Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Where's the node?

Sorry for the sideways photo. I can't rotate it.

You shoot like my friend Troy... Keep trying, you'll get better one of these days.......

6-7-8

Thanks for the encouragment. At seventy-one I don't have time to get better.

4-5-6

I'd try loads from 5 to 6 in .2 increments

I would also work on loads 4,5,6 and do as BN said. Are you sure you didn't pull #3 out?

Wouldn't of it been easier to just stick with the .264 Win Mag? I know; I know.

What is your end goal with all this stuff ringman?

That was my thought. Would try some loads between 4 & 6 with 0.2-0.3gr spread.

GregW,
I am looking for the most accurate load with the least amount of rounds fired.

Nodes can get lost in the "noise" if you've got other stuff going on. I don't see what I would feel confident identifying as a node there.

I would suggest the node lies in 2, 4 & 6 with 8 being on the same plain but outside the true node, maybe it was pulled.
I would load .3gr increments from 4 through to 8 and re-test. I would not bother with 2, 5 or 7 in the next test string. Just load .3gr above and below 4, 6 and 8.

Cheers.

This is not how it works. Shots are consecutive as is the node.

Yup. Even if there's an accuracy load there the window is way to tight, especially if he's considering long range hunting.

I'd start over.




Travis

Where's the node? What's the frequency. Kenneth?

Would have to agree.

Data too random to make conclusions.

DF

Also, with a cartridge like that I'd be prone to load it to the gills and just make sure it was MOA or better at the 100. Then I'd load up a pile and use the barrel life for practice.

I can't see any reason to leave velocity on the table with that type of big game cartridge.



Travis

agreed. that is already more rounds in load development than I've used in my last three rifles combined.

Quit shooting groups. Load to case capacity with slow powder, seat the bullet to the base of the neck, then go kill something. I never saw a group kill anything...

Ringman ain't gonna be happy with that advice.

He's a real Loony and wants to find the absolute best load for that gun. Inquiring minds and such...

You guys are way too practical...

So practical in fact, you're in danger of losing your Loony status...

DF

You have the right idea, however the results are so random that reaching any conclusion from this is futile. A ladder test at 300 yards is IMHO the best way to find the node. Finding a node will allow for some variation in temp and charge weight without having vertical dispersion down range. That can be the difference between a kill, crippled animal, or total miss. Once proper charge weight has been determined, groups can be tightened by varying the bullet seating depth. The final step is to determine the ballistics for the load to as far as you are capable of shooting. I must say that by the ladder test photo shown, I would be hesitant to shoot that rifle beyond 50 yards. It probably won't make minute of pie plate. I had a 6 SLR that I never could get to shoot. I rechambered it to 6 Dasher and my wife now uses it as her target rifle. It shoots sweet. Hopefully, all of this has my looney status high enough to keep me in good standing.

I'd go 400 yds. if possible. With a tight shooting gun, you need separation. I've done that with a good gun, and even at 400 with a great spotting scope, I've had to make several 4 wheeler trips to the target to ID bullet strikes.

DF

There's loonyism, and then there's nuckin futs...

My problem with ladder testing (yeah, I've done it a few times with no avail) is you are running the experiment one time and expecting to hit the jackpot. It's like shooting a single 3-shot group to find an accuracy load.

Not even close.

If an Audette is shot properly and no node is clearly visible, either your rifle doesn't like the components chosen or the rifle itself sucks ass.

That's where the Bullseye target camera system comes in

Looking at the target photo provided, going from 300 to 400 yards will certainly not help. That is obviously not a "tight shooting gun".

Well, I didn't want to talk about Ringman's gun or his groups...

That camera system would be nice, would save time and 4 wheeler trips to the target...

DF

I wouldn't shoot a 400 yd. Audette with a gun that wasn't shooting half MOA at a hundred. That would equate to 2" or so at 400. Those bullets can land pretty close.

DF

and then, if the 'node' is below max, you have the decision to make whether to accept more drift/drop and go with the 'accuracy' load or to load your cartridge to it's potential and give up micro-groups.

You always go with the accuracy load that shows no vertical at long range.

Why would anyone choose the highest velocity load that isn't accurate? ie; a load that has vertical AND horizontal which equates to just plain 'ole BIG GROUPS.

An accurate load with no vertical makes long range shooting a lot easier, regardless if you are leaving 100 fps on the table. Your drops are your drops, period.


For example, you have a long range shot and know the distance (of course). With a load like I'm talking about, you don't worry about the rifle throwing it high or low AND worry about wind.





I can see impacts at over 600 on my targets through the scope. You need to make your own "shoot and see" targets.

Also, finding the node is a lot easier when your entire ladder IS the node.




600 yard ladder with the .264, RL-33 and the 139 Scenar.

The medium Palma Krieger is the best barrel I've owned. I just picked the highest velocity load that didn't show pressure because they all went in the same place at 600. Shot three at 100 to see:

Let me put it another way...

The advantage to a large capacity case is diminished if you don't take advantage of the large capacity case. So if I had to load it down, I'd sell it.




Travis

you'd have to have a really crappy barrel to throw them farther from POA than the wind does in my world, and I don't suffer really crappy barrels.

no, wind is the enemy. I go for speed and if the barrel isn't throwing them POA at full pressure, it goes down the road...

