Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Case Closed: FBI Says 9mm Is The Best Pistol Round

He do have a point, don't he?

If the FBI statistics don't apply, it doesn't exist.

That's pretty much what this entire thread is about.

The "best" mindset or skill level needn't apply.

If his point is "I don't understand what split times are", then yes.

Shooting someone "right now and well" involves hitting them quickly and accurately. And since "gunfights" involve shooting people more than once.....I guess split times are relevant.

That's not the first time that "split times" have been mocked here. And it's only because of the lingo, which I find absolutely absurd. If you replaced "split time" with "shootin' yer smoke wagon real fast and hittin' wut yer aimin' at" then everybody would be on board.

You're right.

The best shooters will benefit less from reduced recoil because they're good enough to compensate.

But the less skilled you are as a shooter, the more you'll benefit from switching to a 9mm from something bigger. And that's why the FBI is recommending 9s to LE agencies, who employ people of all shapes and sizes and abilities. And rightfully so.
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But apparently every swinging dick on the campfire is so advanced that they can shoot .40s and .45s and 9s all equally.

Which I think is hilarious.

You're wanting a needless and irrelevant fight, again. Carry on.

LOL, I also think it's hilarious that every time you step on your dick then whatever the topic is becomes irrelevant.

Explain to me how I stepped on my dick by stating that the Sarge had a point when he stated that gunfights are won by folks that have the cojones to shoot a SOB right damned now, shoot them well, and decisively?

Dithering around gets your dead, no matter how quick your split times, or how large your pistol/cartridge. That was the Sarge's point, and that's what I agreed with. Now, how is that stepping on my dick?

Or, is that not relevant in Tejas?

Because that's not ALL he said, duh.

His point was that:
1-Mock split times.
2-Say that shooting real fast was important.

THEY'RE THE SAME THING. So when he mocked what he said was so important I think he's either stupid or just doesn't understand what he's talking about.

And when you say that SMO not making any sense is SMO having a good point, that's you stepping on your dick.
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Yeah, that's why split times (shooting real fast.....not dithering) are important.

You jokers are saying "split times matter" in different words but are too dense to realize it.



LOL, cue the standard VANimrod "when all else fails" response.

The FBI findings and conclusions are aimed at finding the "best" tool for the "average" LEO. Unfortunately that "average" officer is typically one with minimal experience with firearms, minimal training, almost non-existent practice time and comes in all sizes including women and smaller men.

When viewed in this light it may well be that the 9mm is the best weapon for qualifying ALL officers with a minimal proficiency in a minimal amount of time.

That does not mean the 9mm is more effective in the hands of an experienced shooter who practices regularly. However, in the real world "most" officers do not practice enough to become proficient with any but the minimal effective firearms.

I have worked in law enforcement and can say from experience the typical officer can not handle more than 9mm recoil. A .45 or .40 might be marginally more effective in theory, but the added recoil makes that slight advantage meaningless if you can't hit what you are aiming at. The additional amount of rounds in a 9mm pistol are very important when 70% of your shots are misses. When your method is "spray and pray", you need a lot of rounds to spray around.

My own "testing" of the various rounds has been largely against deer and hogs (roughly the same size as a man) and the larger rounds DO have a definite advantage....on average. The largest rounds are not ALWAYS effective, nor are the smallest rounds ALWAYS ineffective.

In my experience the .45 is probably the "best" service round (for those with enough experience to handle the recoil) as it hits harder and kills effectively. The .40 is effective but the recoil is excessive in the smaller framed guns it is typically chambered in. The 9mm is "almost" as effective as the .40 with less recoil than the .40 and a smaller framed gun than the typical .45. The 10mm is by far the "best" round but it will always come in a larger framed gun (which those with smaller hands will find objectionable) and has a recoil that very few can use as well as a .45. I have used the 9mm on game, but cannot say it is anywhere close to being "best" unless very carefully placed.

That's basically what the FBI has found. The 10mm is "great" but truly usable by a minority of officers. The .45 is great, but requires a frame that is still too large for some (with reduced magazine capacity). The .40 and 9mm are so close together in effectiveness to be equal.....but the 9mm wins in lowered recoil and magazine capacity.

Does that make the 9mm "best" for everyone....no. For those who practice enough and have hands large enough to handle the bigger frames, the .45 is more effective. The 10mm is definitely better, but only a very small number of officers can effectively deal with the size of the guns and increased recoil.

For "most" officers the 9mm is indeed the answer when a department has to deal with hundreds (or thousands) of different officers of various sizes and experience (or lack there of).

For those who can handle the bigger guns, they will likely be more effective. If for no other reason than because the shooters will have confidence in their weapon....and that plays a huge role in how effectively a gun is used. On the other hand if one is using a gun that does not fit and recoils at a level that they are not comfortable with....effectiveness goes out the window.

