barrels?
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Who knows? Mark is claiming proprietary secrets but I figure it's some kind of voo doo or black magic.
An MOA light weight barrel for $199 was just too cheap to start getting picky.
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Campfire Kahuna
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We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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true, $199.00 is cheap looking at the price now, rats.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The new price includes the barrel nut, gas tube and block. During the sale those had to be purchased separately and were about $100.00 together.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire Ranger
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I just called them to ask if it was a stainless steel barrel, and Tim said he could not tell me what the barrel was made from, I asked him if it would rust and he said "all steel will rust", I said I hunt in the southeast in the rain, he said "our barrels are used by Beard's McOperator's everywhere in the world and are found to be satisfactory", I said your a little evasive and he said "yes sir I am". I will hold off on the $495 unobtanium barrel for now.
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Campfire Kahuna
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That reply doesn't surprise me...
When you don't answer, you don't get business.
Especially when you try to justify cost of a name
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Too bad Mark didn't answer the phone. I'm sure the call would have been a lot more entertaining. 
Last edited by TC1; 07/02/15.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I just called them to ask if it was a stainless steel barrel, and Tim said he could not tell me what the barrel was made from, I asked him if it would rust and he said "all steel will rust", I said I hunt in the southeast in the rain, he said "our barrels are used by Beard's McOperator's everywhere in the world and are found to be satisfactory", I said your a little evasive and he said "yes sir I am". I will hold off on the $495 unobtanium barrel for now. Hope it ain't plastic.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire Kahuna
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for 495 one could get a barrel from a known maker, top of hte line, that will actually answer questions.
A sucker born every minute I guess.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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for 495 one could get a barrel from a known maker, top of hte line, that will actually answer questions.
A sucker born every minute I guess. Yeah but the LaRue comes with a free hat, bottle opener, and grill seasoning (sarcasm). It also seems to come with a membership to Mark LaRue's cult like fan club. All jokes aside, I won't bash him too much, his rifles tend to shoot extremely well.........and he is sending me a free MBT trigger so I don't want to get on his bad side. As for the suckers, look at the top rankings in the SPR division of this challenge: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_17/51___ARFCOM_1_MOA_ALL_DAY_LONG__Challenge_.html
Last edited by wareagle700; 07/02/15.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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You calling me a sucker?  No way would I pay $495 for one of their barrels and before the sale they were $399 for the bare barrel. Like I said at $199, it's worth a gamble for a guarantee of MOA, you can't buy a Colt, BM, RR or DD barrel for that. That's why I passed the sale along...
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If I would have "needed" one I would have jumped in a heartbeat. For $199 it seems like an extremely safe gamble.
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They must be dancing naked by the full moon when assembling these to have 5 in the top 10 over on arfcom.
i do remember an interview with John Noveske where he said the reason he quit using LaRue rails was because LaRue was making a barrel just like theirs but who knows, who cares as long as it shoots half as good as their reviews say they do.
Mark may have a rep but I've never been disappointed in his products and I've compared them to lots of others.
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so again...rats..like Blue I thought about it too long at $495 not so much...
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Campfire Kahuna
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They must be dancing naked by the full moon when assembling these to have 5 in the top 10 over on arfcom.
i do remember an interview with John Noveske where he said the reason he quit using LaRue rails was because LaRue was making a barrel just like theirs but who knows, who cares as long as it shoots half as good as their reviews say they do.
Mark may have a rep but I've never been disappointed in his products and I've compared them to lots of others. Maybe full moon, maybe not... They could be supplying to top shooters free and or at big discount. Props up your name. etc... Don't ever think that .mil shooters have the best guns... they simply outshot me. I can almost guarantee that the worst of my gun/ammo combos was shooting better than anything they handed the .mil shooters, well maybe the top few got as good as I had. There are various ways to get to places. This does not say that La Rues tubes are not top line. I was pleased he figured out Walther was not a great tube. I knew that before he ever started, but money is always an object. Simply saying when you are arrogant enough to not answer questions, and charge as much as KNOWN top line barrels where the makers have no voodoo, and will tell you what you want to know, well its an easy decision. Paying 199 for a barrel, when you don't need the very best, is a risk I'd take every last day..... and you might get one of the very best, even though you don't know which voodoo doll made it or how.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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was not asking for the Colonel's secret recipe, just wondered if it would become Remington's fine single shot model 742 after a day in the rain.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Yep, amazing what they won't even answer...simple questions etc...
If nothing else, yes its a SS barrel but a proprietary SS we can't divulge or not its not .... geeze...
but then you know how I feel about paying for names... knock yourself out if it floats your boat but its a ripoff IMHO.(not you specifically obviously)
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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But then again they might just be that good...
You'll never know till you try
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Campfire Kahuna
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OR I can spend same amount of money(obviously not counting the sale price) and obtain a KNOWN GREAT tube in the process, and not have to wonder or worry..
There was a time I bought into some hype about a company known as Blackstar.... paid premium for a hyped but basically unproven tube and metal and treatment.
Barrel life did seem better. Accuracy was mediocre, but lets just say it was replaced by a mid line Pac Nor tube that outshot it fairly quickly.
Let us know how yours turns out. They may be worth it in the end.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Please let us know! On the other hand would hate to spend $500 to have it rust.
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Jesus with the number of rifles LaRue has out there that shoot to their accuracy guarantee and haven't turned into rust, I kinda figured they are a "known" product.
But that was the reason for the sale, "to get the word out", didnt figure I'd get this response for sharing the sale.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I have zero clue as to if La Rue has SS barrels or not, I've never heard, even though they shoot well. I've never heard any comments.
There are multiple reasons for owning firearms, and some folks want answers.
I personally am a bit leary of any one or company that won't answer a simple question like is your barrel SS. Or CM. Or treated in some way.
You could buy the most accurate La Rue out there and hunt in regions/climates that its more important to be a weather rifle than the most accurate.
I don't know about others but I have specific guns I go to for specific reasons. If you don't know what you buying its hard to justify at least for me.
I do know a few folks that buy name because they want to impress others, can't shoot the gun nearly to its ability and would have been better off with a rack grade PSA or such gun and a couple extra cases of ammo to learn to shoot better.
That comment is NOT directed at anyone on this thread or even this forum, but I know of these folks locally.
I"m not as verbal with them though, they feel its important, and so it is. One is my best friends nephew... wants a Barret in 338 LM... so he can tell all his buddies he has one. Bragging. We talked about it at a party the other week.
#1 he doesn't know how to shoot all that well.
#2 he has no place he could even warm that gun up
#3 he is paying for the name.
His wife agrees, she would rather him have something built thats a known, and pay for that, and be able to use it.
OTOH I do own a 50 bmg and I have no place to shoot currently past 1800 yards and really have no business owning it in many ways.. I don't compete with it, I have hunted it a few times and it does nothing at all impressive to game, have to go follow a blood trail just like the rest.
So ya can do what you want in reality, I just happen to prefer to point out options to folks that might save them either some headaches or money along the way. And especially since I'm not a caddy guy, but I sure might have a 496 under the hood of the caprice. LOL.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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I am not a hater! 
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I remember a knife maker talking to a guy about what steel he wanted, he answered "we can stamp it anything you want".
Instead of going for a name, I go for results, can anyone come up with a bad review on LaRue's products? I've used and installed a good number of his rails and mounts and have never had a problem. I'm talking over a dozen rails and 15-20 mounts.
I can't find anyone who's not pleased with their complete guns, can't imagine their barrels will be any different.
You may not like their replies to what seems like simple questions but how do you know what any company tells you is the truth? Results are all that is important.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I mostly agree, but if they won't answer if its an SS barrel and you treat it as being such, and its not, and its CM and rusts very easily, what have you lost/gained?
WHY are they scared to answer?
I've not used any La Rue products and have never seen the need to use their stuff.
As you are aware I don't accept half azz accuracy out of my guns either.
La Rue works? Yep no doubt. As hyped as John Burns let me build a gun for you and that way you don't have to figure any of it out and trust me it'll shoot, but you don't need to know any more than that... yep, no doubt IMHO.
There is more to this too, from an inside source, that I will never repeat or reveal, but while LR works its certainly not all its cut out to be and woudl be one of those that would do a stamping thing, as long as they could make a bit more money.
FWIW if I wanted to have a knife other than a Piranta and had a need, I would do the same I do here, research, find out what I want, then find someone to build it or sell me the stuff to do so myself. If the guy said he could stamp it whatever, IE ignoring me and telling me what HE THINKS I need or want, we'll never do business.
All that aside I'm anxious to see how the LR barrel does when you get it all tuned up.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Who knows? Mark is claiming proprietary secrets but I figure it's some kind of voo doo or black magic.
An MOA light weight barrel for $199 was just too cheap to start getting picky. Rearden Steel... really? Atlas Shrugged anyone? The 12" Stealth barrels have an 0.092 gas port. A rifle gas port in a carbine barrel, ingenious. ML is certifiable and he can say those barrels are made of whatever he wants. It may have been hard to pass one up at $199 but they certainly aren't worth $495.
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Rearden Steel... really?
I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
Atlas Shrugged anyone?
Here either
The 12" Stealth barrels have an 0.092 gas port. A rifle gas port in a carbine barrel, ingenious.
12" barrels have a different set of rules.
ML is certifiable and he can say those barrels are made of whatever he wants.
Another fan of Mark's I see
It may have been hard to pass one up at $199 but they certainly aren't worth $495.
Thank you but this has already been covered.
Last edited by TWR; 07/05/15.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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From my knowledge, they are doing their own because they had to many Lothar reject barrels.
