Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Glock 17 or S&W M&P 9mm?

no M&P trigger I have tried has compared to a glock stock for stock. the M&P triggers I have tried always have more grit and feel heavier. glock is never the gun you pick up and think wow this feels good. you adapt to the gun rather. a gun that feels good is the walther PPQ, for some reason walther has made that gun in alot of variations all of them distinctly worse than the PPQ. like the ppx. I think they should have just stuck with the ppq and given it time to grow a following instead of coming out with other designs that confuse people.

Straight out of the box and into a torture test, I'd put a Browning Hi Power, M&P, and a Beretta M9 against the Glock any day where reliability is concerned. Not saying a Glock is unreliable, just saying it's not the most reliable pistol in the world.

Beretta has a pistol at their factory that they've been running a test to destruction on for a few years. It has over 160k rounds with zero malfunctions and still going; and it's independently verified.

The Beretta has a bit of an advantage having served with the US Military. They got the US Military to test and improve the weapon to a degree that no other pistol on the planet has been tested to.

Despite it's unpopularity and it's early flaws (let's not forget that at that same time, Glocks were going through some rather significant issues), the M9 is probably the most reliable pistol in the world right out of the box.

I'm looking very forward to the next service pistol tests to see how they stack up against the benchmark M9.

This opinion would fly in the face of pretty much every professional military armorer from top units, as well as several other true industry experts with actual military, government and law enforcement experience.

There is a reason why folks like the British military are retiring their 1930s technology high powers and are replacing them with Glocks. In fact they have been issuing Sig Sauers in the interim until they can acquire more shipments of Glocks.

The stock high power:

Schitty sights: CHECK

Schitty trigger: CHECK

Schitty thumb safety: CHECK

Schitty sharp edges: CHECK

Less capacity: CHECK

Heavier: CHECK

The High power weighs empty 35.2 ounces.
The Glock 17 weighs 22 ounces

The High power carries 13 rounds in a magazine
The Glock carries 17 rounds in a magazine and is easily fitted with much much higher capacity base plates, and or extended mags.

The stock High Power was fine, in 1950.



I have worked on a fair number of British (and other nations) high powers, and am very much less than impressed with pistol in stock form.

The Beretta M9, Don't get me started. I have never seen a clunkier handgun so quickly boxed up by the host unit upon arrival in theater and the shooters issued anything but..

From Kelly Mccann:



Glock 19 with 750,000 rounds.

http://www.kellymccanncombatives.com...=314&priorId=0

"Tried and true, my Glock 19. Estimated rounds through this pistol? Over 750K - the only significant thing I ever replaced was the parts package included in their "voluntary upgrade" years ago.

I've used skateboard tape on it, an extended mag release, cut off the magazine well vertical lips, ground off the trigger guard and used a bicycle inner tube grip for years (works especially well by spraying DEET insect repellant on it then wiping it off with a cloth (NOT a paper towel). Makes the rubber super tacky). The finish wore off a long time ago. It's just getting broken in!

It looks so nasty, when Gaston Glock saw it years ago at a "Guns and Ammo" writer's event and shoot, he offered to give me a new one...! Couldn't see the wisdom in switching from a pistol I'd become so accustomed to, to a new one - but I appreciated his offer.

I switched to the Docter Optic sight years ago for two reasons - sight picture commonality with my carbine holographic sight and failing vision - yes, it's true - the eyes DO go first."


The M&P is only good for 60,000 before the slide gets cracks.

Chuck Taylor wrote about his 270,000 round G17 in the 2004 Glock Annual. I would think it's a little higher by now.

Glocks seem to have a better life span."

Below is a report by industry pro Todd Green.

Of note is that the only parts breakage in 60,000++ rounds was an aftermarket part. And of the 12 malfunctions, a few of those are attributed to the crap 10 round mags that were essentially an after thought to appease local restrictions, as opposed to factory 17 round G17 mags.







"Glock 17 Endurance Test: Month 13
3-Apr-12 – 19:25 by ToddG
60,207 rounds 12 stoppages
(+1 w/non-LCI extractor) 0 malfunctions 1 parts breakages
As mentioned previously, pistol-training.com is moving to a monthly format for the Glock 17 endurance test updates.

As you can see from the numbers above, shooting has been a lower priority over the past couple of months while I focused on other projects and generally took a semi-hiatus from the “multiple times per week” practice routine.

You’ll also see that the number of stoppages has grown from 9 to 12. All three were premature lockbacks experienced using Glock 10-round magazines while teaching in California last month. I almost feel guilty counting them against the gun — everyone’s 10rd magazines tend to be less reliable than their standard capacity versions — but they’re Glock factory parts so the failure falls in Glock’s lap.

