Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Who invented the 270 Win?

It seems there is a caliber that predates the 270Win in Europe, that lets you chamber and fire 270 Win in it.

Its called the 6.7 Neuber. Or 6.7x63. Launched in Europe in 1911. With atleast a one made in 1907.

You'd think J OC invented it?

6.7 Neuber (UBER), I like it.

I think 270 Uber sounds perfect.





Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

AFAIK the 270 Win was developed by/for Winchester and that made it a proprietary cartridge. I certainly have read the details about it development but can't recall them.


There are certainly those here who can supply all the historical details.

I always thought the .270 was developed by some ancient fat guy in a leopard skin thong named Ingwe who lives in Montana as a replacement for the hoary old 7x57 Mauser.

That rated 6 laughies! ! !

THIS guy invented the .270...

I like your leopard outfit better...

DF

A picture from your college frat boy days?

God invented it.

A better question would be, WHY?

He is in touch with his 'feminine' soft sweet self !



gag! cough! gag! barf!

Because it is perfect !

.270 Win. = The Original Magnum.

No disrespect, but I really thought that Rick Bin didn't want anyone posting pics of Larry root here, just sayin'

And no, I could not help myself

A leopard can change it's spots.

The 270 was not invented...as with all things perfect...it was discovered!!

Flame suit on!!

For someone who says .270 owners are gay,you sure do have a few gay pics in your photo bucket account.
















Makes a normal person go hhhhmmmmmmm.

Perfection it is.

There's an old story that a Winchester salesman came across an obscure 27 caliber Chinese army round during his travels and this became the inspiration for the 270.

Jim Carmichel theorizes that Winchester wanted a hot new round for their then new model 54 bolt action rifle but didn't go with a 6.5 or 7 millimeter bullet because those were popular in Europe at that time and Americans wanted nothing to do with anything "European" so Winchester split the difference between 26 and 28 caliber.

Who really knows? Probably some dead guy.

Can't name the source now, but I read where Winchester went with the Chinese 7mm/277 dia. bullet instead of the Euro 7mm/284.
(The 270 appears to be the truer 7mm at .275.)

Main reason was to best Newton's 6.5 in speed and bragging rights for marketing reasons obviously.

It took 15 years and JOC to turn the cartridge into a seller.

it would figure that a worthless round would be the one that no one can know where or remember who came up with it. LOL.

I thought it was Al Gore.

For that comment Rev.... GO TO YOUR ROOM!!

Very amusing. I love the sense of "hummer"

But:

Calling the .270 Winchester an invention requires some clarification.

Short Answer:

The .270 Winchester was "developed" by Winchester Repeating Arms Company in 1923 and introduced/unveiled in 1925.

I'll repeat that Ken Howell claims to know about 5,000 cartridges and postulates that there may be as many as 10,000. And coincidence to European metrics is just that.

The long answer:

The .270 Winchester is but one of numerous cases that have the same head dimensions, case dimensions near base and differ only in caliber and finished length and shoulder. These are offshoots of/from the old, venerable .30-06 Springfield developed for the US Army in 1906. The 30 designates caliber. The 06 the year of introduction 1906.

Just some, not all, cases that are formed from the Mother 30-06 are:

.22-250
.250-3000
.25-06
.270

And from there many more, including custom and wildcat in US measuring system as well as some in metrics that also "fit".

Your google skills are awesome!

Actually, I believe the 270 Win had the same parent case as the 30-06.
That would be the short lived 30-03.
Note that both have long necks.
The other '06 wildcats probably started with the '06 case.
jmho
Tim

Yes, the .270 eventually resulted from the .30-03, but there was a stop along the way. After the Springfield became the U.S. military rifle, Winchester could see the coming importance of the bolt action. They developed their own bolt rifle and planned to first introduce it in Europe, for some reason (they always did have something of a presence in Europe, partly die to John Browning).

The rifle was in the works around 1912, and very much resembled the eventual Model 54, with a European-style Schnabel-tipped stock. The cartridge was essentially the .30-03 necked to take a .288 (not .284) bullet.

But during the plans to start commercial production something eventually called World War One broke out, and the project was scrapped until after the war. Europe was so messed up by then that the rifle became the Model 54 Winchester and appeared here. The new cartridge's bore-size was changed to .277, reportedly to keep people from rechambering the many pre-'98 Mausers in 7x57 then becoming common in the U.S., due to so many coming across the Mexican border. Their actions weren't considered strong enough for the new Winchester cartridge.

Thank You Mule Deer.

I've always thought that they didn't want '98s to be re-chambered so they could sell Winchester rifles, but I'm a suspicious old man.

Whatever the reason, the happy result is the perfect bullet diameter, or it would be if the bullet folks would stop favoring those inferior diameters just above and below .277.

I'll just nip off to my bomb shelter now.

Any relation to Savage_99?

Got him on Ignore. His posts make my head hurt.

I'd rather read the Complete Annotated Posts of Boxer/Big Stick than wade through another of his.