I don't know what they are using steel wise or rifling wise, but as long as they meet the accuracy needed, it doesn't much matter typically. I wonder if it is their rejects they have on sale?
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire Kahuna
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No, thats been years ago, and the rejects were sent back to Walther.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Tracker
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From my knowledge, they are doing their own because they had to many Lothar reject barrels.
I don't know what they are using steel wise or rifling wise, but as long as they meet the accuracy needed, it doesn't much matter typically. I wonder if it is their rejects they have on sale? I seriously doubt that. They said they would need a 6 to 8 week lead time to fill the orders. I don't think the barrels are made yet. Nor do I think he would ruin his reputation like that. Catch Mark on the phone one day and it'll become obvious real quick he's a loose cannon but like TWR said, he puts out some top notch products. I would have bought one in a heartbeat if I needed one. It was tempting even though I didn't. I rely on others to keep to keep the AR aftermarket afloat these days. I'm more of a bullets and powder consumer.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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In today's Market one never knows
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire Kahuna
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He would NOT ruin his rep, thats totally clear talking to him and the company.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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I think your right on that, if he sold reject barrels it would come back to bite him in the butt.
I would have bought one for $199 as well, procrastination will get you every time.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Nope, he won't sell a reject, he is to much of an astute business man more so than anything else, than to sell something like that and risk and bad words..
Look at what TWR always says, find me soemthing bad to say about LR.
I do say bad about them all the time, but I know well what he means.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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I have 3 of his scope mounts, they are very good.
Last edited by jimmyp; 07/05/15.
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Campfire Ranger
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I'm not really hung up on lightweight barrels. I am slightly annoyed the Daniel Mk 12 doesn't shoot better than it does.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Campfire Kahuna
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I hear if you have need of QD scope mount thats repeatable back to zero they are top notch for that.
Never had that need personally. As I don't trust return to zero if you take something off and put it back on, I'm going to fire a couple shots to verify.
But I hear they are top notch for that.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I hear if you have need of QD scope mount thats repeatable back to zero they are top notch for that.
Never had that need personally. As I don't trust return to zero if you take something off and put it back on, I'm going to fire a couple shots to verify.
But I hear they are top notch for that. If you torque to the same spec each time they will definitely return to zero each time.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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cool . I simply prefer to shoot guns if it matters that much.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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not to mention my fuddy duddiness.... I put a scope on for a reason, it stays there.
I am not one to try all kinds of things out, and only reason it gets replaced is if it fails or fails in its job.
I have iron guns for that, dot guns for that, scoped guns for that etc...
Not much on swapping parts and pieces around.
As always YMMV and I'm getting old and stubborn in my ways.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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What is their stealth upper package?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Somebody was asking about what the barrels are made of...don't know if this helps or not. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.laruetactical.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_detail/stealth_5-56_barrel_10.jpg)
Last edited by clark98ut; 07/06/15.
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Campfire Ranger
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too funny! maybe Iconel steel however.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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no it doesn't help . LaRue stakes their reputation on mystery steel. Personally, i would never pay their price for their products. They stay in business based on their advertising and people who have never owned a AR Rifle. If you have money to waste, then you are their Huckleberry.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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quick google shows rearden steel as a light but strong really new steel.
Maybe they are trying to see how it goes.
Seems like honesty is still lost.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Outfitter
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no it doesn't help . LaRue stakes their reputation on mystery steel. Personally, i would never pay their price for their products. They stay in business based on their advertising and people who have never owned a AR Rifle. If you have money to waste, then you are their Huckleberry. Mystery steel aside, I've found their prices to be on par with other quality parts. Even bought their mount and optic combo's cheaper than others wanted for optics alone. And I have to ask, what exactly are these people who've never owned an AR doing with the stuff they buy? I don't have money to waste so I buy quality the first time. I'll leave the Crapco gear for others. And yes, I am your Huckleberry.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You are the type that keeps them in business. I just don't understand how anyone can pay a high price for a unknown product and the person you are buying from refuses to let you in on what he is selling you. Just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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There is nothing wrong with keeping La Rue in business.
Different folks handle things differently.
No big deal really.
Me, I won't waste my money except where I know I need to buy the best, and sometimes thats a name, and sometimes its not.
Like buying John Burns though, if you want the best of something ready to roll without work, then yoy have to go Wilson, or La Rue or the like.
Some I know even feel the need to have a big name, just because, keeping up with the Jones etc..... Their money and thats fine. Doesn't impress me in the least though.
And this is no shot at anyone here but some others I know... had they bought RRA or evne Model 1 Sales, guns, they would be shooting just the same size groups as their knights, Larues,wilsons etc....They could have bought more ammo and practiced more. LOL
The way I view something like La Rue is, you pay top dollar, to get the reliability of a factory Colt, but with great accuracy to boot. You will pay for that most of the time, and dearly, but if it works, then it works!
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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TWR, I just examined a new LaRue stealth upper, a guy was selling it here near Atlanta, it was 6 plus pounds and $1050 USA dollars. I could not see much of the barrel under the 13 inch quad rail however it is my impression that the finish both inside and out is melonite. I base this on the inside of the barrel being as black as the outside of the barrel. I did not take it because of the weight. I don't mind giving LaRue money and I will be giving him more when I get this 6.8 built for another LT-104. He makes a quality product, and as far as I can see they have gone the way of AAC, AR precision with the melonite. Which is a good thing in my book. That they are stupidly secretive is a mark against them in many a book including mine. However if I had caught the sale for $199 I would not be as upset that he is a secretive nut case....them grapes is sour anyway....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The only real advantage of Big Name Products it will aid you greatly if you decide to resell the product. I have never said the LaRue isn't a great product I'm sure it is, i just don't like people who refuse to be up front about their produce.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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The big names are also generally as accurate as one you piece together to get to an accurate gun. Though I admit I"m much pickier about accuracy than most with an AR
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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My goal is i put function and accuracy as the primary function of all the rifles i own, especially my AR's
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Rearden Steel is a imaginary company that figures in Ayn Rands 1957 novel "Atlas Shrugged", which is a very popular book about the coming ills of a socialist/fascist US government. It is popular with those in the conservative movement. I believe the stamp on the barrel relates to the statement the book makes, rather than the steel used, although to those not familiar with the book such a statement would not be understood. Atlas Shrugged is a 1957 novel by Ayn Rand. Rand's fourth and last novel, it was also her longest, and the one she considered to be her magnum opus in the realm of fiction writing.[1] Atlas Shrugged includes elements of science fiction,[2] mystery, and romance,[3][4][5] and it contains Rand's most extensive statement of Objectivism in any of her works of fiction.
The book depicts a dystopian United States, wherein many of society's most prominent and successful industrialists abandon their fortunes and the nation itself, in response to aggressive new regulations, whereupon most vital industries collapse. The title is a reference to Atlas, a Titan described in the novel as "the giant who holds the world on his shoulders". The significance of this reference appears in a conversation between the characters Francisco d'Anconia and Hank Rearden, in which d'Anconia asks Rearden what advice he would give Atlas upon seeing that "the greater [the titan's] effort, the heavier the world bore down on his shoulders". With Rearden unable to answer, d'Anconia gives his own response: "To shrug".
The theme of Atlas Shrugged, as Rand described it, is "the role of man's mind in existence". The book explores a number of philosophical themes from which Rand would subsequently develop Objectivism.[6][7] In doing so, it expresses the advocacy of reason, individualism, capitalism, and the failures of governmental coercion.
Atlas Shrugged received largely negative reviews after its 1957 publication, but achieved enduring popularity and consistent sales in the following decades.[8]
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire Ranger
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if that is not a photoshopped image, them more power to Mark LaRue, makes me more likely to get one as I did read that book. On the other hand it does appear to be a black barrel with a black interior.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I have been told they are treated SS probably melonite but I've not even seen one yet. I do tend to listen to those that actually own them than those that just hate Mark LaRue.
See if I ever pass along another sale...
I certainly didn't know $199 was overpriced for an MOA guaranteed light weight barrel, who knew?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I have been told they are treated SS probably melonite but I've not even seen one yet. I do tend to listen to those that actually own them than those that just hate Mark LaRue.
See if I ever pass along another sale...
I certainly didn't know $199 was overpriced for an MOA guaranteed light weight barrel, who knew? It wasn't my intentions to step on your toes , plus i don't hate LaRue , i just don't agree with his secret business principles.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I have been told they are treated SS probably melonite but I've not even seen one yet. I do tend to listen to those that actually own them than those that just hate Mark LaRue.
See if I ever pass along another sale...
I certainly didn't know $199 was overpriced for an MOA guaranteed light weight barrel, who knew? Dead horse I know... but if you KNOW they are SS why won't they just say it. Or say proprietary or SS treated by a method similar to X but we won't divulge etc... I"m always leery when the answer to a customers question is a smart azz remark That being said if I had need of a tube right then I'd have tried one too.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Rearden Steel is a imaginary company that figures in Ayn Rands 1957 novel "Atlas Shrugged", which is a very popular book about the coming ills of a socialist/fascist US government. It is popular with those in the conservative movement. I believe the stamp on the barrel relates to the statement the book makes, rather than the steel used, although to those not familiar with the book such a statement would not be understood. Atlas Shrugged is a 1957 novel by Ayn Rand. Rand's fourth and last novel, it was also her longest, and the one she considered to be her magnum opus in the realm of fiction writing.[1] Atlas Shrugged includes elements of science fiction,[2] mystery, and romance,[3][4][5] and it contains Rand's most extensive statement of Objectivism in any of her works of fiction.