I also had some 17rd magazines that I was using during the same classes and never had a problem with any of them. In fact, by the end of my five days in California, I’d sidelined all the 10-round magazines. That’s the simple solution: don’t use ten round magazines. (I realize that solution is less simple for folks living in places like NY and CA)

One thing not represented in the numbers above, however, is the severe breakage that deadlined the pistol recently.

As many of you predicted, the culprit in this past weekend’s complete bookendening of the test gun was, in fact, the Lone Wolf 3.5 connector. It was cracked right along the point at which it was thinned out at the base. Obviously, the square shoulder cuts created a weak point and with enough wear over time it simply snapped. Round count on the part was not particularly high: 16,514 rounds total.

The failure was unrecoverable without tools. There was no way to tap, rack, lock, rip, work, smash, coax, or bribe the gun into firing. The trigger moved back and forth under the tension of the trigger return spring but the striker would not release. The trigger bar was moving freely past the connector, pushing it out of the way rather than being guided as it should be. The breakage I experienced may be a fluke but understand when it happened: after the first round of the day was fired. That was the same gun, the same ammo, that I was carrying at dinner the night before. And it only made it through one round before going completely, utterly, irreparably dead.

While the photo above shows the LW3.5 in two pieces, it was actually still together in the gun. However, the significant crack that formed between the base and the upright was such that as I removed the part from the trigger housing, it finally broke in two.

For now, I’m undecided about what to do as far as trigger setups. One thing is for sure, though, I’m sticking with factory connectors from now on. I’ll play around a bit between the stock 3.5 connector (which at 4.25-4.5 pounds as measured by my gauge is a little too light for my taste), the 3.5 connector with NY1 trigger spring (which at 7.25-7.5 pounds as measured by my gauge is heavier than I’d like), or the “dot” connector (which at about 5.25 pounds is just right, except I don’t like the way the break feels). Which is why I was using the LW3.5 in the first place, remember?

The next two weeks should give me three or four chances to hit the range and compare the different options again, now that the aftermarket choices are off the table.

I also received a sample of the new Vickers Tactical gen4 Glock Magazine Catch. As you can see in the photo on the right (click to embiggen), the Vickers version is the same length as the “federal” extended gen4 catch made by Glock… a part in great demand among many shooters who do not happen to be federal agents. The most noticeable difference is the angle of the actual contact point where you press it to release the magazine. The standard and “federal” Glock buttons are at a nearly 90-degree angle while the Vickers version has a distinct curve to it. For normal operation (right hander using it on the left side of the gun or vice-versa) the Vickers version feels superior to me. It also has the benefit of being nicely rounded along all the edges. However, since I use my trigger finger to release the magazines with a “reversed” mag catch, the removed material compared to the Glock “federal” part essentially removes where my finger normally contacts the button. Outside of that particular method, while the stock gen4 mag button does a decent job, I think the vast majority of shooters will find the Vickers version superior for their purposes.

Getting back to the test gun, according to my records it’s gone just shy of 10,700 rounds since the last time it was cleaned (on 2-Dec-11). While it has seen a few drops of oil here and there, the gun certainly suffered as much from disuse as it ever did from heavy use. Taking it apart today to check on the breakage/stoppage issue, while the gun was certainly dirty it didn’t seem to be effecting any of the components in a noticeable way. Even parts which might be most susceptible to carbon fouling, such as the firing pin block, were moving freely. The only exception was the extractor. When I tried to remove it from the gun on Sunday to see the firing pin block was the culprit in the stoppages, it literally required pliers to get out. The gun still ejects and extracts normally, however, so even there I cannot say it’s more than a minor issue. Nonetheless, I really should clean the gun.

Not saying I will, mind you. Just that I should.

Train hard & stay safe! ToddG "

And this gun would have to sneak up on a box of bullets just to get reloaded...

You're reading INTO what I said, not what I said. I didn't say they were all around better guns; they're not. I'm saying they'll hold up to a Glock in the single department of reliability. That's what I said, and that's all I'm saying.

You can't compare a GI M9 to a Glock. You can only compare an out of the box M9 to an out of the box Glock, both in new condition. Take them out of the box and start shooting until one stops, that's what I'm talking about, and again, that's all I'm saying.

Otherwise, I would tend to agree with most of your statements. I would MUCH rather our military were equipped with Glocks than the M9. And while a custom Hi Power can be the finest pistol you've ever had your hands on, the Hi Power is just plain obsolete for modern military service.

I think it's better looking than many of the Tupperware guns, but you're right...Tupperware isn't pretty, it's just efficient.

