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The only way a 458 is a better choice, IMO, is if you have one purpose-built for the job. Others might not share my view but ‘standard’ 375s and 458s are just too much gun in terms of weight and size in my view.

I’m not sure why you felt a Guide Gun was less rugged than the 870, but, while I have never found the 870 to be lacking in its ability to handle abuse, it certainly isn’t a stronger or better-built design than the stainless Guide Gun.

Bear guns that get packed around, especially when not hunting, need to meet a couple different and important criteria IMO, than more purposeful hunting weapons. They need to be unobtrusive so as to always be available if needed...(i.e., not put down so they’re not in the way); they also need to be very easy to bring into play and handle well. That, to me, means not overly heavy or large. Everything I use in this role falls in the 16-20” barrel length range, and sub-8 lbs. The bolt guns I sometimes carry include a Model Seven stainless which has only been rebarreled with a 20” #3 Shilen with sights added; it’s a 358 Winchester.I also have this short-action 375 caliber M77 with a 20” Pac-Nor barrel. It uses a 350 Rem Mag case necked up.

[Linked Image]

Bigger cartridges might be advantageous for some bear purposes, but I don’t include crawling through the alders to dispatch wounded trophies in my criteria when it comes to bear defense tools. If my goal is to hunt and kill them, my criteria becomes offensive and my tools and loads reflect that.


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8 pounds is fine if you think it is fine. Again, you can load to your capability and it is still more than anything eitherside of it.

If you load the lighter Barnes X bullets of 300 or 350 grains, is is an amazing rifle over usual hunting ranges.


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There are some great ammo for 45-70. Buffalo Bore and Garrett

45-70 Magnum - Lever Gun Rifle Ammunition
45-70 Magnum - Lever Gun Ammo - 430 gr. L.B.T.-L.F.N.(1,925fps/M.E.3,537 ft.lbs.) - 20 Round Box

I'm thinking this will do ANYTHING a 458 can do.

This was made for the Marlin 1895 and works in it. I've had no problems.


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Quote {sporter stocks fit me better than the straight-gripped lever rifles:}

That's why I use a regular 1895 Marlin. Mine has had plenty of work done to it, had the barrel cut down, XO sights, Pachmayer Decelerator, Chrome matt finish, etc. I don't like the straight grip either. My wrist just doesn't bend that way. I like a regular pistol grip AND using heavier loads like Buffalo Bore and Garrett the pistol grip gives you better control with the rifle. The Straight grip works ok for some people but try a pistol grip and I think you will be happier with it. As a pure bear gun the 1895 is EXTREMELY popular in Alaska. Go out in the woods and run into someone chances are high they will have one.


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The only thing wrong with a Marlin Guide gun is that stupid hammer block safety. That thing can screw you.

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There are 12 gauge slugs available that will outperform anything you can load in a .30-06 but Brenneke's aren't the ones. The Dixie Terminator 2 3/4" slug load fires a 730 gr. hardcast slug at 1250 fps out of a 20" rifled slug barrel. The Dixie IXL-DGS {dangerous game slug} 3" slug load uses an 870 gr. hard cast slug at 1200 fps from a 20" slug barrel. I've seen tests of these loads {DGS} where they were fired into various test media studded with heavy cattle bones and they penetrated deeper and left a larger diameter wound channel than a 400 gr. bullet out of a 416 Rem. Mag.. Those are the slugs I would load for defense in big bear country. Just Google "Dixie slugs" and take a look.

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I don't think Buffalo Bores, Garretts and Dixie Terminators are common fodder in Canadian sporting goods stores at all. All I've ever seen for .45-70 is trapdoor loads or Lever-evolutions. If you lose your handloads, it seems like you are generally hooped.

In 12 gauge, Brennekes are scarce but Challengers are sometimes available. If even the Brennekes are hard to get, and even they don't outperform .30-06, then there isn't much to recommend the shotgun over the rifle performance-wise if the other loadings are unavailable.

On the other hand, I think that suitable Nosler Partition or bonded bullet (eg. Swift A-Frame) loadings of .30-06 SPRG /.338 WM /.375 H&H aren't hard to find. Appropriate .458 ammunition is usually not stocked, but some stores have it.

The butt-stock on the Guide Gun is mainly what I worry about. Also, jams (admittedly in a different Marlin lever) seemed pretty hard to clear sometimes. Break something and parts are week(s) away. Synthetic Marlin replacement stocks are unobtainium and the way the wood is bolted on doesn't fill me with confidence. Straight laminate stocks don't seem common. The straight grip thing is a bit of a mystery as an English-stocked double seems to fit just fine. Maybe it's the balance and the comb height. Don't get me wrong it wasn't terrible, but the 870 and M70 pointed much more naturally for me.