The book depicts a dystopian United States, wherein many of society's most prominent and successful industrialists abandon their fortunes and the nation itself, in response to aggressive new regulations, whereupon most vital industries collapse. The title is a reference to Atlas, a Titan described in the novel as "the giant who holds the world on his shoulders". The significance of this reference appears in a conversation between the characters Francisco d'Anconia and Hank Rearden, in which d'Anconia asks Rearden what advice he would give Atlas upon seeing that "the greater [the titan's] effort, the heavier the world bore down on his shoulders". With Rearden unable to answer, d'Anconia gives his own response: "To shrug".
The theme of Atlas Shrugged, as Rand described it, is "the role of man's mind in existence". The book explores a number of philosophical themes from which Rand would subsequently develop Objectivism.[6][7] In doing so, it expresses the advocacy of reason, individualism, capitalism, and the failures of governmental coercion.
Atlas Shrugged received largely negative reviews after its 1957 publication, but achieved enduring popularity and consistent sales in the following decades.[8] I saw remarks to such in a quick search but also found some stuff from early 2015 indicating a new quenching method or such coming up with a new lighter metal. I didn't have time to follow it all out though, so the photo-shop joke is on me. Got it.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Anyone buy two of them that wants to sell one let me know.
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Campfire Regular
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You are the type that keeps them in business. I just don't understand how anyone can pay a high price for a unknown product and the person you are buying from refuses to let you in on what he is selling you. Just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Wow. It seems that you are against LaRue products, or maybe it's just the barrels, because he will not tell you about his "secret" barrel material or process. The LaRue fans seem to buy his product because they work, are accurate and the company has a reputation for backing up their product. That is a blueprint describing a privately owned, successful AR manufacturing business. I have no problem not knowing about the metal or process. I, like you, demand function and accuracy from any rifle because they are tools. Some that I have owned did not meet that standard. Obviously there are people that respectfully disagree with your stance. You can certainly boycott a company for whatever reasons, and that is your prerogative. "Merica", ain't she great!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I saw remarks to such in a quick search but also found some stuff from early 2015 indicating a new quenching method or such coming up with a new lighter metal.
I didn't have time to follow it all out though, so the photo-shop joke is on me. Got it. Not a joke on you at all, Jeff. I was just saying this is what I believe that stamp relates to. Before I posted my question about the steel, I did a bit of googling to see what I could find out without asking, if possible. When I did, I ran into the same picture another poster put up with the Rearden Steel logo and pursued that to the end I reported. So if it was on you, it was on me, too. Just as Rearden Steel is a tongue in cheek, a "I'm smarter than you", kind of a thing (at least that's how it appears to me), so seems to be their customer service in dealing with simple questions like barrel steel. Too often, the more successful some people become, the more difficult they become. That's harder to accept within an industry like firearms, which is typically thought of as more close knit and ready to help. Maybe they really do have a new unique process and want to protect it. Who knows? I'm expecting their barrels to be at least as good as any other $200 barrel I might buy, and maybe a little better. I probably can't expect much more than that, but I'll still hope for a little more.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Jeff, if it's photoshopped, LaRue did that, not me. That picture is directly off their website.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Very interesting.
And obviously some of our differences in opinion come from different angles as noted.
Some just want to buy the best basically, and shoot, thats where top line companies come in, the ones I kind of consider ripoffs in a way, but they serve a niche. Like La Rue, if I wanted caps, bumper stickers, seasoning salt, bottle openers and the like I can buy them seperately, I don't want all that built up in my price.
I prefer to research what I want for the most part, and then "order" it built that way.
But I hear ya Ricky, my years and years smith, John Holliger, has a bit on his website or did, about if you want this and that rail and bling and so on, go somewhere else, its not what I do.
Heck for 200 bucks a ready to go barrel, as long as its 1.5 moa or less and lasts 4000 rounds, is as good a deal as any, I don't think you can get a wilson tube for under 200 anymore would be my bet.
But back to customer service when i ask, I want an answer, not a smart azz remark telling me basically how dumb I am, and how smart you are, when you have NO clue what I want, need or will do with something. Heck I might not even know those answers so you DAMN sure don't. Sours me on something really quickly.
The only thing worse is Fulton Armory, and I can't stand them for badmouthing some product innovations, then lesss than a year later making a minor tweak and calling it a break through. I call it a bend over. At least when they gave us FA shirts at Perry we got to take home free wax rags for the car literally...
Like I said, I've made my peace with John Burns, and I understand what he does, does damn well and fills a market. Heck of a guy, heck of a shot, wished my shooting could hold a candle to his.
I'm not a for profit kind of guy, its just how I am, I expect a fair shake but I'm not in it for getting rich. Never have been. My wife reminds me of how much chit I do for free for folks quite often. Works for me though.
Now back to google rearden...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Kahuna
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http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/news/a13919/new-steel-alloy-titanium/Found this in the google search this morning, but now reading a bit slower, I guess it may not be called Rearden, it was in the rearden steel bit at the bottom of the search for rearden news....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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if there is no such thing as rearden and its all fictional, then what are you to expect of a fictional barrel. LOL
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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haha...that's LaRue's shop address I believe.
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haha...that's LaRue's shop address I believe. Yep, that's correct.
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Campfire Ranger
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If you have a small sample of the steel in question, a chemical analysis can be run on that sample, to determine the chemical composition - which will tell you the grade. Second, a microhardness test can be run to learn the base metal hardness, and the presence of any hard surface layer, such as nitriding.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Campfire Tracker
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If you have a small sample of the steel in question, a chemical analysis can be run on that sample, to determine the chemical composition - which will tell you the grade. Second, a microhardness test can be run to learn the base metal hardness, and the presence of any hard surface layer, such as nitriding.
For a $200 barrel of questionable material, I'd just stick a magnet to it and and call it good to go. After seeing the logo and reading about "Rearden Steel" it's pretty obvious they don't want you to know. Mystery as a marketing campaign. Who wudda ever thunk it? I have no idea, maybe they do. I hope it shoots clover leaf groups and I regret not getting one.
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Campfire Ranger
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TWR got one, so we will find out sooner or latter if it lives up to it's mystique. At the very least they should put "corrosion resistant" somewhere in their specifications. The stealth upper I looked at yesterday was well made, I don't care for quad rails and it was heavy however well made.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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if there is no such thing as rearden and its all fictional, then what are you to expect of a fictional barrel. LOL Maybe they're trying to say, it's too good to be true. 
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If you will click on the link below you will see who owns the trademark. https://trademarks.justia.com/owners/austin-precision-products-inc-2453479/The secret plot thickens....... [/quote]Makes sense. If they want to use the "trademark" without hassle, they would have to buy it or pay royalties.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Funny, they've been using it for 3 years now and I've yet to hear a sour note from any owners...
Now tell me the truth, does knowing what something is made of make it any better? Y'all are getting twisted up over Mark's twisted sense of humor or that he just won't tell you the secret ingredients and most here myself included wouldn't know what difference it would make.
As long as it doesn't rust (I've yet to see any reports stating they do) shoots good (the light weight barrels have been living up to their 1 MOA guarantee) has good barrel life (saw one report of 9000 rounds and still doing it's thing, they claim 10,000 round barrel life) I'm perfectly fine with "Rearden" steel and the voo doo that goes along with it.
It's marketing and the steady back log of his rifles proves it's working. Get over it!
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Campfire Ranger
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I was a bit chagrined at my LT "Tim" conversation, however I am am much more puzzled by the vitriol surrounding LaRue and his barrels. Looking at it from his perspective I am inclined to agree that the reardon steel poke is pretty good and a nuanced stance regards a lot going on in this country. Now I must buy one just due to all this controversy!!!
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If I were LaRue I wouldn't tell anyone what it was made of either. If you don't tell people, they'll speculate for three pages on hunting forums about it. It's free advertising.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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And I'd always be a crazy jerk to people, and make sure whoever answers my phone was too.
That's his schtick, it's what makes him stand out from the crowd.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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He ought to send me a free hat.
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you gotta like this about LaRue: ![[Linked Image]](http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww127/tex_n_cal/rickperry_zpsd09687eb.jpg) If I can't get the Mk12 shooting better, I might go for a LaRue replacement barrel, but I doubt I could tell the difference between a Krieger, Noveske, or LaRue...
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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He ought to send me a free hat. I will ask them to send it right away....  ![[Linked Image]](http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff205/Jimmyp50/laRuehat_zpsalxpyr6x.jpg)
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Tex is that the LW barrel?
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Campfire Kahuna
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So we still gonna say, that answering a simple question is this SS or not? with all steel rusts, when you are selling a SS barrel to start with , thats actually a good barrel, is good salesmanship?
Maybe y'all like talking to smart azzes, and like to support them, I don't. I have to deal with tehm all day long in the public, I'm not buying from one.
If they ever answered a question like that to me, they would never see a dime, even if they were the best barrel out there period.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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All steel does rust, even SS, seen it myself. What they could've been saying was their coating is good enough so rust isn't a problem. Who knows, yes they should treat their customers better on the phone and have. I spoke at lengths with one gentleman about why their 1" mounts sat lower than their 30mm versions. We sorted it out and the guy was great to deal with. Caught another guy on a bad day and told him to forget my order. I went another route and was disappointed in the product enough, I sold it and ordered from LaRue, this time the guy was easy to deal with.
So yes, sometimes I will deal with an azz to get a superior product.
Didn't Krieger have a message on their phone for awhile that said they were too busy to answer, just send your gun in and we'll get to it when we can? Weren't they also the ones who took over Millazzo and killed that trigger?
I can name several companies that won't even do business over the phone anymore. Internet has changed the way business is done. Sad as it is.
