Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Education required, gentlemen

It seems that someone on here has "browsed" enough to now be an expert on African hunting and conservation.

Perhaps those with more actual knowledge than mere "browsing" could lend a hand in educating the rest of us.

Thanks,

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/10232930/2

I hate to tell you this Birdie, but you are as FOS as Hogan's Goat when it comes to this topic, or at the very least, you are reading crap from what amounts to the anti-hunting crowd. There are myriad studies resources (hell, even check the NYT's recent article "Killing Lions to Save Lions" (or words to that effect). The point being, destruction habitat, i.e. human encroachment with domesticated animals (feline aids), indiscriminate poisoning and killing of entire prides in order to reduce cattle killers and outright poaching IS the culprit behind the decline of lion populations (currently circa 45K). It is a FACT, Birdie a FACT that indeed lions (and fill in the black to include ANY African animal) survive BEACAUSE of hunting. Hunting gives them VALUE, in the form of currency, meat, etc for the indigenous populations. Without hunting, wildlife loses it's value and is soon reduced to near extinction.

Here is a simple fact, in EVERY country where sport hunting is allowed, virtually every specie of game not only survives but thrives and it is also a FACT, that in those countries where sport hunting is BANNED, that game populations crash. THe easiest example is Kenya where hunting was banned in 1974 because hunters were getting in the way of the ivory trade for the Kenyatta family and there, ALL game is virtually gone except for the National Parks.
Two years ago, Zambia closed hunting and soon realized a hunting ban has the EXACT opposite effect and has since re-instated hunting. Uganda is another place. Virtually closed for years, (by Idi Amin where he took pleasure in killing elephants with an M-2) and now that it's opened back up, populations are on the comeback. Mozambique is another example and I could go on. BTW, Bostwana will in all likelihood reopen hinting as they realize they are all but destroying the eco-system as a result of their 250% carrying capacity in place like the Okavango.

So please, stop the bullshit..

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I'm sure other folks will be along...

Read what I wrote Jorge, the principles of what you are saying are well known, even by me.

Read the whole piece by the people at the University of Pretoria, and tell me if these wildlife scientists are liberal greenies etc....

I will state that I shoulda said nearly all lion hunting in South Africa is, at best, put and take. Doesn't mean its always easy, and from what I gather such lions can be even more of a hazard than wild ones, but the success rate for the hunter is apparently significantly higher.

I agree Botswana will have to open hunting soon, if only for elephants (makes one wonder what on earth controlled elephant numbers before the rifle). But if they don't open up lion hunting again, how is that not an opportunity to compare hunted vs. unhunted lion populations over a large area?

Most of the tagged and tracked male lions at that preserve in Zimbabwe were eventually shot by sport hunters, and the taking of mature pride males can be predicted to often cause the deposement of the surviving pride male(s) and the death of cubs.

How is any of this controversial?

Birdwatcher

"Most of the tagged and tracked male lions at that preserve in Zimbabwe were eventually shot by sport hunters, and the taking of mature pride males can be predicted to often cause the deposement of the surviving pride male(s) and the death of cubs."

Nonsense. The lion population in Zim, especially the hunting conservancies are thriving and special care is taken NOT to shot Pride males. Your statement above is complete nonsense. Go over to Accurate Reloading.com where there are true experts on the subject including Veterinarians and people who contribute and get the real facts, not from some pedagogue in RSA.

I may speak nonsense on occasion, but do try to verify facts. And actually, at this time, I do have faith in the pronouncements of the Wildlife Scientists at the University of Pretoria in RSA until cause is given otherwise, ESPECIALLY given the even-handedness of their publication (further down the same paper quoted earlier).

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0073808

In Kenya, where trophy hunting has been banned since 1977, for example, protected areas now lack the buffers that are provided by hunting blocks in many other African countries, and wildlife populations have declined by 60–70% since the hunting ban [21]. While it is not possible to determine whether, or to what extent, the trophy hunting ban contributed to negative wildlife population trends, the prohibition certainly failed to improve the conservation status of wildlife (including lions) in Kenya.

In this paper, we review the extent of lion hunting in Africa, the way it is managed and identify issues which undermine sustainability.

The collar the poached lion in this case was wearing apparently was part of an twenty year study out of the University of Oxford headed by one Peter McDonald, in the case of that particular Harare preserve no one seems to be arguing the statistic of....

According to figures published by National Geographic, 34 of their 62 tagged lions died during the study period – 24 were shot by sport hunters.

Since in Zimbabwe at least, hunting at lions after dark over bait is apparently the norm, it does beggar the question of how a particular lion might be identified when trying to avoid taking pride males.

Also, since even male lions without a pride must aggregate within an alliance of at least two males to have even a chance of breeding someday, the question of the effect of trophy hunting on the other lions in the affected alliance oughtta be looked at.

Seems like the take of wild male lions (not including the take of artificially reared and released lions in RSA) may be as high as 700 male lions Continent-wide. Has this had a proven effect on lion populations?

Ya, in Zambia, where as also referenced in the above-linked article, the proportion of males in wild populations has reportedly dropped from the norm of around 30% (one in three) to 8% (one in ten), apparently due to sport hunting.

Heck Jorge, you're the one who oughtta be spouting this stuff off chapter and verse at ME.

Anyway, co-authored by that same McDonald guy, a great 2014 paper on lions actively avoiding people in cattle-ranching areas of Kenya (as opposed to Southern Tanzania where they are apparently eating people with some regularity). Seems like lions like that poached one coming off of a preserve would exhibit little avoidance behavior.

http://ewasolions.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Oriol-Cotterill-et-al-2015.pdf

Birdwatcher

20 year research project? On a wild Lion? Why waste 6 years research money?