The 870/7600 stocks seem a little more rugged with the big bolt and no split at the tang, but they are a big notch below a McMillan on a Model 70 or a boat paddle on a Ruger. I suspect the same spill would break the stock on a Marlin, bend it at the tang on the 870/7600, and maybe scratch the McMillan on an M70. The bolt action seems much more rugged overall.

Klikitarik, this is the bolt action that succeeded the Marlin:

[Linked Image]

Ruger 77 Mk II in .338 WM with Ruger factory irons and NECG peep, McMillan classic stock. It also has the boat paddle stock. I thought it would be much easier to find appropriate 250 grain loads in stores than .45-70. These rifles have a reputation for rugged reliability in the Canadian North. I think the Model 70s are just as rugged. However, it's just over eight pounds with the 24" barrel, so that's why I started the thread about the .30-06.


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Can't you have a Canadian gun shop special order ammo from the states ?

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Originally Posted by Blackheart
Can't you have a Canadian gun shop special order ammo from the states ?


I don't know. It might be possible, but I don't know about what sort import/export paperwork, ITAR, trade rules etc would apply.

Many times it seems to depend on whether the store's stateside supplier already lists the item. Special orders out of normal supply chain tend to be very expensive or not available.

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They do ship to Canada:

CANADA
For any inquiries or a detailed list of current suppliers in Canada please contact:

STERLING CROSS DEFENSE SYSTEMS CORP.
Abbotsford, BC
V2T 6K7, CANADA
(604)746-2608
contactsterling-cross.com


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Thanks for the link. I haven't heard of them but will check it out. Their website seems to indicate military leanings rather than sporting goods. The ammunition page doesn't list specifics. Do you have any particulars on what they have available?

http://www.sterling-cross.com/ammunition/

Last edited by philthygeezer; 07/28/15.
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Originally Posted by moosemike
The only thing wrong with a Marlin Guide gun is that stupid hammer block safety. That thing can screw you.


A bit of file work to the offending end and a drop of Locktite as well as a twist to the set screw was all it took to eliminate the hammer block problem. smile



Originally Posted by philthygeezer


[Linked Image]



The tenoned inletting on the Marlin would certainly be stronger than the 870’s butt attachment. However, nothing says “can’t lose this” like the stock on that M77, and a M77 Mk II is a pretty tough rifle to better in a bolt gun. It’s not quite as handy as I’d like it to be to suit my preferences, but it’s a much better deal than the typical H&H or 458 type in generally as-issued form.

Last edited by Klikitarik; 07/28/15.

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I'm of the mind if the butt stock on the Marlin lever guns were a weak point they wouldn't have lasted over 150 years. Last thing I'd worry about. I'd also be more concerned with reloads hanging up in a lever gun than I would ammo that is specifically built for those guns. Use what you want.


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Originally Posted by philthygeezer
I've searched the interwebs and also this site high and low, and still can't seem to come up with a definitive answer. I've read the 1980s US forest service paper and the Alaska Fish and Game website recommendations. The former doesn't compare Brennekes and the latter seems mostly concerned with hunting.

We used to carry Winchester Defender 1300 shotguns loaded with Foster slugs for northern work alone in grizzly country. Now I think those slugs were likely not the best choice, and Brennekes are hard to get in Canada. We can get Challenger slugs that look like Brennekes and I think we can get ahold of the Federal Truball penetrators.

458win: I've gleaned from your posts that a .30-06 with 220 grain Nosler Partitions is probably better than a 12 gauge with Brennekes. Is this a correct perception?

To compare Golden Delicious to Red Delicious apples, let's say I have both Remington 870 12 gauge and Remington 7600 .30-06 for a lightweight option (also Winchester 70). Would I be better off with the slug gun or the rifle given equal proficiency?

The firearm would be last resort past bear bangers and spray, and will likely not be used much if at all save for practice. I'm not looking for a fight and most likely will not have problems, so if the 7 pound minimum is a 12 gauge, then is a .30-06 with 220 NPTs a much better option at the same weight? The thing would likely ride in an Eberlestock pack to keep hands free for clipboard/GPS/radio/etc.

I also have .338 and .375 H&H options (Winchester Alaskan). Those are a fair bit longer and heavier, but I would ship one up if warranted.

Comments/advice from anyone received with thanks.


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Excuse me for pointing out that giving a shotguns model doesn't tell much of anything. 12 gauge shells come in three 3 length and velocitys. The slugs come in various weights 1 oz, 1 1/4, 1 1/2.; --- 1 oz = 436 grains.

Using a 1 0z 12 gauge rifled slug at 1600 fps produces half the bullet energy of a 30-06 with a 220 grain bullet traveling at 2,800 fps.