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Forget the hat, I'm bucking for a T-shirt!
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So we still gonna say, that answering a simple question is this SS or not? with all steel rusts, when you are selling a SS barrel to start with , thats actually a good barrel, is good salesmanship?
Maybe y'all like talking to smart azzes, and like to support them, I don't. I have to deal with tehm all day long in the public, I'm not buying from one.
If they ever answered a question like that to me, they would never see a dime, even if they were the best barrel out there period.
Dang rost, are you saying you were not in on buying one of the 1,000 barrels LaRue sold during their 2-3 day sale? Just for full disclosure, I didn't buy one either. I do have some friends that jumped on the offer. I expect we will start hearing some accuracy reports soon. I personally won't get my panties bunched up because of not knowing about the barrel material. I always thought function and accuracy should be the top tier factors. I would bet we will never get the answer unless someone buys a LaRue barrel, cuts it up and does X-Ray Diffraction analysis. There's a project Rearden steel be damned. Merica, ain't she great.
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Tex is that the LW barrel? My Mk12 has their 18" S2W (strength to weight) barrel which is said to weigh 2.8 lbs stripped, so no, not lightweight. It is stainless, cold hammer forged, and nitrided. You can, by the way, buy their barrels for $289 on their website.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Campfire Kahuna
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All steel does rust, even SS, seen it myself. What they could've been saying was their coating is good enough so rust isn't a problem. Who knows, yes they should treat their customers better on the phone and have. I spoke at lengths with one gentleman about why their 1" mounts sat lower than their 30mm versions. We sorted it out and the guy was great to deal with. Caught another guy on a bad day and told him to forget my order. I went another route and was disappointed in the product enough, I sold it and ordered from LaRue, this time the guy was easy to deal with.
So yes, sometimes I will deal with an azz to get a superior product.
Didn't Krieger have a message on their phone for awhile that said they were too busy to answer, just send your gun in and we'll get to it when we can? Weren't they also the ones who took over Millazzo and killed that trigger?
I can name several companies that won't even do business over the phone anymore. Internet has changed the way business is done. Sad as it is. I think you know me well enough to know that I'm not fighting you, I'm just conversing, at least I hope you know that. I don't do business with Krieger anymore either, have found others... I did with Milazzo when it was him, but not after it was Krieger. I'm dang close to being done with Mc Millan too, but just have not found a similar subsitute.... its just sad you have to deal with smart alecks... I just can't see how that is good for business.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Kahuna
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So we still gonna say, that answering a simple question is this SS or not? with all steel rusts, when you are selling a SS barrel to start with , thats actually a good barrel, is good salesmanship?
Maybe y'all like talking to smart azzes, and like to support them, I don't. I have to deal with tehm all day long in the public, I'm not buying from one.
If they ever answered a question like that to me, they would never see a dime, even if they were the best barrel out there period.
Dang rost, are you saying you were not in on buying one of the 1,000 barrels LaRue sold during their 2-3 day sale? Just for full disclosure, I didn't buy one either. I do have some friends that jumped on the offer. I expect we will start hearing some accuracy reports soon. I personally won't get my panties bunched up because of not knowing about the barrel material. I always thought function and accuracy should be the top tier factors. I would bet we will never get the answer unless someone buys a LaRue barrel, cuts it up and does X-Ray Diffraction analysis. There's a project Rearden steel be damned. Merica, ain't she great. Nope, had no need for a tube at the time. Some folks claim I have to many ARs before the boating accident that is.... I have new barrels never bolted to a gun still laying around.... Yes function should trump anything, BUT if I'm asking is it SS, there is likely a reason, either for weather or the way they die, answer my damn question in a legit way, lets have a discussion, not a remark... if you don't have time for the discussion, then don't answer the phone. Personally I prefer to email all my questions so that folks have TIME to answer the questions I have, and don't get rushed or stressed. Prefer to order that way in the end to, when ever I have a bit of time to do it relaxed...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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As many boating accident we have down here the next thing you know, boats will be outlawed. I think our West Texas lakes have seen the water level raised by several feet just due to these types of accidents. Hehe.
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Dead horse I know... but if you KNOW they are SS why won't they just say it.
I don't think their barrels are stainless, or they'd just say so & I don't intend to buy one to cut up to find out for sure either........there are other barrels of known composition that are equally good or better. Larue builds some great 3 shot rifles & uppers with their barrels, but we all know that that really doesn't mean a thing though unless they can demonstrate 2-10 shot groups that average under 1 MOA. MM
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I know Jeff, sometimes discussions can be fun!
Montana Man brings up a good point, they are only guaranteed for 3 shots and that just won't do around here. I suppose I'll have to run mine through the 20 shot challenge and see where it stands in the end.
And remember I bought the light weight barrel. I could care less about 1/4 MOA and am probably just an MOA shooter anyway these days. I just want a light weight barrel to take the place of my Noveske 18" SPR. Killing coyotes is a lot more fun than punching paper.
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Montana Man brings up a good point, they are only guaranteed for 3 shots and that just won't do around here.
I just want a light weight barrel to take the place of my Noveske 18" SPR. Killing coyotes is a lot more fun than punching paper.
I was just being really facetious; any barrel that CONSISTENTLY groups like Larue does for 3 shots, day in day out, will serve any useful purpose you can imagine, very well, including killing coyotes. MM
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Campfire Kahuna
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I had a LOT of fun punching paper, and there in is likely a big difference. MO X ring is different than MOC obviously, and different needs for different guns.
I"m not much on yote hunting at all, will smack a couple here as needed, but don't get excited about it that much and don't make a point to purposely hunt em.
But I'm nuts, OTOH about pigs, would go out of my way to whack pigs... who knows why...
Ain't no chit that the La Rue stuff works, thats one of the great things about the company, they won't turn out bad stuff, it will work and be accurate enough. Maybe not enough so for some, but for most.
And thats a point I sorely missed in all this... tunnel vision and all, I guess those that really demand top line accuracy don't even consider factory stuff and its cost, and really snicker a bit when they are having uppers built that are more accurate for the same amount of money and getting what they want.
We sure gotta connect one of these days to at least shake hands, all of us on these threads! TWR is at the top of my list. Now if I could just stop wasting all my vacation time in Alaska...though I think its really not that much of a waste. LOL
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Tex, not thinking to buy a DD barrel right now, may be replacing one however.
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you buy one of their barrel and you call and say it won't group the way they promised you it would, then do they replace without question or do you have to threaten to sue to get satisfaction from their guarantee?
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I see the 1" guarantee regarding their complete rifles, but did not find anything regarding parts, to include barrels. No deal breaker for me. I also noted that someone who had recently ordered a barrel during their sale had his already and was getting excellent accuracy. Gives me hope for getting mine soon.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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I think the e-mail stated the 1 MOA guarantee but per Mark Larue "if you ain't happy, I ain't happy" but I've only sent one item back. An Aimpoint mount that I ordered wrong, no problems in the return.
But truthfully, almost any barrel will do 3 shot MOA
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Campfire 'Bwana
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But truthfully, almost any barrel will do 3 shot MOA Consistently? I don't believe so. Evidence the challenge. I think the e-mail stated the 1 MOA guarantee If you find it on yours, let me know where. I don't see one on mine. But I'm not all that concerned about a guarantee. I didn't see one when I ordered so it obviously wasn't a deal breaker for me, just like knowing the steel type wasn't. Obviously, LaRue is using this sale as a marketing promo to get the word out that their barrels are very accurate. To then send an inferior product or one they won't stand behind, would not go far to achieve that goal but instead do exactly the opposite. It will be fine.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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My chromed lined DD Barrel will do 1 MOA for three shots with the Hornady 60 gr V-Max and 26 gr of Varget. This is the only chromed line barrel i own all other are SS Barrels. This is a three shot group from one AR i built, SS Shilen Match in 204 Ruger. First group from the rifle. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/bea175/204Group.jpg)
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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I have a DD chrome barrel that will do close to an inch for 10 with 55 grain Hornady factory Vmax ammo, the new DD V11 I am getting ready to send back to them to "rethink" the barrel, but want to shoot it with a different scope and mount first.
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3 shot groups look good but seldom hold up to 10, shoot the challenge... I think I saw that on arfcom's industry page and it may not be official so please disregard. However I think since Mark's main goal was to show how accurate his barrels are, he ain't gonna let a dog slip through. My Colt chrome lined pencil barrel is a 1.5 moa shooter, out to 400 yards but that's 3 shots too. Which now 3 shots don't impress me, even 5 doesn't convince me now, dang that wareagle guy...
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Why stop at 10? If we're gonna shoot two 10 shot groups we might as well make it one 20 shot group.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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How about 5, 3 shot groups on the same target shot back to back?
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Campfire Kahuna
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Why stop at 10? If we're gonna shoot two 10 shot groups we might as well make it one 20 shot group. Works just fine for me. Makes it almost just like our matches. You can't keep 20 snug, you loose. Makes a person a much better/relaxed shooter IMHO. RE barrel accuracy guarantees, folks like Mark, if they guarantee the uppers to X degree, the barrels will do the same as long as they are put on correctly, stress free etc... and typically in isntances like this, if you can't get it to shoot, they ask for it back and send you another, sometimes after seeing if they can get it to shoot, but generally just send another regardless, its just good business. Me, I'd take it back and shoot it first if I was Mark... some folks can't put a good gun together, some don't have good ammo and some cant' shoot. Side note I did send a TC renegade 54 barrel back once.... told em the gun wouldn't shoot better than about 3 inches at 100 with irons... they sent it back with a target, about 3-4 inches at 100 and said it passed their requirements. I told TC they sucked big time and ordered a green mountain and told them so, sent pictures of those groups in the 54 with 565 grain bullets back to them, ordre of 1 to 1.5 inches with irons at 100... MUCH better. TC never replied... LOL. At least I got my old junk barrel back.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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valid point, I noticed that LaRue supplies a special barrel nut and I believe they have a proprietary rail system. There is the possibility of building less than a 100% rifle with their barrel by someone.