Hate to admit it, but the FBI just might be right that the 9mm is the "best" choice for all officers. I cannot agree with their conclusions that it is more effective but any hit is better than a miss with something bigger....and for the "typical" officer, that is often the choice that has to be made.

Huh? Eric, wtf are you talking about?

I've yet to mock "split times". I simply said that the Sarge had a point when he stated that a decisive shooter makes all the difference; everything else is moot.

You're hung up on defending split times, and I've no truck with that at all.

Carry on, though, as your ass is clearly on your shoulders over something. For a "giver", you sure do get torqued up about the strangest schit. It's beneath you, and that, friend, is a compliment.

Nothing screams hitting multiple times with greater ease than a mass produced, one size fits all 9mm auto with a schit trigger....unless trying the same with something larger/worse.

Better yet, make it a DAO....

Maybe if you were in charge of buying the duty ammo and going through the seminars you'd be as wise.

FBI "truths" aside, I'd bet most here shoot a wheelgun SA or DA better than they can an auto, regardless of cartridge, unless all they are accustomed to is a duty auto; which begs the question of getting accustomed to anything.

Evidently not what you're talking about, and I'll take your word about that. I'm pretty sure we're both screaming at each other about two different things. The "strange things" that we get twisted up about are only strange to those on the outside, in our minds they're always completely rational. But that's what happens without inflection I guess.

Apologies as appropriate, even if it's not needed.










Except to JohnW, I'm pretty sure he's still nuts.

Likely so. Apologies as appropriate as well, even if not needed either.

Will my 9mm actually kill anything?

No. They bounce off paper at 75 yards and only penetrate paper at 50 if you use FMJ.

Yes and so do bathtub falls. I predict the 2016 FBI Issue Handgun to be a robot pushing wheeled, claw-foot bathtub half full of soapy water. You simply ram the perp with it, he falls in and might even break his neck. They could assign one to teams of four agents to save money and simplify qualification.

The only 'split time' is if the perp's feet go opposite directions when he falls into the tub.

Yankin' yer chain, Blue

Something that keeps getting repeated just got me to wondering... One of the beliefs is that one will hit better in a gun fight with a smaller easier to control caliber. I am just wondering where the stats on that are...or if they even exist.

It isn't like the 9mm is a new kid on the block like the .40 S&W was. I just wonder if the FBI in their study of this matter pulled up a whole bunch of gun fights of similar distances with different calibers and determined if there was any wide disparity in the hit percentage.

When I was with Dallas PD in the 1970s and 80s we were allowed to carry any:
S&W, Colt or Browning Handgun with a 3-6.5" barrel.
9mm, .38 Super, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, .45 ACP and .45 Auto Rim (Investigators could also carry .380 ACP)

I knew people who carried every cartridge and knew officers who were in gun fights with 9mm, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum and .45 ACP. No one I knew ever missed because their gun was too powerful or difficult to control....and these were just "average" officers. Of the several hundred gun fights I knew of, and we averaged 80 officer involved shooting a year, I can only remember a few that went over three shots fired by the officer.

In the 1986 Miami FBI shootout the agents were equipped with the easiest to shoot guns and calibers made...9mm semis and .38 Specials being fired in .357s. They had been through the top LE instruction in the country. Three were FBI SWAT trained. Ever look at the hit count vs. number of rounds fired....
(leaving Mireles out)
6 rounds fired at 8'...one possible hit.
30 rounds fired at 30'...one hit, two possible
9 rounds fired at 30'...one hit
12 rounds fired at 35 yards...one possible hit
16 rounds fired at 35 yards....one possible hit
5 rounds fired at 40'...no hits


Instead of 36-50 round qualification courses where one just stands there and absorbs recoil, maybe instead each officer could be put in a shoot house with realistic targets at realistic distances and see what happens...

And if one reads the original study back in the late 1980s in the aftermath of Miami, one of the most important factors the panel found in handgun effectiveness was the perception of the officer carrying the gun/ammo combo. I don't see that addressed anywhere in the new study...

Just some thoughts...Bob

If you have a shooter that is struggling with a Glock, M&P, P2000, etc., they'll really fall to pieces if you put a revolver in their hands.

And thumbing hammers is for chicks.



Travis

Well, I can tell you that my 25ACP is a tack driver....

Still irrelevant. The ONE HUNDRED YEAR OLD tests were valid as they went to effects of particular calibers against a specific medium. Same for the various "one shot" stop statistics.

Fortunately, flave couched the argument in the context that made sense; more lead on target, faster and more precise bullet placement trumps less and bigger rounds and less accuracy, which goes to the issue of the "person" behind the weapon and their ability to hit what they aim at.