I'm not a stranger to Krieger in .264" bore.

rcamuglia,

One of my .224 wildcats was like that. It was too good to be true for this wannabe shooter. Its first five shot group was .256" and averaged 4,005 feet per second.

Today I loaded twenty-five with number six. Five at the 2.941 and five each at minus -.010", -.020", -.030", and -.040". I read somewhere getting the OAL should be established asap was paramount to maximum accuracy.

I remember when I was enamoured by velocity.


...about the same year I had my first beer.

2013?

I remember being impressed by muzzle velocity, but have always strived for maximum accuracy. That being said, I choose the highest velocity node from my ladder test and work on the accuracy with seating depth. The higher velocity nodes provide the least time in the wind, thus less time for deflection. Even more important in the equation is bullet BC. Go here: http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi and see how lighter bullet weights, traveling at higher velocities fare against heavier bullet weights of better BC's, traveling slower. Compare with regards to bullet drop and and wind movement @ a 10 mph crosswind.
That 600 yard ladder test is unreal. I haven't worked with the .264 but I have never shot a 300 yard test with that little amount of change in elevation. What were your powder charges?

I think you'd have to be super UBER special to turn a 26 Nosler into a 6.5 Creed in less than 500 rounds, and be proud of the end results.



Travis

I don't think that will happen to any cartridge that happens to have its best accuracy a grain of 2 short of book max. In fact with the .300 WM ladder I posted, book max was around 74 grains showing a velocity at 2700 or less. I hit pressure at 72.5 grains with a velocity of 2825 and good accuracy just a bit lower. Wind drift difference between the two velocities is 2" at 600 yards.

Check that. It's possible to turn a 26 Nosler into a Creedmoor with Blue Dot!

LOL!

I started at 70 grains and ended at 73. I thought 70 would be a good place to start as I was using 77 grains with my last barrel.

Shows the difference between a worn out throat and a brand new chamber in regards to pressure with the same lot of powder.

I was just exaggerating to be an ass hole.



Travis

I don't know if anyone looked closely enough at the load data in the picture. it states a window from 73-76 grains of rl 33. I looked up the 6.5slr cartridge and I am hoping the OP just wrote the wrong numbers and is not trying to fit that amount if powder into a cartridge with 55grains of water capacity.

Different SLR.

you have a link I would like to check it out.

It's Rich's wet dream. 300 ultramag case necked down.

No, but I think the specs are written on an index card, stored in a mayonnaise jar under Funk & Wagnall's porch.

85grNBTat3500FPS,



You could use some logic and realize the 6.5slr could not push a bullet that weight that fast. Then you might ask a question like, "What is a 6.5SLR?"

Then I could tell you it is a 9.3X64 Brenneke necked to 6.5 with the shoulder blown out and some Weatherby radii added for beauty. The neck is about .300". The base is nominally .500". Once I had a fired case I discovered it holds 83.4 grains of water. That is very close to a .264 Win Mag.

I think this wildcat is number fourteen for me. The "SLR" stands for Sue Loves Rich and doesn't hassle him about his wildcats. Dave Manson of Precision Reamers name this one. The one after this is a 7RUM necked down to 6.5 with the shoulder pushed back about .100". It holds 109 grains of water. Ben at Hornady named it "6.5RUMLN.

I hope that clarifies things.

P.S. All the links are here on 24hourcampfire.com

Maybe didn't let the barrel cool down between ?

Strick9,

That test took two hours to complete. I believe the barrel is shot out. I ordered another yesterday when my shooting took four hours.

I hear ya Ringer. I saw some of your other ladders and they certainly pointed to some good nodes brother. I have had those days myself when no matter what I do , the node just won't peek out and smile.. What mfg tube are you going with?

That tube is a worn out Pac-Nor. I ordered a new one yesterday while at the range. They told me it is ten weeks out so I will take this rifle to them since "I'm in line" now with the 50% deposit for them to chamber and install it on my action. The quote is $650 including threading it for a brake.

Round count?

Somewhere north of 20 and south of 27.

You could have had a Bartlein barrel shipped in to you ups 2nd day...

mathman,



Around a thousand.

What?
This test mirrors OCW testing, not ladder testing, when is the node consecutive?
I must be doing it wrong!

Today I started with #6 which is 75.5 grains and dropped .3 grains for four loads. 75.5 produced the best of the four groups. Tomorrow I will fire four groups with four different primers.

Ringman,
If you tell me what cartridge, bullet, powder and barrel length you are using I can give you an idea of where your node will be from internal ballistics. With the last barrel I bought I had a load done in 20 rounds. I can get your velocities off your original post.

How many hunts has it been on in that time? Figure fewer than I would be happy with, but just curious.

see next post.

foggybottombob,

Sounds good. The cartridge is a wildcat which hold about 83-84 grains of water to the top of the neck. I will use Barnes 6.5 LRX127 in a 26" long 8" twist Pac-Nor barrel. Hopefully this will be enough info.

pointer,

My heart breaks to tell you it hasn't even been on a jack rabbit hunt. That is my favorite kind of hunting.

Thought that may be the case. I sure as heck wouldn't have played around with a rifle for 1000rds that I intended to hunt with and not hunt it. Hope your having fun with it...

pointer,

This will be the fourth barrel. I do enjoy shooting.

Your version of shooting seems about as much fun as pouring cash into a burn barrel.





Travis

Good pun.




Clark

Thanks.




Travis

You talking to yourself these days...???

DF

He's the only one that will listen to himself.





Dave