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Campfire Kahuna
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That can always be the case. Minor things like the tubes not lined up and tight, gas tube touching a bit, not mating the thread surfaces on the barrel nut/reciever, and so on. Just minor things that can make a difference and can add up. Or not if you have a super hummer tube sometimes.
Its one reason I cut away one "tit" on any kind of barrel nut, I don't want that gas tube rubbing. I can't prove it matters, but in my mind it matters.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Why stop at 10? If we're gonna shoot two 10 shot groups we might as well make it one 20 shot group. There is a happy medium between having a big enough sample size and introducing shooter error. Not a whole lot changes in group size between 10 and 20 shots unless the shooter causes it. That is what makes a 20 round group even more challenging; although more of a challenge for the shooter than the rifle.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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Campfire Kahuna
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I can't recall, but isn't 7 shots somehow statistically significant.?
I know it took me a lot of shooting to be able to relax enough to learn to put 22 plus shots on a target without screwing up more than 50% of them or so. Mind you still a winning group typiccally but with irons you always have aiming/holding errors.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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You guys keep talking about this and I am going to have to give larue $500 just to see what all the commotion is about.
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There is a happy medium between having a big enough sample size and introducing shooter error.
Not really; as long as a human is holding the gun, there can shooter error whether the group be 1 or 100 shots. If you really want to know what the gun can do, lock it up in a mechanical device & fire 30 shots............then there will be a statistically valid picture of what the gun & the ammo can do. Anything else has shooter induced influence. MM
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True, but for those of us that don't have a machine rest, multiple 7 - 10 shot groups are a better representation than 3 - 5. Here is the link again for those who haven't had a chance to read it. Let us know if you have evidence to disprove anything Molon found in his testing. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/279218_The_Trouble_With_3_Shot_Groups.html
Last edited by wareagle700; 07/10/15.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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From the link that you posted:
"Rick Jamison, the author of the Precision Reloading column in Shooting Times magazine approaches accuracy testing in a very scientific manner. He uses a machine rest for testing and fires 10-shot groups. Here are his own words on the subject from one of his articles:
There are stories of a single bullet that for no explained reason flies out of what might have been a tight cluster. This often occurs with a three-shot string and many times with a five-shot string. If you're lucky enough to fire a group without a flier, you can end up with a very tight group. However, usually what happens if another five or seven shots are fired to complete a 10-shot string, other bullets fill in the space between the main group and the flier to make a reasonably rounded group. Ten shots are a more reliable indicator when it comes to predicting what a load is likely to do in the future.
The problem with 10-shot groups is that when you report them, everyone thinks you aren't shooting very well or that the ammunition is not good because the group sizes are so much larger than three- or five-shot groups. Also, when we're firing three- or five-shot groups with a flier, it is only natural to assume that it was caused by a flinch or "pulling" the shot. Therefore, since the flier was our own fault, the tendency is to eliminate it from any reporting of group size.
This is one of the advantages of using a machine rest... The machine rest reduces the human element.
After using this machine rest for several years, I have determined that a 1.5-inch 10-shot group at 100 yards... is a good one. "
MM
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I don't doubt the statistical relevance of a ten shot string.
But the real world value that shooters place on a ten shot group is highly suspect.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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MM,
We are one the same page as far as a machine rest goes. 10 shot groups will show human error, thats why we shoot them. Once you see it, you know you need to work on it.
Blue,
It all depends on what the shooter is going for. Some are happy with 3 shots. The debate is those claiming "MOA all day long" and only putting 3 shots on a piece of paper. Its just not enough to base actual accuracy calims.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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MM,
We are one the same page as far as a machine rest goes. 10 shot groups will show human error, thats why we shoot them. Once you see it, you know you need to work on it.
The human error only matters if it's greater than the total variance in the gun & ammo; to determine that, you need a baseline. Without the baseline to determine the gun/ammo variance & capability & just proceeding to start shooting ten shot groups, you really have no idea what is the gun/ammo & what is the shooter. Obviously, small groups mean good gun, good ammo, good shooter. Unless you are shooting matches that require 10 shot strings, or you're into self flagellation, it just really doesn't matter much. MM
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****This isn't a commentary or rant about anyone here, just a general observation about something that I think most shooters could improve on****
I suppose my irritation with the entire idea of "MOA" shooting is that people shoot to accomplish the goal of "MOA" rather than what they need to actually do. Which is why I think we have gravitated toward 3 shot groups, to chase the elusive "MOA" that we might not even need.
I've never shot a deer that a 2.5MOA gun wouldn't have worked for. And never fired more than four shots while hunting (the only time I fired four was once when I shot two deer).
So every year I fire one magazine full (4 shots) at one of those targets with the 2"ish orange diamonds. And all four shots, for as long as I've owned the gun, have landed in that orange diamond. Sometimes clustered tightly, sometimes spread out a bit more. But always well within what I need for my hunting. I fire four because I don't think I'll ever reload to shoot at deer, and I just want to be accurate enough for my hunting, and life is good.
It really doesn't matter to me what 10 shots will do because honestly, by the second group of our challenge my neck was so cricked up I had a headache and I had eye fatigue from trying to squint into the eyebox of the too-low scope. There was a ton of shooter error involved, that I'll never experience in the field (because I don't ever carry that janky setup), so I don't sweat it.
My complaint isn't necessarily with ten shot groups, but with shooters who chase goals that are pretty arbitrary to what they actually do with their guns.
For example, for the shooting I do being able to hit 10-12" plates offhand, quickly, at 100 yards is much more important than shooting off of a bench. So that's what I practice and what I've gotten pretty good at. And a lot of the people I shoot with need that same skill, but it's a difficult skill to develop so instead they shoot groups off of a bench and brag about "MOA".
If ten shot groups are useful to people, great. If ten shot groups are fun for people, great. I shot them too so I could play along in the challenge.
But I wish that the shooting community would gravitate more towards shooters developing skills that are applicable to what they do, rather than just using the litmus test of MOA group shooting.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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It matters to me, that I and two of my cheap non custom made guns can shoot close to a MOA for 20 shots. Harder will be 50 yards and off hand for 10 shots, those will be some big groups.
However for the sake of argument, if you cannot or don't want to do it that is fine, its kind of like the gay marriage thing. If your gay and want to get married, it is not my business so I say go for it, just leave me and my church out of it.
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Different strokes for different folks I guess. The "Challenge" was an attempt to see what results people are getting from different rifles as well as a way to bring to light those "MOA all day" groups aren't as common as some may claim. As for real life scenarios, I have another challenge in the works for that.
Last edited by wareagle700; 07/10/15.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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****This isn't a commentary or rant about anyone here, just a general observation about something that I think most shooters could improve on****
I suppose my irritation with the entire idea of "MOA" shooting is that people shoot to accomplish the goal of "MOA" rather than what they need to actually do. Which is why I think we have gravitated toward 3 shot groups, to chase the elusive "MOA" that we might not even need.
I've never shot a deer that a 2.5MOA gun wouldn't have worked for. And never fired more than four shots while hunting (the only time I fired four was once when I shot two deer).
So every year I fire one magazine full (4 shots) at one of those targets with the 2"ish orange diamonds. And all four shots, for as long as I've owned the gun, have landed in that orange diamond. Sometimes clustered tightly, sometimes spread out a bit more. But always well within what I need for my hunting. I fire four because I don't think I'll ever reload to shoot at deer, and I just want to be accurate enough for my hunting, and life is good.
It really doesn't matter to me what 10 shots will do because honestly, by the second group of our challenge my neck was so cricked up I had a headache and I had eye fatigue from trying to squint into the eyebox of the too-low scope. There was a ton of shooter error involved, that I'll never experience in the field (because I don't ever carry that janky setup), so I don't sweat it.
My complaint isn't necessarily with ten shot groups, but with shooters who chase goals that are pretty arbitrary to what they actually do with their guns.
For example, for the shooting I do being able to hit 10-12" plates offhand, quickly, at 100 yards is much more important than shooting off of a bench. So that's what I practice and what I've gotten pretty good at. And a lot of the people I shoot with need that same skill, but it's a difficult skill to develop so instead they shoot groups off of a bench and brag about "MOA".
If ten shot groups are useful to people, great. If ten shot groups are fun for people, great. I shot them too so I could play along in the challenge.
But I wish that the shooting community would gravitate more towards shooters developing skills that are applicable to what they do, rather than just using the litmus test of MOA group shooting.
