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Double post, too late to just delete so changing the text to this.

Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 07/11/15.

Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
[quote=Royce...
Another point that I would have thought a coyote hunter would know, is that whether a rifle puts it's first shot dead on or not is not dependent on the cartridge, it has to do with bedding, barrel characteristics, etc.
Profession guides have said on here that about one out of ten hunters that show up with Magnums can handle them.- Another bear guide has had to follow up more bears that were wounded with magnums than with 270 class cartridges.
And I have shot elk with the 270, 300 magnum, 35 Whelen and been around a few more shot with other calibers.
Just so we are getting a fair comparison here, how many elk have you seen killed with each, the 270 and the 300 magnum, and with what kind of bullets.

Everyone knows that NO ONE can shoot a .300WM with any accuracy. Just look at my .300WM target below for proof. The first shot was from an oiled bore so while its placement is understandable. There is, however, no excuse for #3 except poor marksmanship.

[Linked Image]

In 2010 I took more or less identical Ruger rifles to the range for a last check before my elk hunt. One was a .30-06 and the other my .300WM. I set clay pigeons up on the 600 yard berm and took a total of 5 shots, two with one rifle and three with the other. I don't recall which was which, but it is irrelevant - what is important is that while I got a pigeon with both guns, I MISSED with three of the five shots. Probably should have just sold both rifles right then. Like a fool I kept them but had the good sense to hunt with the .30-06, which dropped my elk so fast it was on the ground before I recovered from the recoil. In 2012,though, I reverted to stupid and hunted with the .300WM. I shot my elk at 399-400 yards (measured via GPS coordinates and Google Earth) and, as anyone with any brains would expect, it failed to go down at the shot. Instead it went about 5 yards total before piling up just as I was getting ready to fire a second shot. Got lucky on that one...

Here is a pic of the elk and the Ruger MKII .300WM, exit side:
[Linked Image]

The cow was down inside the circle:
[Linked Image]

Sure wish I'd used a non-magnum...

The OP doesn't say whether or not he can shoot all of the rifles with the same accuracy. In fact, one would expect that not all of the rifles are equally accurate, regardless of the shooter's skills. In lieu of information to the contrary, though, I'll take it on faith that the OP shoots each of the rifles mentioned well enough to have confidence in considering them for an elk hunt. While you rant about magnums, you know nothing about how the OP shoots each of his rifles or about their individual capabilities with regard to first round shot placement. One would think you would know that "whether a rifle puts it's first shot dead on or not is not dependent on the cartridge".

How many elk have I seen killed with a .270 Win? None - no one I hunt with uses one. That said, over the years I've seen multiple elk that were killed with a .270, I just didn't witness the killing personally. From 1982 until 2002 the only bolt gun I used for elk was my 7mm RM. Since 2000 I've taken 13 elk using a variety of rifles, including my 7mm RM, multiple .30-06s, a .300WM and a .45-70. In addition I've hunted them with .257 Roberts, .30-30, .375 Win and .44 Mag rifle and pistol, but with no shots taken. My hunting buddies have used .30-30, 7mm RM, .30-06 and .300WM rifles. This year Daughter #1 will be going on her first elk hunt and will use her .308 Win. If her by-then hubby buys a non-resident OTC tag it will be his first elk hunt as well and he will use a .30-06. My current plan is to use a .280 Rem.

Funny thing, the .280 Rem doesn't shoot any better than my 7mm RM, .300WM or even my .338WM. Here's a group from said .338WM. First two shots were cold bore, after which I marked the target while allowing the barrel to cool before taking the 3rd, unmarked shot. Pretty crappy repeatability - the 3rd shot missed both of the previous holes.
[Linked Image]

I don't know what possessed me to think it was accurate enough for hunting elk, but in 2013 I did just that and used the .338WM to take my elk at 487 lasered yards, the longest shot I've ever taken on big game. The elk continued on for 58 yards before going down. Sure wish I'd used a non-magnum...






Hallelujah!!! Royce likes to jump on the small cartridge bandwagon and toot his horn, saying guys can't shoot magnums...Bunch of f cuking bs... To the OP, use the 30-06 or 270...

My 375 H&H is one rifle I have that puts the first bullet dead center of the bull damn near every time... My 9.3x62mm is another one that does the same thing. I've had quite a few 338 win mags that were just as trust worthy. To me, shooting a magnum is no different than any other rifle. You still need to foucus on what you are doing. Breathe right, aim right and pull the damn trigger at the right time. The bullet is going to go where you place it. Some guys just don't have a fu cking clue.. wink


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
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Originally Posted by Royce
A 300 Magnum in a rifle that is too heavy to haul up a mountain, or that won't put it's first, cold barrel shot on point of aim, or that has some imitation of the Hubble telescope doesn't make an elk hunting package. Elk hunting is not a game of marksmanship, it's a hell of a lot more like an endurance contest. And you can kill elk quite easily past 400 yards with a 270.
More elk are missed by over gunned hunters, than are lost to under gunned hunters-.