That particular lion had been tracked for seven years, I dunno how long it had been a pride male but as you imply, it was approaching the end of a long and successful run anyway. A figure of 200 GPS collars used since the start of the twenty year study was given.

Birdwatcher

Birdie, as long as you keep spouting tree-hugging studies, I'll keep posting it's FOS. Sorry, this is BULLSHIT:

While it is not possible to determine whether, or to what extent, the trophy hunting ban contributed to negative wildlife population trends.

Bottom line: Sport hunting enhances ALL wildlife, banning destroys it. PERIOD.

Egad Jorge, did you READ that paper at all?

All the way down through the surveys and feedback from PH's in a number of African nations regarding harvesting quotas and age limits?

The whole friggin' paper is about improving the SUSTAINABILITY of lion hunting.

And here's the WHOLE passage from which you cherry picked....

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0073808

In Kenya, where trophy hunting has been banned since 1977, for example, protected areas now lack the buffers that are provided by hunting blocks in many other African countries, and wildlife populations have declined by 60–70% since the hunting ban [21]. While it is not possible to determine whether, or to what extent, the trophy hunting ban contributed to negative wildlife population trends, the prohibition certainly failed to improve the conservation status of wildlife (including lions) in Kenya.

In this paper, we review the extent of lion hunting in Africa, the way it is managed and identify issues which undermine sustainability.

This is no different from any paper that would be published here in the US from a University Wildlife Department re: the management of any species.

If the authors had said "the banning of trophy hunting caused a 60-70% decline of Kenya's wildlife", in the absence of specific supporting data they would have immediately have been brought to task (and indeed may have been) under peer review for that statement.

What they could and DID say is this. Banning trophy hunting meant that it was no longer profitable for private landowners surrounding the preserves to devote their lands to accommodating hunters, and following this loss, wildlife populations on those preserves plummeted.

Call them "tree huggers" if ya want, to me they just sound like impartial wildlife scientists doing their job.

One thing it seems difficult to deny is that sport hunting has had a significant effect on the nature of the mortality affecting male lions, reducing that number by two-thirds in the studied Zambian population.

I dunno any Professional Hunters, but it is hard for me to imagine they wouldn't be all about this data more than anyone. After all it is THEIR very way of life that depends upon the preservation of these wildlife resources and they NEED hard data to counter attacks by the antis.

Birdwatcher

kee-rist, what part don't you get that ANY suggestion on banning lion hunting is bad for the species? peer review by other tree huggers? GMAFB.

Conservation Magazine, on trophy hunting as a benefit to conservation: http://conservationmagazine.org/2014/01/can-trophy-hunting-reconciled-conservation/, citing this case study: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13880290590913705?journalCode=uwlp20#abstract

The IUCN on trophy hunting and conservation in Africa: https://portals.iucn.org/library/efiles/documents/2009-074-En.pdf

The basis of this is simple: hunting is a proper conservation tool with many decades of proven success across the spectrum of game animals, including rare species and those with low birth rates and even predators including lions. The problem, and the failure, comes when corruption and poor management (often the same thing) enter the picture.

Zimbabwe is a poster child for corruption. Put the blame where it ought to lie.

You don't need hunting to provide money for wildlife conservation, all you need are Beanie Babies!








Of course, like most things, this will fade quickly and people will stop sending money in a month when the next flavor of the month comes along.

Of course hunting money would be 'forever', not just some month long emotional based thing.


There is NO way much of this isn't being driven by a corrupt government not get enough of the cut.

OMG, my personal troll is BROWSING THE INTERNET now.....



You'd have a point if anyone was debating that.

Jorge, name-calling is no basis for an argument.

I guess I have more faith in wildlife scientists than you do, but then I've worked for a few.

Closed seasons as necessary and bag limits have long been the norm in the US, as they HAVE to be. Why should this be any different for lions?

The ONLY way lion hunting is gonna survive is with iron-clad data and completely defensible harvest.

Birdwatcher

I have not called you names. Only thing I've said the ALL the articles you quoted are written by folks who are AGAINST hunting and try and couch their arguments in Global-Warming-like cooked data.
And WHATEVER makes you think lion hunting (and for that matter ALL African hunting is not under strict quota and seasons and in the case of lions even stricter aging criteria? Where are you getting this notion there is open season and quotas on lion???? Well, that is what WILL happen when hunting is banned and the wogs get to run the whole show.

In Tanzania for example, the aging determination is so strict that failure to adhere is immediate cause for license revocation.

There ARE closed seasons and bag limits on lions, as cited by multiple wildlife scientists in papers you refuse to read - that's what the quota system is and how it works. When management DOESN'T work is when corruption interferes with proper management (case in point; Zimbabwe). The only way any hunting works as a conservation tool is with properly implemented game management; corruption destroys these efforts.

Ergo, the problem isn't with the management of the game but with the corruption of the managers.

Why, how ever could you know these things, jorge? Have you "browsed" them sufficiently and cherry picked a single study upon which you base the entirety of your argument?

LOL. For the last fifteen years, I've been fortunate enough to have gone on safari, personally know quite a few PHs who are also well-versed and educated on the subject of not only hunting but animal husbandry (Kevin Robertson comes to mind as well as Don Heath) and many, many Americans who contribute substantial financial support (in addition to MILLIONS in trophy and other fees) in ensuring wildlife survival. So yeah, bit more than internet browsing reading articles from the pocket-protector crowd with an anti-hunting agenda.

But, how can you possibly top this?

Stop, you just made me laugh so hard I farted and my secretary heard it....