I have shot more than a few deer where a 2.5 moa gun would not have done it at all. And other animals also. Just depends on what you are trying to do. We shot 22 shot groups generally so 10 really doesn't say a damn thing for us when we were shooting. The smallest groups were 10 shots. Most were at least 12. To me though, once you have verified that you have a gun capable of a lung hit at 1000, a head shot at 500 or whatever you need it to do, and its capable of htat consistently, then 2 things are MORE important than anything. Verifying zero to the max distance and keeping up with those verifications and what changes in pressure, temp etc... may do to those zero's.(including wind dope) AND the ability to put the first shot dead nuts every time, day in and out, of your "moa" requirement. The more shots you put into a group, after you know the combo is proven, simply proves whether you are a good shooter or a lucky shooter. A good shooter can put one shot a day into the middle or 100 in a row.... A lucky shooter can often put the first shot fairly close and actually in there fairly often, but gets to edgy to follow it up with more. The subconsciuos mind takes over and not only laughs, but kicks the shooters azz. And if you think this only matters to targets you are wrong.... by shooting a LOT of targets and being somewhat good at it, there was a streak of years that dumping a deer at 500 or so yards was gravy, nothing to think about, roll the dials and pull the trigger and go get the deer. If you think thats not what you need to do thats fine, but realize if you are good enough at 500, how gravy a split second shot at 100 give or take then becomes. Auto pilot. Easy. Peasy. you know the rest. I'm still most impressed with folks that can put one arrow or one bullet a day, smack on, day after day...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Gotta agree with all of that.........
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I played this game after a few months of shooting pistols against a timer, mostly double taps and took a break to get ready for my half marathon. Not the best training for a bench rest contest but I played anyway.
I've never shot 20 rounds at a coyote or anything else but paper. I could care less if 3 shot groups are the industry standard or if it's a hundred needed to qualify.
What I do care about is being a good shot on game. So the more confident I am in my guns, the better I am when it counts. Forcing myself to shoot 20 rounds is good practice but I will stand by my own 5 shot groups to test guns and loads. Then get off the bench and shoot field positions that fit my hunting.
This is all just a fun challenge and should be taken as such.
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****This isn't a commentary or rant about anyone here, just a general observation about something that I think most shooters could improve on****
I suppose my irritation with the entire idea of "MOA" shooting is that people shoot to accomplish the goal of "MOA" rather than what they need to actually do. Which is why I think we have gravitated toward 3 shot groups, to chase the elusive "MOA" that we might not even need.
I've never shot a deer that a 2.5MOA gun wouldn't have worked for. And never fired more than four shots while hunting (the only time I fired four was once when I shot two deer).
So every year I fire one magazine full (4 shots) at one of those targets with the 2"ish orange diamonds. And all four shots, for as long as I've owned the gun, have landed in that orange diamond. Sometimes clustered tightly, sometimes spread out a bit more. But always well within what I need for my hunting. I fire four because I don't think I'll ever reload to shoot at deer, and I just want to be accurate enough for my hunting, and life is good.
It really doesn't matter to me what 10 shots will do because honestly, by the second group of our challenge my neck was so cricked up I had a headache and I had eye fatigue from trying to squint into the eyebox of the too-low scope. There was a ton of shooter error involved, that I'll never experience in the field (because I don't ever carry that janky setup), so I don't sweat it.
My complaint isn't necessarily with ten shot groups, but with shooters who chase goals that are pretty arbitrary to what they actually do with their guns.
For example, for the shooting I do being able to hit 10-12" plates offhand, quickly, at 100 yards is much more important than shooting off of a bench. So that's what I practice and what I've gotten pretty good at. And a lot of the people I shoot with need that same skill, but it's a difficult skill to develop so instead they shoot groups off of a bench and brag about "MOA".
If ten shot groups are useful to people, great. If ten shot groups are fun for people, great. I shot them too so I could play along in the challenge.
But I wish that the shooting community would gravitate more towards shooters developing skills that are applicable to what they do, rather than just using the litmus test of MOA group shooting.
Great post Bluedreaux. Also, I place a lot more importance to where the FIRST cold barrel shot goes than anything else.
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Great post Bluedreaux. Also, I place a lot more importance to where the FIRST cold barrel shot goes than anything else.
Do you believe that it goes somewhere other than where the ones that follow it go? Bluedreaux, I agree with the premise of what you said, however there is value in knowing what the precision of your gun is (for most guns). How do you determine that gun is mechanically sound and will do that task(s) that you require of it? How do you determine that it is sound unless you check- 1) That it is reliable enough to do the job? 2) That it places it's round with enough precision to consistently hit the target? 3) That it remains accurate by maintains zero? I'll ignore for know the MASSIVE benefit in practical use of being able to group shoot on bullseye's for score, how os that you do something as fundamental as knowing what size target the gun can hit, and/or whether it is still zeroed? Can you have a true zero (POI/POA) using 3 rounds? Is it statistically possible? Using you 2.5 MOA gun example, since any 4 rounds can be anywhere within that 2.5moa circle, when the 4 rounds impact closer to the edge rather than the middle, how do you determine that it wasn't because of a zero shift instead of random distribution? On the whole "MOA" thing, again I agree to a point. However, if someone is going to talk about precision and how accurate their gun is, than talk about what it will really do, not some BS cherry picked nonsense. When you talk "accuracy" you are talking about what size target that it will hit consistently. You can not have a "MOA" gun that does not hit an MOA target on demand. A couple 3 round groups tell you absolutely nothing in practical use of what that gun will do. A couple 5 round groups are little better.
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Do you believe that it goes somewhere other than where the ones that follow it go? Yes, sometimes they do.
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Then you have a broken gun.
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Then you have a broken gun. It's TAK-like statements like that, that make it so hard to take you seriously. Of course the first shot will sometimes go to a different place than the following shots. Just like shot number six will sometimes go to a different place than shot number five or seven. If an unbroken gun will always send subsequent shots to the same hole as the first shot, what's the point in the ten shot groups you keep skadooshing in your pants about?
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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It wasn't sugar coated but Form is right. Cold bore shift is a shooter problem unless you have something wrong with your rifle. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_17/1422_Cold_Bore_Shot_or_Cold_Bore_Shooter_.html
Last edited by wareagle700; 07/11/15.
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Blue, between you and form, you have to remember that form is likely trying like I do, to hit the same hair or spot on target every time.
And you are shooting for kill shot under time constraints also.. IE Hunting and then the 3 gun stuff.
Totally different in many ways.
TWR... some bullesye shooting, shooting the rapid fire parts of bullseye, was some of hte best ever cross training for quick but precise trigger control with the AR.. amazed how much good pistol shooting did to my rifle shooting.
We never shot 22 shot groups from a bench, that was part of the thing alluring to me aobut highpower. Yeah we wore heavy cheating jackets and such, but it was all either sling supported or body supported only. When you learn to shoot a lot into the same area, that way, and quickly, you become really mean from the field hunting positions, grab what you can for support if anythign but you have the confidence to flip the crosshairs over there and the gun goes bang instantly without having to think about the shot really, generally speaking... I learned to shoot so quickly on game that I became paranoid right after the shot, did I remember to check the target, background, etc.... If that makes sense.
Wife also said the shooting of game was way different after we started competition, she could see me slow myself and breathing down, settle the gun etc... and she could almost tell when it would go bang generally and then a follow through and big gulp of air..... not what I did before competition.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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This is getting rich. Any gun that doesn't put shots 2-10 through hole #1 is "broken"? Is that seriously what you agree with? Any gun that isn't capable of firing EVERY shot through a single hole, even from a machine rest, is "broken"? Because if shots #2-#10 might wander, #1 can too. How absurd is it to tell Scenar that his 1/2MOA AR is "broken" because all the shots weren't in the same hole?
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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I don't think that's what he was saying. That's sure not what I was saying either.
I read it as if he were talking about cold bore shots landing outside a normal group. If they do, it's either a problem with the shooter or the rifle. Predicting where a cold bore shot will land in the group on the other hand, that's funny.
Last edited by wareagle700; 07/11/15.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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Agreed. You have to keep in mind that reality sometimes doesn't apply here.
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I don't think that's what he was saying. That's sure not what I was saying either.
I read it as if he were talking about cold bore shots landing outside a normal group. If they do, it's either a problem with the shooter or the rifle. Predicting where a cold bore shot will land in the group on the other hand, that's funny. Maybe that's what Form was addressing but that's not what he said, in his usual braggadocios, over the top way of speaking about anything and everything he opens his mouth about. Do you believe that it goes somewhere other than where the ones that follow it go? Yes, sometimes they do. Then you have a broken gun. What he actually said was that if shots 2-10 go somewhere different than shot #1, the gun is broken. Which is an absurd notion, since all the shots are going to different places.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Then you have a broken gun. What he actually said was that if shots 2-10 go somewhere different than shot #1, the gun is broken. Which is an absurd notion, since all the shots are going to different places. I won't speak for Formidilosus but the way I took it was if shots 2-10 land in a different group than shot 1, then something is wrong with the gun. Of course, this does happen and is common but is usually a problem with the shooter. I wouldn't think anyone would expect all shots to land in the same hole. If so they need to visit the Challenge thread.
Last edited by wareagle700; 07/11/15.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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Maybe he meant it that way. But, like I did with TAK, I've just taken to reading Form's posts in the most outrageous way that they can be interpreted and so far I've been safe. Who knows.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Unlike TAK, I have noticed Form is usually right. Abrasive at times, but right.
Last edited by wareagle700; 07/11/15.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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Reading comprehension isn't a strong suit for everyone....
That's correct blue, all shots go to different places. So in knowing that, how does the "first cold barrel shot" have any relevance? Lots of people talk about "cold bore" shots like they know something and that "cold bore shots" are somehow different than the rest, yet it is all nonsense. Guns fire in a cone, it's not like shot #1 will somehow always land within a .25 inch circle but shots #2, 3, 4, 5, etc go somewhere else. All shots will randomly fall within the real group size, with more shots landing closer to center than to the edge. Unless you have somehow developed a way to know which "bullets" are going to land closer to the edge......
On your other comments, is there something on your mind? Braggadocios, over the top? No, I'm more interested real information getting passed rather than feelings, "I thinks", or idiocy.
So, again-
How do you determine that gun is mechanically sound and will do that task(s) that you require of it?