AFAIK the 270 Win was developed by/for Winchester and that made it a proprietary cartridge. I certainly have read the details about it development but can't recall them.


There are certainly those here who can supply all the historical details.
_________________________


B R H -- Finally we get a 'definitive' 'historically correct' answer.

Thnx MD for the specifics.

Jerry

Nah, ingwe just perfected it.

The 270 Winchester was actually the result of an idea by freethinker and sometimes inventor, Benjamin K. Tibbey, from Kentucky. He called it, appropriately enough, the 'Tibbey Wetless Combuster'. It actually predated black powder cartridge rifles.



It was an enclosed breech system that used a .275 inch bullet, pushed by black powder. Everything was held in place with a copper cylinder. It was called 'wetless' because the combuster sat inside a sealed chamber, protected from inclement weather and rough handling. No more wet powder! It used a skinny, nail shaped flint for a firing pin which struck a metal mesh screen located at the base of a black powder filled, copper cylinder. That created the spark which ignited the powder.

At first blush, many 19th century shooters suggested that the Tibbey Wetless Combuster was a forerunner of the BP cartridge loading rifles.

Later BP cartridge guns shared one or two of the same characteristics as Tibbey’s Wetless Combuster. The trouble was, while Ben Tibbey was known as a sometimes inventor, he was also known locally as a ‘really bad’ sometimes inventor.

Here’s an example.

One of Ben’s bad inventions was the Tibbey Apple Corer. It was a simple machine - a spinning drill bit, mounted to a table. A foot pump caused the bit to rotate. While boring out the core was smart, the execution was poor. The operator had to hold the apple in the palm of her hand and push it onto the rotating bit.

Needless to say, most of the corers had accidents. All were women, and became known as Tibbey’s Maidens. No man wanted to marry a woman with only one good hand.

But I digress. Tibbey's Wetless Combuster was a very inefficient system that went the way of the Dodo. Still, one has to wonder...

Tibbey tried unsuccessfully to sue the manufacturers of several early bolt action rifles. His reputation as a really bad inventor preceeded him however, and that had a huge influence on the court's rulings.

He died at the age of 51, killed by a spinster who had worked for him years earlier, coring apples. He was stabbed in the heart with a rusty bit from a Tibbey Apple Corer. The fatal blow was delivered using the woman’s good hand.

Steve, you been sniffing Cordite again??

Whoever invented it, he or she was some kind of a genius!

Could have sworn it was Lee 24

That's Steve's High School yearbook photo. The 60's were really tough for some guys.

Yep...


nothing but a wannabe 30-06...

Too bad Dober doesn't post anymore. He called the .270 Winchester "the .30-06 Improved"....

Yeah! I miss Dober. He had a lot of knowledge and a great sense of humor.

Why did he stop posting?

Got tired of the drama and BS, especially when he posted something about his experience (which is considerable) and some nitwit who'd never done 1/10th of what he has challenged him on it.

He found better things to do with his time, in particular his family.

Hopefully he ain't spending more time with Brad....

That's too bad. I generally chalk up rude behavior to ignorance, alcohol, or mental illness, not necessarily in that order. In "real life" you can walk away. On the 'net, you can choose to ignore them.

I find "ignore" a nice feature to avoid contact with those whose behavior I find offensive. I do find it odd that a couple of folks who have me on "ignore" regularly peek and comment on my posts. If they "dislike me" enough to ignore me, why can't they let go and "really" ignore me?

Life is one long mystery, and the Internet has only increased the mystery quotient, in several ways.

That's deep MD.

Tibbey was from Ohio.

Somebody with homo tendencies or to much time on their hands.

elkhuntermn,

Yep, and it only piles deeper and deeper and deeper....

Yup.

People can say what they want about the 270, but I've got mine in an old Ruger No.1B ready to go. Old Scottish made H4831, one grain below max in appropriate vintage data, and 150 grain Interlocks at 3000 fps. Accuracy I could use to lighten the wallets of those who think no No.1's shoot.

Steve Redgell:

Fantastic repertoire. You are truly a very, very talented and creative raconteur of "history".

With your kind indulgence I would like to query you further.

Thomas Benjamin Tibbey was English, 1849-1906.

I don't see any connection. My family ancestry was Bentheimer, a principality between the Netherlands and Germany. Back in the old days Tibbe was spelled Tibbet. That goes back to the 11th Century Romans, best info available.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentheim

Sorry that I haven't been able to follow the development of your Wetless Combuster but I am definitely open completely to more enlightenment.

Most of the drivel decrying the 270 is Internet chatter,hawked by a small but highly vocal minority.

They remind me of the same crew who, back in the 70's, preached that elk should never be hunted with anything less than a 338 with 250 gr. bullets. Geezus those guys got boring after awhile...the reason I just stopped reading Elmer.

The 270 probably packs more meat in freezers and puts more big heads on the wall every year, than all the wonder cartridges combined...except maybe the 30/06.

