Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Thinking of sizing up from 375 to 416

Hi, I am new around here and see the 375+ cartridges are a common topic so I'll ask for some advice on something.

I love my Ruger Guide gun in 375 Ruger. It's the gun I want to put down a large moose or bear right where the bullet connects. Though the inefficiency of the cartridge out of the 20" barrel bugs me. I know I maybe shouldn't be, but it does when a 35 Whelen or 9.3x62 could have 99.9% of the terminal effect with 10-20% less powder and a lot less muzzle blast. Before someone suggests simply getting a 35 or 9.3, know that I am left handed and couldn't for the life of me locate one when I was shopping and ultimately settled on the Ruger. I didn't want to go custom because of the cost and waiting time. Yes, the 375 Ruger is a poor man's 375! Perhaps I'll find one someday, but let me say that I really do love the Guide Gun's weight, stock, action, and I am not at all negatively sensitive to the recoil. I can convince myself to "enjoy" it.

So, I am thinking of trading barrels with a 416 Ruger, if it'll work. I would trade just the barrel so I can keep the left handed action, which is not offered for the 416.

The question I have for anyone experienced with the 375's and 416's, is the difference in anchoring effect on large critters of Alaska. Primarily for large moose, but also if I need to stop a brown bear.

For a fair comparison of numbers, I spent some time on the Powley calculator and came up with these figures with equal pressures at 62,000 psi and 20" barrel:
375 Ruger: 300 A-Frame (SD .305) at 2540 fps
416 Ruger: 300 TSX (SD .248) at 2620
416 Ruger: 340 Woodleigh (SD .281) PPSN at 2490
I didn't include a 400gr example because that's just a bit too much of good thing for me and I'd prefer to not lose too much speed for a 200-300 yd shot.
Would the 416's larger caliber and better efficiency (higher power) overcome the lower SD enough to still be notably better at anchoring than the 375?

To me, I like the idea of the switch purely out of an ideological sense for efficiency and offering perhaps a faster kill. If those of you that are experience with both when it comes to 1000+ lb critters also think there's a notable real life difference, I'll make the switch. But I'll live with it if not. Thanks!

I forgot to mention that I could also possibly track down a 23" 375 Ruger Alaskan barrel as another method to increase efficiency and performance. I figure the extra 3" would get the 300 A-Frame up to 2600 fps. Better, but not quite as big an increase with a larger bore of equal length.

Let's use two loads:

#1: .375 Ruger. 300gr. TSX at 2,650 fps (common reload velocity). The 300 TSX has a BC of .375. With a 200 yard zero that load has 9.55" of drop at 300 yards.

(*if you downloaded the .375 Ruger to 2550 fps you end up with...10.43" of drop at 300 yards).

#2: .416 Ruger. 300gr. TSX at 2,650 fps. The 300 TSX has a BC of .298. With a 200 yard zero that load gives you 10.53" of drop.

In either case the .375 Ruger has better downrange ballistics due to the more aerodynamic bullet. Plus the 300gr. .375 bullet has much better sectional density and therefore penetration.

The advantage of the 416 is not in range or velocity. It's advantage is found at ranges under 200 yards and with heavier bullets.

What I can say is that everything I've read including talking to a number of PH's in Africa state that the .416 has a more noticeable effect on game. A .458 even more so.

I haven't done it myself but I have considered doing exactly the same thing you're talking about...only I'd screw a .416 Remington onto my .375 H&H. In the end though, unless I was a PH or hunting DG regularly I just can't quite see the value.

PS: unless you can find an appropriate .416 ruger takeoff barrel it might just be cheaper to buy a .416 Ruger Alaskan as a whole rifle and be done with it.

PPS: the .416 Ruger I fired stovepiped two out of three rounds. Odds are high you may have feeding issues. It was a known issue on the earlier .416 Rugers.

What's your top priority? Start with that, then decide if you can have everything else too. If you want a stopping rifle first and foremost, go for the heaviest bullet and load your rifle can handle. If accurate, long range shots are likely you are after a "whole 'nother animal" and probably need a light for caliber TTSX or TSX (if your rifle will shoot them.) If you want a do-it-all gun, I'd bet you already own it, especially the lefty part.