How do you determine that it is sound unless you check-
1) That it is reliable enough to do the job?
2) That it places it's round with enough precision to consistently hit the target?
3) That it remains accurate by maintaining zero?
I'll ignore for know the MASSIVE benefit in practical use of being able to group shoot on bullseye's for score, how is it that you do something as fundamental as knowing what size target the gun can hit, and/or whether it is still zeroed? Can you have a true zero (POI/POA) using 3 rounds? Is it statistically possible?
Using you 2.5 MOA gun example, since any 4 rounds can be anywhere within that 2.5moa circle, when the 4 rounds impact closer to the edge rather than the middle, how do you determine that it wasn't because of a zero shift instead of random distribution?
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Unlike TAK, I have noticed Form is usually right. Abrasive at times, but right. I suppose that's the downside to the written word. There is absolutely no emotion when I write. I use forums for the exchanging of knowledge, nothing else. Misconceptions, old wives tales, inexperience, lack of knowledge, and "my daddy said so", has held back the skill and practical application of shooting for most of our history. That has only started to change at a faster rate because of the Internet and forums allowing such a rapid exchange of information. As silly as it might seem just about every week at work I get the "well I read on -----insert Internet forum here---- that_____". 9 times out of 10 whatever they read is horribly wrong. People have no idea how bad information can effect very real things. Wareagle's 10 round challange has shown just how unrealistic "sub MOA all day long" is, and maybe that will help to get people to stop chasing it. Shooters need to get off the bench and learn to use their guns to hit varying targets at varying ranges from varying positions under tight time standards. That's practical shooting.
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Reading comprehension isn't a strong suit for everyone....
Truth.
Using you 2.5 MOA gun example, since any 4 rounds can be anywhere within that 2.5moa circle, when the 4 rounds impact closer to the edge rather than the middle, how do you determine that it wasn't because of a zero shift instead of random distribution?
I don't. And I don't care. Because the zero shift, or shooter error, or inaccurate ammo, or bullet weight that doesn't fit the twist, or random distribution, or any number of potential causes for the dispersion is always within that 2.5MOA circle and has been for the last 8 years or so that I've owned that rifle. And that's all I need for what I do with that rifle. So I don't obsess over things that other people say should matter, that have no bearing on what I actually need to the gun to do, and I just enjoy it for what it is. _____________________________________________________ I skimmed over most of the middle of the post, I assume all of the questions were geared towards proving that it's important to know where your bullets will land and that ten shot groups are a good way to determine that. And I don't have any argument with that. But what I've realized, and what I tried to stress in my other recent post, was that having an accurate rifle and knowing where all of those shots will land from the bench.... 1-Is relative. Because like my 2.5MOA rifle, 1" accuracy isn't necessary for what I do with the rifle. 2-Doesn't a rifleman make. It's a piece of the whole. It's the piece that people focus on the most because it's a piece that you can (within reason) buy skill in and accomplish while sitting in the shade. Shooting from odd positions, from unsupported positions, at multiple targets, under field stress are also part of that puzzle that makes a rifleman a rifleman. And that was the point I was trying to make yesterday. If our goal is to prove that we're riflemen, at some point we're going to have to step away from the bench and strive for something more than just MOA groups.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Reading comprehension isn't a strong suit for everyone.... The importance of the POI of the 1st cold bore shot and it's consistency come into play when you're trying to kill something other than a piece of paper. Shots 2-10 mean nothing the majority of the time as targets tend to leave when you miss them. I hope you can work the rest of it out for yourself.
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Blue,
It wouldn't take reading a whole lot of my posts to see my disdain for obsessive bench shooting. But as you say- you don't read what I actually write, so I guess you respond with what you believe I said...?
As to your post above, there is just about zero that I disagree with.
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The importance of the POI of the 1st cold bore shot and it's consistency come into play when you're trying to kill something other than a piece of paper. Shots 2-10 mean nothing the majority of the time as targets tend to leave when you miss them.
I hope you can work the rest of it out for yourself. In a proper functioning rifle, there is no "1st shot cold bore and its consistency". A huge part of my life is spent killing things other than paper. The upper end of the sniping community has finally moved passed "cold bore shift" nonsense. The cold bore shot will fall somewhere within the "cone" or group and you have no idea where. You can spend 10 days stroking your gun firing 1 round at the target a day or just fire 10 rounds at one time. In the end you'll get the same size and location of the group(s). If you believe in "1st cold bore shot and its consistentcy" with a properly functioning rifle then you are part of the "Misconceptions, old wives tales, inexperience, lack of knowledge, and "my daddy said so", group.
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If I shoot to kill from a tree stand its a hand held rifle in the sitting position, usually no rest. The confidence that the rifle will put a bullet a half inch away from the spot I am aiming at is why I shoot guns off the bench, to determine the rifles precision, a dog that sprays 4-5 inch groups at 100 yards with 3-4 loads and 2-3 scopes is just gone at a loss. Other folks can live with that, I refuse to do so.
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So now we are back to my rifle is broke. Good grief. I think I'll follow Professor Internet's advice and leave. No need to argue over nothing with a level 5 ![[Linked Image]](http://photos.imageevent.com/lucky/buckwheat/giant/kFWqx.jpg)
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Blues gun repeatably does what he needs it to, consistently.
Thats as much as it needs to.
I would puke my guts out with a gun that innaccurate, but in all honesty if I was taking 300 yard and less body shots on deer, it would not matter much.
Being thats not all I do, and a 300 yard head shot is something I have no isses with at times (considering conditions etc...) it would not work to have that gun.
Bottom line we all have different needs.
I know clean bore shots can sometimes be nuts. Cold bore I've never really had an issue with, and if you do, it tends to be a shooter error generally... IMHO
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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what is a cold bore shot? seriously during hunting season I check my zero about every week with 1-2 shots from the gun I am hunting with, usually off the tailgate of a truck using a front bag only. It don't shoot as good as off the bench that way for some reason...I guess its them cold bores?
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All this because LaRue won't reveal what their barrels are made of... Oh, and I did order one, so we'll see how it shoots once it arrives. I'll be sure and report back.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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at this point, LR is the only one that won't answer the question..... says a LOT about something, marketing, arrogance, I'm not sure.
One thing, you can bet your tube will shoot well enough to satisfy most folks.
Jimmy, one reason for shooting, is to realize that offhand vs slung up vs bipod, vs bench may well give you different repeatable offset impact/zero's
You shoot a lot and thats good. I'm lazy.. I check my zero before season,sometimes I'm really lazy as if the first round falls within my predicted fallout zone, I'm done. I won't check again till the next year unless something demands it.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Not that he needs my help, but you guys who are arguing with Formid need to understand that his explanation isn't even really about shooting, it's about statistics and probability.
Using you 2.5 MOA gun example, since any 4 rounds can be anywhere within that 2.5moa circle, when the 4 rounds impact closer to the edge rather than the middle, how do you determine that it wasn't because of a zero shift instead of random distribution?
I don't. And I don't care. Because the zero shift, or shooter error, or inaccurate ammo, or bullet weight that doesn't fit the twist, or random distribution, or any number of potential causes for the dispersion is always within that 2.5MOA circle and has been for the last 8 years or so that I've owned that rifle. Actually, if that's your explanation then you might realize that you aren't basing your zero off a 3- or 4-shot group, but rather a group that probably numbers in the hundreds, fired over time at dozens of targets, cold barrel, warm barrel, etc. As much as the thought may appall you, you are basically agreeing with Formid. If you fire a 10-shot group, the first 3 might be one near POA, one towards 3 o'clock and one towards 6 o'clock. Would you question your well established zero if this happened? The next three might be a little high and to the left. This isn't because the barrel is getting warm, it's simply probability at work, with everything eventually balancing back to the mean. Heck flip a coin 4 times and get 3 heads and 1 tails, what do you make of that? The point is, 3-4 shots is not enough data points to judge your true zero... there is 360 degrees and infinite distances of dispersion to account for, and by your own admission you are acknowledging that. As far as cold bore shot #1 vs. 2-10, I don't think Formid is saying they need to go into the same hole. Rather, they need to go int the same GROUP. Fire 5 10-shot groups on the same target and let your barrel cool down between each GROUP. If you end up with two different groups, with the #1's going into one group, and #2-10's going into another distinct group, then yes, you have a broken gun.
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your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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if 20 shots of federal gold medal match shot with a known good 25 power scope in a good solid scope mount using a bulls bag and duplicated by 5 shooters go into an 8 inch pattern at 100 yards is the gun broken or does it meet your needs adequately and is not broken! I mean is it two groups or one or whatever !
It really depends on your application. Frankly I have seen people shoot that size group at 25 yards and are damn proud of their skill. I have seen this many times at a local indoor rifle range. Diversity is what makes us hole, I mean whole. Blue I just want to say for the record that I respect your diversity. 😄
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Not that he needs my help, but you guys who are arguing with Formid need to understand that his explanation isn't even really about shooting, it's about statistics and probability.
No, it's not. His explanations are just generalized & are far from any real statistical explanation. MM
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No, it's not. His explanations are just generalized & are far from any real statistical explanation.