He did it just before the SC 375 super secret safari grade

A few years ago, a guy named Solomon wrote, "there's really nothing new under the sun."

If he wasn't a "270 guy" then, I believe he would be in the present.

I have a 270-30/06.

Hammer -

Did you know there is a 25-06 IN every 270 Win.?
<grin>

Oh gee, everyone knows Jack O Connor invented the .270 in hunting camp one night when Elmer Keith was late arriving.

Hence the name there wall, I owned one of those beast for 18 years, of course in many different rifles.

YEP - hence the ? <G>

I have a long time friend who has one and I'm always ribbing him about 'when it'll grow up?'..all in fun.

Jerry

And I always thought that JO'C did it to pi$$ EK off, to prove to him that a man didn't need a rifle of at least 35 caliber and bullets weighing at least 250 grains to kill North American game. I don't know that I ever read that EK ever used a 270, but he did claim to have owned a 256 Newton and other than being about 150+/- fps slower and having a bore diameter 0.013" smaller, there isn't a whole lot of "practical" difference between the two.

Actually, Jack O'Connor never shot a 270. He shot a 257 Roberts almost exclusively. I got this from a reliable souse in Lewiston.

Al Gore invented the 270 Win

Actually, Mr. Peabody invented it to create all the drama on the Campfire concerning it, and then he and his Boy Sherman hopped in the Wayback machine and deposited the idea on the desk of Ed Pugsley, CEO of Winchester at the time...

It has now come full circle, as it were.

Mule Deer,

You say the origins of the Model 54 are that developmental work was done as early as 1912, interrupted by the war and finally brought out after?

I remember (barely) reading an article probably 20 years ago which claimed Winchester had plans 1919-20 to bring out a sporter based upon the 1917 action, but were beaten to the punch by Remington with their Model 30. Was that proto-54 then resurrected to compete with the Model 30?

That would be my guess, but after the war it was obvious bolt actions would play a big role in big game hunting in America. Several companies had already moved with 'em, including Savage with the 1920.

You gotta wonder what Savage's place in bolt action history would have been if they had marketed a long action 1920 in 256 Newton, 7x57, 30-06, and ??? at the same time as the short action 1920 in 250-3000 and 300 Savage.

I heard that he also shot a Mesican 7x57 reamed out to 7mm-'03

It is not well known, but on the eight day, after having a day off to fully consider all possible options, God created the 270 Winchester.

And here I thought it was the founding fathers.

Correction - the 6.7x63 Uber Neuber was based on the 6.8x57 Chinese Mauser

No idea what twist these metrics used.

I have read so many different accounts on how the 270 Winchester came into being, that it gets all very muddled. Till I pared down my collection some years back, I had 6 rifles so chambered- I had also planed on selling a 7mm RM barrel that came on an R-93 I bought but it shot so well I just kept it! The bottom line is that the 270 is one of the best things ever to come out of Winchester period! And in 2015 its a way better cartridge that it was when introduced in 1925 or when JOC started writing about it in the late 1930's and in the post WW-II years. Its a good balanced flat shooting cartridge that will handle most of the world big game with out a hitch, the only requirement is being able to shoot. There is so much over lap between .257 cal to .338 cal that it really makes no real difference on what the bullet launcher is, stick a good bullet in the right spot and make sure you have a sharp knife!

Jack o'Conner also has a 275 H&H built and Western made the ammo. Mos have never heard of the 275 H&H. Basically a belted 280 rem in velocity.

Doc

The 6.7mm X 63mm is precisely the same cartridge as the .270 Winchester.
Invented by an Austrian company Neuber and Sohn in 1911.

Steve, your spelling is impeccable!

I live near Lewiston and have probably seen your souse around one of the local watering wholes!

I'd also be willing to bet plenty of the information provided on this 'fire is supplied by reliable souses. I hear the news media relies upon them also.

Thanks for your wonderful comments sir. And for helping to keep the grand old cartridge of the Empire alive.

Geno

That guy looks like my cousin who is a Shriner and a drag queen.

When I was a young gunsmith in Kamloops B.C., A fellow brought in an old Model 54 to see about having it scoped. The rifle was in 270 Winchester and the serial number was No.21 marked in engraved script. I was reluctant to modify the rifle and gave the guy the address for Winchester records and told him to write for more info. He came back into the shop a couple months later with his letter which stated that he possessed the first 270 to leave the factory. The rifle had been sent to Ashley Haines, who was the gun writer for Outdoor Life and who lived in Salmon Arm, for evaluation. Turned out this guy's wife was a niece or great niece of Haines and he had ended up with the rifle. I like to think he donated to the Cody museum or something but probably not. GD

You're welcome. Seriousity seems to be taken too seriously around here.

Props Valsdad, TFF !

On behalf of Ingwe, Who cares?

He didn't have anything else to do....because he didn't own a 30/06!!

The .270 was invented by my great, great, grandmother. When the people in her village found out she was summarily tied to a stake in the courthouse square and burned to death.