2 cents

My top functional priority for this rifle is surety of putting down a large moose as close to where it's shot as possible or at least leave the largest blood trail possible. Second functional priority is to stop a large bear if I need to.

My other priority is to have a cartridge that makes the most sense in this rifle. It's going to be 9 lbs total weight so it's enough to slow down a lot of recoil, and I do prefer a bigger "push" than a bigger "smack" so the increased weight of a bullet at a modest speed is a non issue. The barrel is 20" and would still be in an identical 416 barrel to fit the stock. And with total length under 40", I feel like this rifle "needs" a big bore for it's identity's sake. Then there's the improved expansion ratio and higher velocity with all else being equal with a larger bore diameter (see my first post, 300 gr 416 comes out 80 ft/s faster than a 300 gr 375). 80 grains of powder with only 20" of 375 barrel, when 416 could be easily swapped, motivates me.

In practice, that 300 gr TSX has such a low BC that a 350 gr TTSX or others with better BC would be loaded instead for possible 200 yd shots. In any event, it's getting close to hunting season and I'm going to stick with the 375 through this season since I have loads set up. This would be a winter time project.

I appreciate all the of the input, keep it coming please.

They say a 350gr. bullet in the 375 caliber takes it up another level. In my 375 Ruger Guide Gun I have two loads that have worked for me. Both use RL-17 with Winchester WLRP primers. First is 78.5grs. with a Nosler 300gr. Accubond. I get 3/4" 3-shot group at 2590fps. Second is 73.0grs. with a Woodleigh 350gr. PP. I get 1" 3-shot group at 2391fps. Both COAL at 3.385" The 300gr. Accubond sighted in at 2.3" high at 100yds. put a dead on at 200yds. The 350gr, Woodleigh prints 2" lower then the 300gr. load. The 350gr. load is pretty close to 100yd. sight in. Going tho use the 300gr. Accubond on elk this year and the 350gr. Woodleigh for stuff that charges or bites back.

I'm not sure "efficiency" means what you seem to think it means...

But if your true first priority is anchoring moose where they stand when you shoot them, "efficiency" of powder burn shouldn't even be a question. Assuming you're using an appropriate bullet/cartridge for the task (which could be anything from 30-06 to 500NE, depending on who you ask), the most important factor in terminal effectiveness of a given bullet is shot placement. And even that isn't definitive, since individual animals may react very much differently to the same shot.

Agonizing over minutiae of velocity, SD, BC, and so forth is what makes us rifle loonies happy, but these discussions rarely have any real bearing on what actually happens in the field.

If you truly need to have every moose drop in its tracks reliably every time you shoot it, you'll need to use a crew-served weapon and even then there's no guarantees. So I'd advise you stick with your 375. Unless you want to have the fun of rebarreling to .416. But don't try to kid yourself into believing it will make a material difference in the field.

While I've not dropped a moose or brown bear with either I've owned, I've shot and killed game with both 375's (H&H and Ruger) and done a good bit of work with a custom 416 Remington. I'm also a lefty so empathize with your predicament regarding left hand actions and rifles.

But, IMO, you are way too deep in the weeds here. Any of these cartridges with proper bullet and placement will drop either creature instantly one time and not the next; that's not to say they are not game appropriate--they are easily. It's the nature of hunting and killing big, big game.

I would say go 375 Ruger in your Guide Gun or African Hawkey if you can find one or a 700 in the H&H, or whatever; find an accurate load with a 300-grain premium and go hunting because the 375's, again IMO, give you greater versatility across the NA big game spectrum.

Dont make it too difficult.

In regard to your target weight of nine lbs, I agree that that is a good 375 weight. In fact you can do a 375 all up and keep it at 8.5 lbs or thereabouts which I would greatly prefer. That would be a bit too light and punishing for me in a 416. I have nothing against the 416's but they don't guarantee you instant put-downs and in the mean time you have to put up with the rest of their disadvantages--greater weight probably, recoil, no benefit in a flatter trajectory (advantage 375 there mostly), etc.

Of course, back in the day when I was contemplating the same question, I went the 416 route. And then, subsequently, owned and hunted with both 375's.

So I understand the "unrest."

^^^^^^^^^^^

This. In Spades






If you really and truly want to anchor moose on the spot, or bears for that matter, select a medium cartridge that you can shoot well, load it with your favorite premium bullet, practice like hell, and shoot them in the brain.
Alaskan moose have pretty big brains.....