The 12 gauge has poor ballistics, sectional density and 4-5 inches drop at 100 yards.

So what's the scenario. The bear is almost on top of you. You can drill him/her and the slug/bullet may go through. Reality is that these animals are still entirely capable of operation for many seconds - enough to swipe/bite/claw you inflicting significant injury. Or worse.

Obviously a .375 Magnum would be a better choice. But bullet placement is "theee" criteria. Only head shots will shut down a bear instantly. Head shots with a shotgun rifled slug may be a bit dicey to accomplish. A shot gun doesn't have sights, only a rib and bead. Rifles may be open sight or scoped.

If I was stuck with a shotgun up close I would prefer buckshot. I never put down a bear with a .22 caliber short but I have put down domestic pigs. It works. They drop like a rock - dead instantly.

Repeated shots in the face with buckshot surely will put out the eyes, probably penetrate the brain and spoil the bears day for sure.

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There was an interesting Shockey episode on a few weeks' back where a 10 yr old boy dumped a huge, in Shockey's words, "He's as big as they get", black bear in its tracks from about 100yards.

The boy was using a .30/06 with 220gn Partition.


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Originally Posted by William_E_Tibbe

Excuse me for pointing out that giving a shotguns model doesn't tell much of anything. 12 gauge shells come in three 3 length and velocitys. The slugs come in various weights 1 oz, 1 1/4, 1 1/2.; --- 1 oz = 436 grains.

Using a 1 0z 12 gauge rifled slug at 1600 fps produces half the bullet energy of a 30-06 with a 220 grain bullet traveling at 2,800 fps.

The 12 gauge has poor ballistics, sectional density and 4-5 inches drop at 100 yards.



Actually, knowing the model of shotgun does matter in terms of certain specifics, at least to me. We still keep an 870 around sometimes. It isn’t our #1 choice but some of the deterrent ammo available is still a better option under certain circumstances. The 870 is a proven design. Like any other option, how it’s set up matters. Suggesting that it’s a shotgun so you only have a bead sight is silly. I would not use a “bird gun” for a bear gun unless I was in a bird blind. The 870 is a very useable platform with the factory-sighted, rifled slug barrel, and it shoots better than probably 99.?% of people can with those sights at 50 yards under the typical bear defense scenario (whatever that is; assume a rapidly moving rottweiler type deal). I can’t imagine calling it a defense situation if the bear’s farther than that except if you’re trying to peel an animal off from a third party.

And since you question the importance, or lack of it, of the shotgun model being named, I would add that a standard 2 3/4 - 3” type 870 both use the same receiver ejection port which is basically designed around the shorter shell. While 3” hulls do eject from it (due to the use of a different ejector), they are also more prone to hanging up. For that reason, I have gotten away from the use of 3” shells in mine in order to reduce the chances of an issue at a bad time.

As for penetration and energy concerns, give me a hole, a long 1/2” hole. Great placement is fine as an ideal to strive for if shooting bears in defense is your cup of tea. But assuming head shots are the only way to stop a bear in its tracks is silly. And assuming you can hit that fine a rapidly moving target with any sighting device is even sillier. Breaking lots of important stuff can also work (and a long hole seems to increase the odds.) But I can tell you that energy can be singularly unimpressive.


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[quote=Klikitarik]

The advantage a shotgun has is that there are many options where deterrence projectile are concerned which aren’t available for rifles.


You mean, like this?




[Linked Image]

Or this?
[Linked Image]

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Stopping the bear is my major concern. I'm not concerned about braining one, I just want to make it unable to touch me. Accurate shooting to a part that will severely slow it down would be enough. I'll take the easiest shot that will do that.

Are you sure that a bead wouldn't be an excellent sight within 20 yards?

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I'll leave the effectiveness of the various projectiles to the boys who've actually shot bears. But, I've played with slugs a good bit over the years and can say that some guns shoot them straight and to the bead, but many don't and even at 20 yards you might miss the sticking place. It might be hard to remember to hold off a bit when your ass is about to get chomped.

Seems to me that if bear trouble is a real possibility, a $150 slug barrel (smoothbore should be fine) ain't much of an investment. Upgrading the sights to bright fiber optics wouldn't hurt.

BTW, there are all sorts of Brennekes. One of the 3" models designed for rifled bores, has over 3800lbs of energy. The Black Magics I played with some years ago would group 3 in less than 4" at 100 yards from a 870 SP IC barrel. Fosters are too soft for tough stuff, fragmenting on the relatively light bones of small deer.


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Quote
30-06 with a 220 grain bullet traveling at 2,800 fps.


With that kind of pressure, you may not get a second shot off, due to a stuck bolt.

You're getting up close to .300 WinMag velocities with that projectile.

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