I've never noticed that my Ruger .300WM was" too heavy to haul up a mountain" (it is about a half-pound heavier than a .30-06) and it sports the same 3-9x Burris scope that I have on most of my rifles. Since the OP is considering a "Tropical .375" I'm going to guess that neither weight nor recoil are his primary concern. And unless you know something the OP hasn't posted, there is no more reason to suspect his .300WM has " some imitation of the Hubble" in the rings than does his .270.

You espouse the importance of first round accuracy yet claim elk hunting is " not a game of marksmanship". You can't have it both ways. IMHO, once you have found elk and are starting to press the trigger, and until the bullet has left the barrel, it is all about marksmanship.





Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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The CTR is the most accurate and actually carries quite well in my left hand, with hand in front of magazine. I have the urge to crumple an elk with a suppressed rifle and it's the only one that is threaded. It will be the primary.

The .300 Tang is the least accurate (though it used to shoot in the .5s before my brother dropped it in a Mickey) and only slightly less portly than the 1-inch Tropical.

I love my old MR and it's lively in my hand w an M8 6x42, fine for the longer shots but perhaps not super fast in close cover. If it's not the lightest Id be surprised.

The LTR is nearly accurate as the CTR, and fairly wieldy. It's dropped several whitetails like lightning w 165 TTB Fed loads.

The .358, .45-70 and '06 are the Stopper/Close Cover choices but could drop a 1.5-5x variable, 2.5x UL HD or Aimpoint Micro on any of them and be confident 0-200.

I've killed one elk w a .338 in '87, and this is only my second hunt for them.


�When in doubt, I whip it out.� Uncle Ted
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A double post from coyote hunter and BSA acting like someone pissed in his cherrios....

This doesn't really pertain to OP question more to other posters talking about what to take for a back up rifle.
I remember at the Sportsmans warehouse in Wasilla hanging on the picture board was a 12 yr old kid with a nice brown bear not a elk not a deer but a pretty nice brn bear. This kid used wait for it wait for it a Remington model 7 in a wait for it again 260 Remington using??? 140gr Partition... What's the point it doesn't really matter what you take for a back up rifle....

So BSA turn that frown upside down and stop being a grumpy guss.

Last edited by 79S; 07/12/15.

Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.

Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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79S -

Thanks for pointing out the double post. It has been corrected as best I could (too much time had elapsed for me to just delete it but I was able to edit it to one line).

The OP asked for opinions on what rifle he should take as his backup. Royce, as he has done before, immediately jumped on his anti-magnum bandwagon. It gets tiring, especially when his points are generalities, or non-sequitors, etc. The "one out of ten hunters that show up with Magnums can handle them" statement ignores the fact that many hunters can't handle their non-magnums either, that many hunters CAN handle their magnums and was made in total ignorance of the OP's capabilities in that regard. He correctly stated that "whether a rifle puts it's first shot dead on or not is not dependent on the cartridge" and then ignores that fact and berates magnums without any knowledge of how well the OP's can shoot his various rifles. For all he knew at the time, the .260 could have been the least accurate POS ever built.

Although he doesn't directly state that the OP has an "imitation of the Hubble telescope" on his .300, he brings up the subject of large scopes in his rant against magnums. I don't know about the OP but my large scopes are on my non-magnum rifles with small (.22, .25 and .26) caliber bores. The .257 Roberts had hunted elk several times and the larger scope has not been an issue.

Royce's comments would have been a lot more useful, informative and to the point if he had actually said something that was useful, informative and to the point.




Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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My secondary rifle will be just another version of my primary unless there is heavy snow, in which case my iron sighted Marlin 45-70 gets to come out


















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Funny sh!!t, two people that are always jumping on their soapboxes complaining about somebody else.

Classic.

To the OP, take what ever makes you happy. I'd take the 270.


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This isn't useful and to the point?
"Any of the rifles mentioned should should within 1 1/2 MOA, so picking the one that shoots the best might not be the best way to choose.
There are other factors, like which one is most reliable in a blizzard, which one holds zero best, is the weight conducive to carrying up and down a mountain all day, and what scope do you have mounted on it.
I think a rugged scope is one of the top priorities. Also, I want a generous eye box, and the thing sitting in as rugged a mount as I can find.
If you plan on shooting at distance, I would take each rifle out and see how close your first cold barrel shot comes to point of aim at 300 and 400 yards. A half minute of angle group doesn't mean much if is a foot away from point of aim."