Thanks fellas, these are the voices of reason I need to hear. But it is fun being a gun loony!

An easy way to turn your 375 into a 416 is to send it to Danny Pedersen (Classic Gun Works (928) 772-4060) and have the rifle re-bored. I've had both my Ruger African and Alaskan Hawkeyes re-bored to .423" by Danny. It took about 2 months and was very reasonably priced. Re-boring to .416" would not be very difficult and would definitely produce a more effective stopper for DG.

In my experience, bullet choice and placement have more to do with dropping moose instantly than cartridge choice. Leaving out those that were brained and spined my fastest moose drops were with 7mm and 30 calibre bullets that many think would bounce off a coyote. Things like Hornady Interlocks, Sierras and Ballistic tips. That's not to say that harder, deeper penetrating bullets won't fit into your philosophy of the best compromise design, just that the fastest drops came with the softer faster bullets.

On the .375 versus.416 thing, I started with the .375 and tried a .416 looking for faster kills. After playing around with both I eventually had to admit that if there was an improvement I sure couldn't prove it by killing things. Going up to .458 did give me what I was looking for. Although you'd think that the .416 should logically split the difference, I could never see it.

The more I think about it, the less sense sacrificing a 375 for a 416 makes. Lately I feel like the beauty of the 375's is that they can still be virtually as flat shooting as smaller magnum cartridges but can also push 300-350 grain bullets very well. I looked at the 416 bullets available and they give up too much long range ability for what's gained in the short range. And, if I'm not satisfied with how 375 can perform, it's a ME problem, platform issue, or I should go all the way up to a 458.

Thanks everyone.

OMFG!!!

you stunt shooting bastage....

If you change your mind about a LH 9.6x62, here is a listing for a Tikka:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...t-hand-9-3x62-17546.cfm?gun_id=100557037

I bought a LH Tikka 9.3x62 from Michael Murphy and couldn't be happier. However, I did get a custom stock from Tikka Performane, a rear sight from NEGC, a beaded Sako/Tikka front sight from Brownells, and a Ken Rucker "Bump Buster" adjustable hydraulic recoil system.

Thanks for the link, I imagine it will go quick. I'll keep an eye out for a stainless and synthetic or laminate stock.

Going from the 375 to one of the commonly used 416s is a big step up in ferocity on your end of the rifle.

I used a 416 Rigby for about four years. I went back to a 375 when I noticed I was "anticipating" the recoil.

I used 300gr Nosler Partition in my 375 on my last trip to Zim and when I loaded it to 2540 fps and a 300gr solid at 2450 fps the solid was dead on at 5o yards and the Partitions landed just a hair above 1.5" at 100 yards.

When we hunted buff I carried a Partiton in the chamber followed by solids. We played high and seek with a fairly large herd of buff for about 2 hours and the largest bull in the herd got curious and walked over to us and gave me a frontal shot at about 25 yards. The soft his him in the crease where the neck joins the body and broke his neck just before it joined the spine and continued thru his body thru the opposite lung and wound in the rumen.

His reaction to the shot was his head went back and his back feet left the ground and he hit the ground dead - all of which happened before the rifle came down from recoil. My first thought was "Where did he go". The PH laughed and said the puff of dust you see is from the buff hitting the ground so hard. As we walked up to put in an insurance he gave out the famous death bellow.

If all you are shooting is a moose which with decent placement fold up like anything else and brown bear ----- you have all the gun you need if it throws a 300 gr soft at anything over 2500 fps.

I also shot a large bull sable as it ran away - high on the right knocked him down at not quiate 200 - second shot high on the left hip and also knocked him down at a bit past 225 --- he was dead on his feet but he was only about 200 more yards away from the border of the concession I was hunting in and I wanted to knock him down - 3rd shot was a miss but the last round in the magazine caught enough of his front shoulder to stop him. Didn't knock him down and it wasn't until we put in a finishing shot at about 15 yards that he went down.

Each of the hits penetrated enought to exit after about 2 feet of travel thru the hip and thru the paunch.

One of the benefits of keeping the velocity to a reasonable level you still get plenty of penetration but you also get decent expansion.