MM
Yes they are generalized, however regal me with how you determine that the gun is mechanically sound and will do the task(s) that you require of it? How do you determine- 1) That it is reliable enough to do the job? 2) That it places it's round with enough precision to consistently hit the target? 3) That it remains accurate by maintaining zero? I'll ignore for know the MASSIVE benefit in practical use of being able to group shoot on bullseye's for score, how is it that you do something as fundamental as knowing what size target the gun can hit, and/or whether it is still zeroed? Can you have a true zero (POI/POA) using 3 rounds? Is it statistically possible? How many rounds/groups do you feel/need to fire to know that 95%(as an example) of all rounds fired will fall within a specific size target? If you don't do/know that, then how do you determine what targets you can and can not hit? With what percentage of certainty? It's often bantered on this board that you shouldn't take a shot at an animal unless you are _____ percent sure of a first round hit (usually 80% to 90%). If like the vast majority, you don't do any of the above, how can you even come up with an idea of how certain you are to hit the the animal based on just mechanical accuracy, let alone take into account all the issues that field shooting entails such as shooting position, fatigue, wind, animal movement, etc? rost, I do want to have a discussion and get your thoughts an differing zeros bass upon different shooting positions. TWR, it's your thread so we can discuss here or I can start a new one if you like?
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Why do I, in both personal and professional life, use multiple ten round groups to determine the baseline precision of every gun? Because it works. I have been fortunate to work at organizations that place an exceedingly high emphasis on shooting skill with almost unlimited resources. Last year I fired a bit over 42,000 rifle rounds with every single one of them being scored/measured. That is not at all an unusual amount.
I didn't always believe it. I very much used to be in the "3 rounds tests the rifle, 5 rounds tests the shooter" camp. Then several years ago I started working somewhere that placed an unusually high emphasis on marksmanship and the standard rifle/carbine drills and tests were shot on 25m pistol bulls eye (B8's) from muzzle to 200 yards from all positions. Just about every drill or test was based around 10 round groups. You zeroed with 10 rounds, scored with at least ten rounds, and every morning you confirmed zero with at least one 10 round group for score. There were/are no "oppsies", no "flyers", no "pulled shots", no excuses. Failing a test or missing a single shot could be the end of your job.
The explanation of why they do that? Because the best shooters and couches in the world- NRA High Masters, USPSA GM's, top 3 gunners, guys like Bryan Litz, etc. told them that was the way to do it. And through a couple decades of experience has proven that it works.
Even still I had my doubts initially so after work one Friday I took a recce M4 (16in match AR15) and stacked multiple target on top of each other. Now I knew that gun consistently shot sub MOA for 3 rounds at 100 yards, but also knew that I couldn't gaurantee it could hit a 1 MOA target.
So I had one target as a backer that caught all rounds. I fired 5x three round groups at five fresh targets and one that caught all 15 rounds. Then I fired 3x five round groups at 3 fresh targets and one that caught all 15 rounds. And then I fired 2x ten round groups on the French targets. And I also had the backer that had all 50 shots on it.
The result-
3 round groups averaged just under 1 MOA, yet the target with all the 3 rounds groups in it was just under 2 MOA. Of course looking at the seperate targets it was plain to see that those "sub MOA" 3 round groups had a nasty habit of not hitting the target in the same place.
The 5 round groups averaged something around 1.2-1.3 MOA, with the target that had all 15 rounds in it being right at 1.8 MOA. Hmmmm.
The two 10 round groups averaged almost exactly 2 MOA, with the target with both on it being around 2.1 MOA or so.
And then backer with all 50 shots had an extreme spread of 2.2 something MOA.
One of my teammates was good with statistics and did the math that a single 10 round group offered something in the high 80 to low 90% range of where all rounds fired will land. Three 10 round groups was in the high 90% range.
After we got electronic target systems I was able to do this many more times. Always the same results. Since following those standards I no longer have "off call" shots. I am much better able judge what shots are makable and which aren't, and have a solid grasp of the likelihood of hitting and know how to adjust the shot to make those numbers go up.
What does all that gibberish mean to the guys that just want to buy a rifle, zero and shoot animals? It depends. If all your doing is shooting deer at 100-200 yards than it really doesn't make a difference. The error present is a couple 3 round groups during zeroing is able to mask itself inside the target size. However, if you start trying to consistently kill game or targets past 200-300 yards than ALL of it matters. Those small inconsistencies and errors start adding up to lots of misses and low percentage odds.
It is nothing for those "half MOA 3 round" guys with hunting scopes, to have 3-4 MOA of error built in for that 400 yard shot at a deer. Things like true group size, a true zero, scope tracking, wind, etc. that do not cause issues at close range can and will screw up otherwise good shots.
As to the thought of 10 rounds groups having a human error to it.... I have to wonder at the people that believe they will be able to make shots in real life under stress/excitement whether it's hunting, self protection, or competition from often uncomfortable positions under time constraints, yet can't sit at a bench and press a trigger 10 times without have a seizure......
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Formie, by all means carry on right here if you like. The barrel sale is over.
I, like most others started shooting 3 round groups then moved on to 5. But now I'm starting to see the benefits of multiple 10 shot groups. Even I can learn a thing or two.
It's much easier to shoot a ten round group then adjust your scope, rather than adjusting it back and forth between 3 shot groups... Besides I like to shoot.
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Not that he needs my help, but you guys who are arguing with Formid need to understand that his explanation isn't even really about shooting, it's about statistics and probability.
No, it's not. His explanations are just generalized & are far from any real statistical explanation. MM Exactly and then will sling insults if you do the same thing.
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For sure the 10'shot groups are a measure of you, the ammunition, and the rifle. It is now clear to me when I make a mistake that is not due to the equipment. It is also certainly more expensive to do this. The common practice ammo just seems to suck now, another blow to the wallet, but as the man said "close" only applies to horse shoes and hand grenades.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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different thread.
FWIW in a 100ish yard deer hunting gun I can zero the gun in one shot and feel 80% sure...
But I have to be over 100% sure to make me happy.....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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No, it's not. His explanations are just generalized & are far from any real statistical explanation.
MM
Yes they are generalized, however regal me with how you determine that the gun is mechanically sound and will do the task(s) that you require of it? You put the "weapon system" i.e., gun scope & ammo into a mechanical rest, fire 30 rounds (fully, compliant, statistically valid sample) & then calculate the standard deviation & perhaps the capability index (CpK). For example, let's say that the standard deviation (SD) is .5", meaning that the average distance of all shots from the center of the group is .5". Therefore, 99.7% of all shot fired will be within the circle defined by +/- 3 SD or 3" in this case. So now that we know the "capability" of the gun (& scope & ammo), we can put it into the hands of the shooter & fire 30 more shots. If the shooter is as consistent as the machine rest 99.7% of all shots fired will be within a 3" circle determined above; conversely, if the shooter is not as consistent as the machine rest, the group be something larger than the 3" circle. If so desired, you can now calculate a new SD & capability, as above, for the gun, scope, ammo & the shooter. When that capability is defined, again, for +/ 3 SD, you can now be statistically sure at the 99.7% level that all shots fired will be within that circle. For example, with the shooter firing the weapon, the SD is determined to be .75", 99.7% of all shots fired will be in a circle defined by +/- 3 SD or, 4.5" in diameter. MM
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it aint over till its over ![[Linked Image]](http://i817.photobucket.com/albums/zz92/djones53/24hr/kirk_zpsvwtpub1i.gif)
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I'm confused about who doesn't understand who.
Just got my LaRue MBT Trigger in the mail. Based on first impressions and if they price these right, look out Geissele. They are nice.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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I spoke to them today about the weight of the stealth upper, its well made but I think I am looking for something lighter. Asked them about Reardon steel and he said "are you that Jeff guy or that Blue guy from 24 hour campfire".
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Tell em I need a 2XL T-shirt for all the air time...
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Tell em I need a 2XL T-shirt for all the air time... Don't be surprised if he pops in and sends more than that. I got a $250 trigger just for participating in a challenge and wasn't even ranked in the top 25.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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Just to be clear I told him I was not blue or Jeff. if I get a hat I will send it to you.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Hey, we are the ones stirring it, shouldn't we get the stuff. LOL.
War is holding out on us now, challenges with free triggers and not letting the rest of us know whats going on....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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I bet it's an arfcom thing...
I could really use a discount from LaRue, I hate paying retail. Besides I wound up throwing away 15 or more hats a few years ago. Multicam boonie hats are more my thing now, gotta keep the sun off more than just my bald head.
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Yes, it was a challenge on arfcom. It wasn't planned and was a one time deal. Mark LaRue just popped in and gave triggers and hats to everyone that competed in the SPR and service rifle divisions. And the triggers are awesome.
Last edited by wareagle700; 07/17/15.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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How do they compare to Geiselle triggers?
arfcom, I guess I can handle not knowing that, LOL, just can't deal with them anymore.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Arfcom has a good, no BS, precision rifle section. That's where I spend 95% of my reading there
They have a geissele feel but less over travel. Small difference but enough to notice when comparing side by side to a SSA-E and SD-E.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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I have to go look at this, I left ar15.com due to the drivel usually posted there.
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Yeah, there is lots of BS in the big sections but they have a good hometown section and great sub forums.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Arfcom has a good, no BS, precision rifle section. That's where I spend 95% of my reading there
They have a geissele feel but less over travel. Small difference but enough to notice when comparing side by side to a SSA-E and SD-E. Nice to know. Figured most anything decent Bill put out, would be adjustable through the range of likes and dislikes, IE overtravel etc..
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Well, after going back and forth between the LaRue MBT and Geissele SSA_E, I would say the LaRue is on par with Geissele. The pull weights are slightly different between the two but overtravel ended up feeling about the same. LaRue is claiming his are "better" but I am not really sure in what way. They are nice though.
I have no experience with adjustable Geissele's so can't comment on them. I would assume they are even better, though I couldn't imagine a better feeling trigger than the SSA-E.
Last edited by wareagle700; 07/19/15.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Someone one on EBay already has their 199.00 barrel for sale
Item number 252026609762
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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