Kevin mentioned that "Straight out of the box and into a torture test, I'd put a Browning Hi Power, M&P, and a Beretta M9 against the Glock any day where reliability is concerned."


the Browning Hi Power was--and is--a great pistol. not sure what was specifically meant by "a torture test", but of course some of the older Hi Powers (that came in a pouch, and not a box), often had feeding issues, so i can't see them competing with the other rigs in that area. newer Hi Powers solved those issues, but overall i think it might be tough sledding for the venerable Hi Power. while any model rig can have problems--especially if firing hot ammo (Beretta's and cracked slides, Sigs and cracked frames, a friend and his HK p9s and a cracked frame, etc.)--specifically i remember that years ago, a guy i used to shoot with got a hold of some hot military 9mm fodder. on firing these rounds, a small pie-shaped piece of the feed ramp broke off of his Hi Power, leaving him with somewhat of a partial ramp on his rig...

as great as the Hi Power is, i believe the steels in the frame and slide were comparatively "soft" and for this reason (in part), they were not very popular in the early days for some competitive shooting. subsequently, i'd guess that they would likely have a difficult time racking up extremely high round counts. i like them, but i always preferred the Colt Combat Commander in 9mm over the Hi Power, and the grip was a critical factor in that preference.

one thing about a Hi Power--i've never seen one fail to set off the hardest of primer cups.

as far as the OP's question--i'd take Count Glockula 10 times out of 10 over the Smith--but one has to do their own homework, and arrive at their own conclusions.

at one point in time, i knew that Taylor had claimed a round count of near 300,000 on his Glock 17. this is a very high round count, and he claimed that during that time his sights were worn to nubs. the Kelly McCann number of 750 K is a horse of another color--extreme, if factually true. it may have been him who used to write articles under the name of "Jim Grover", and i have quite a few of those older articles...

I have a friend that only buys Honda cars and Toyota trucks, because they're so dang reliable and will last for hundreds of thousands of miles. And then he trades them in every few years around the time the factory warranty expires.

And that's what I see people doing with guns most often. They pick out the pistol that can be run dirty for 300K rounds....then clean it after range trip and fire MAYBE 500 rounds a year.

At some point, you've gotta consider a pistol reliable enough for what you're going to actually do with it and then move on to consider other things about the gun.

Very true.

I am partial to the ease of repair, parts swapping and customization of Glocks:

I sure miss the simplicity of the Glock Tool compared to the hammer, block and punch set needed for an M&P. Of course I look a lot more "Armorer-ish" with a bona fide tool kit and the hammering sounds.

The older Hi Powers were extremely reliable with FMJ ammo, but the hump backed feed ramp wasn't JHP friendly. The Post-1980 Hi Powers are feeding machines and will hold it's own against anything in the reliability department. I personally have never owned or seen anything that's more reliable, but that's just me.

The Mk III's got a metalurgical upgrade, but truth be told the Hi Power is not going to take the high round count of modern pistols with heavier slides. But from a reliability standpoint, the Hi Power is never going to fail to go bang. The MK III's even have decent sights and a usable safety (although I tend to swap both).

The Brits had a very hard time abandoning the Hi Power because every time they tried another pistol, shooting scores dropped significantly. But the NATO pressure rounds were beating the petite slide of those older Hi Power's to death. They soldierd on with the Hi Power (many troops, including Prince Harry still carry the Hi Power) for another 25 years just opting to replace parts as needed.

But FN has been trying for at least 15 years to drop the Hi Power from production and they've always been reluctant to sell large numbers of replacement parts even to the UK. It's problematic for FN because there have been any number of changes to the Hi Power over the decades and not all parts are interchangable. Add to that, the Brits have damn near every Hi Power ever made somewhere in their inventory, beginning with the Inglis, which can still be found in the field from time to time.

So they started buying Sig 226 in the interim, and finally just bit the bullet and bought Glocks.

But for feed reliability, the Hi Power will ALWAYS go bang!

Now THAT was a "true-dat" post! Cracks me up!

Just one more piece of brilliance in the Glock design.

I've worked on the Hi Power for decades and when you're used to it, you learn that it's really just about the easiest pistol there is to work on. Oh getting the sear & ejector in takes a practiced bit of coordination and will drive you to drink the first 5 times you try. But after that, it's a snap. The rest of the pistol is just RETARD easy to maintain and service.

And the Glock just makes the Hi Power look like heavy rocket science in comparison. It's a really brilliant design.

Too funny. We are going to start calling you wrong way Gibson. You got to stop smokin up the cheeba with Mas Adoobie before you post any "knowledge"

Love 'em both. But currently carry a M&P full size. It's like asking if u like busty blondes or busty brunettes HAHA.