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Coyote hunter
You are good are making up things I didn't say and then arguing against that. Not so good at logic and contradicting what I actually said. I never said 300 Magnums didn't shoot, and never said none could shoot them.
And the rest of your bafflegab is just getting farther and farther from the point-

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Originally Posted by Royce
Coyote hunter
You are good are making up things I didn't say and then arguing against that. Not so good at logic and contradicting what I actually said. I never said 300 Magnums didn't shoot, and never said none could shoot them.
And the rest of your bafflegab is just getting farther and farther from the point-


Everything I said you wrote was enclosed in quotes and copy/pasted directly from your own posts. How is that making things up on my part? Did you even read your own posts?

Talk about making stuff up and arguing against it, you stated “Another point that I would have thought a coyote hunter would know, is that whether a rifle puts it's first shot dead on or not is not dependent on the cartridge…”. Of course it isn’t, nor have I ever suggested otherwise. In fact, my only comments regarding rifle choice prior to your post were directed to the OP and read “Your .45-70GG would, to my way of thinking, be the most fun. But it is also the most range limited” and “The tanger .300WM would be my choice.” Nothing whatsoever about first shots. When you want to see who is making stuff up, look in the mirror.

No, you didn’t specifically say “300 Magnums didn't shoot, and never said none could shoot them”. Nevertheless you argued against the .300 Mag on the basis that only “… one out of ten hunters that show up with Magnums can handle them.- Another bear guide has had to follow up more bears that were wounded with magnums than with 270 class cartridges.” Both of those statements may be true (or not) but there is nothing magic about .270 class cartridges – or other non-magnums - and neither statement would be true unless in comparison shooter marksmanship sucked with the magnums. You then go on to argue “Elk hunting is not a game of marksmanship”. To summarize your argument, a) the problem with magnums is most hunters can’t shoot them well and b) marksmanship is not important. Yup, poor marksmanship is the problem with magnums but marksmanship is not important. Your argument, not mine.

Shot placement is far more important than cartridge. What “most hunters” are capable of is unimportant and irrelevant - what matters is how the OP shoots his .300, yet you argue against the .300 without any knowledge of the OP’s marksmanship with that rifle. And you think there is logic in that?



Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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I'd go with the .270, if you have confidence with it.



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My primary and backup elk rifles are both 270s, a CLR and a Remington 760, both shooting 130 grain Winchester/Olin Power Max Bonded factory ammo.

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I usually take a pair of identical rifles, most of my rifles are in matched pairs for this reason and my first choice in typical BC elk hunting is the superb .338WM.

I would take the spare rifle that YOU shoot best, loaded with premium CE bullets and not worry about it.

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I bought an identical rifle and scope so that I would have the same backup.
What I found was that it was NOT identical. Each rifle preferred the ammunition it liked and the newer one never could quite match the accuracy of the older one.

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I'd go 06 myself, hard to beat for near and far. My load is 180 Nosler BT at 2900fps. My 300 RUM can beat it but at a cost even though the recoil is less with the brake but weighs more too.

Everybody goes on and on about accuracy but no one mentions nerves. Yes I admit to having had buck fever before and learning a lot from it, almost cost me the deer in my avatar. To me being familiar and comfortable with the rifle counts for a lot.


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Whatever one you feel most comfortable with. If you have one tied to a tree the the Guide gun makes sense. The 270 MR seems to be the closest to your 260 and will dispatch near and far.. That'd be my choice

W


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It's all about confidence. Most any rifle will work, but the one that works best is the one you are absolutely sure will kill at whatever range you decide to take the shot.


















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Originally Posted by woofer
Whatever one you feel most comfortable with. If you have one tied to a tree the the Guide gun makes sense. The 270 MR seems to be the closest to your 260 and will dispatch near and far.. That'd be my choice

W


With the right loads .45-70's are not all that range limited.

MPBR zeroed for a 6" diameter target, my Marlin 1895 prints 22" low at 300 yards with my 350g hunting load. At 213 lasered yards that load obliterated sections of near-side leg and rib bones and shattered a far-side rib before coming to rest under the hide. The 6x6 bull didn't go down immediately, but it never took a step, either, tipping over just before I let go with a second shot.

Given that most of my elk (all but three IIRC) have been killed within 300 yards, I consider my .45-70 a very viable elk rifle.

And who knows - if I run across a rampaging dinosaur it would be my preferred rifle for self defense. wink

Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 07/13/15. Reason: typo

Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Originally Posted by willflow
I'd go 06 myself, hard to beat for near and far. My load is 180 Nosler BT at 2900fps. My 300 RUM can beat it but at a cost even though the recoil is less with the brake but weighs more too.

Everybody goes on and on about accuracy but no one mentions nerves. Yes I admit to having had buck fever before and learning a lot from it, almost cost me the deer in my avatar. To me being familiar and comfortable with the rifle counts for a lot.


Good post. Familiarity with your rifle is a must. Everything should happen as naturally as possible. Your rifle should function without flaw and act as an extension of your body. The more days, out in the field, under the belt helps with this. In fact, this is where I really learn which rifle works best for me and which one doesn't. wink


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
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