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Why Atheists are more honest than Christians

"First, let's discuss one of my favorite subjects--semantics. It would seem that we live in an age of word manipulation. Perhaps this has always been so...

Many logical fallacies depend on the straw man of distorted definition. This can be seen on many internet threads pertaining to religious and political themes (not to mention News networks). Before one tackles a certain issue or makes claims upon such, it behooves one to be clear on just exactly WHAT they mean when they use a certain term. To that end, let's define some notably pliable and problematic words...

For this discussion I define the term 'Christian' as it is commonly (if rather loosely) understood and used in American Evangelical and Protestant world. "One who claims to believe that Jesus was/is God incarnate and who believes in a penal/substitutionary atonement theological (and soteriological) view." There are several a priori and post hoc beliefs involved with that definition but they tend to be self evident. I believe this to be a misleading and false definition of true Christianity but that is irrelevant to this discussion.

Now when it comes to the term "atheist" there is far more confusion and confabulation than in regards to something as broad and murky as "Christian". Too often, it's the religious folk who decide that THEY are the ones who get to define exactly what an atheist "is" or believes. A sneaky backdoor to the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy, as it were. This obfuscation and redefining to suits one purpose has deep roots in mankind's psyche--and not just in the religious realm.

To be fair and honest one only needs to ask true atheists how they define themselves.
Here is the American Atheists Association definition:

---------------------
What Is Atheism?
No one asks this question enough.

The reason no one asks this question a lot is because most people have preconceived ideas and notions about what an Atheist is and is not. Where these preconceived ideas come from varies, but they tend to evolve from theistic influences or other sources.

Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. Older dictionaries define atheism as "a belief that there is no God." Some dictionaries even go so far as to define Atheism as "wickedness," "sinfulness," and other derogatory adjectives. Clearly, theistic influence taints dictionaries. People cannot trust these dictionaries to define atheism. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as "there is no God" betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read "there are no gods."

Why should atheists allow theists to define who atheists are? Do other minorities allow the majority to define their character, views, and opinions? No, they do not. So why does everyone expect atheists to lie down and accept the definition placed upon them by the world’s theists? Atheists will define themselves.

Atheism is not a belief system nor is it a religion. While there are some religions that are atheistic (certain sects of Buddhism, for example), that does not mean that atheism is a religion. Two commonly used retorts to the nonsense that atheism is a religion are: 1) If atheism is a religion then bald is a hair color, and 2) If atheism is a religion then health is a disease. A new one introduced in 2012 by Bill Maher is, "If atheism is a religion, then abstinence is a sexual position."

The only common thread that ties all atheists together is a lack of belief in gods and supernatural beings. Some of the best debates we have ever had have been with fellow atheists. This is because atheists do not have a common belief system, sacred scripture or atheist Pope. This means atheists often disagree on many issues and ideas. Atheists come in a variety of shapes, colors, beliefs, convictions, and backgrounds. We are as unique as our fingerprints.

--------------------



For a further in depth look at the differences between lack of belief, disbelief and denial here is a short lesson...

http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/a/DisbeliefDenial.htm
-------------------

Where am I going with all of this and how does it pertain to the title? Simple.



There is no concrete, verifiable proof of gods/God. Period. (Please don't even start with the circular 'nature' argument.) Without that proof all you are left with is, indeed, faith. And, to head you off at the pass, this isn't an attack on faith. There's nothing inherently wrong with faith itself (its by-products can be another story). The problem is with those 'believers' who talk out of one side of their mouth about the importance of faith and then state that said faith is 'fact' and can be proven. THAT'S where the belief stops and the Bullschit starts...



I can count on one hand (with leftovers) the Christians who have the moral, intellectual and spiritual honesty to say, "I choose to believe this not because of facts or proof but because I want to'. And, again, let me stress...that's ok. However, it leads to at least two questions for me..



One, because it is a matter of pure 'faith' (belief without or in the face of facts) how do you regard your version as any better or 'truer' than another's?

Two, (and this is the big, important one for me) how does your 'faith' then make you a better person? Because most Religious people I've met end up using their beliefs to judge others and make themselves feel superior--sometimes 'innocently' and often maliciously.



In the end, both atheists and Christians have the same evidence for God/gods...none. The Christian chooses to believe anyway and tries to convince you it's fact. The atheists chooses no belief and doesn't try to convince you of anything.

Who's more honest?"




It ain't what you don't know that makes you an idiot...it's what you know for certain, that just ain't so...

Most people don't want to believe the truth~they want the truth to be what they believe.

Stupidity has no average...
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There's no proof that there isn't a god or gods either, just sayin. FWIW I'd fall under the atheist camp by most definitions.

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MojoHand;
Good evening to you sir, I trust this finds you well and keeping well away from the fires and smoke.

If I may, I've got a question for you since it appears to me there's a category of folks that have been omitted.

Where or how do you or the author classify people who have had experiences in their lives that cannot be explained by science or logic?

We can call them "supernatural" or "miracles" or simply leave the experiences as unexplained - but where will we put those folks?

I'm cognizant that my experiences are not yours as yours are not my own and neither one of us can truly understand or perhaps even empathize with someone else whose life experience is vastly different from our own.

But supposing there are people out there who have had such things happen to them that cannot be explained - would it be acceptable for those individuals to believe in "something more" than we can see, feel, touch or explain with currently understood science?

Just curious is all sir.

As I age I'm increasingly leery of anyone who says, "these people" are "always that way" and this is why - if you know what I mean?

All the best to you in the remaining fleeting days of summer sir and good luck on your hunts this fall.

Dwayne


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Agnostics are the most honest people.

They don't know, and neither does anybody else.


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I rather successfully ran my career as an agnostic. I worked just fine.


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Originally Posted by MojoHand



I can count on one hand (with leftovers) the Christians who have the moral, intellectual and spiritual honesty to say, "I choose to believe this not because of facts or proof but because I want to'. And, again, let me stress...that's ok. However, it leads to at least two questions for me..



One, because it is a matter of pure 'faith' (belief without or in the face of facts) how do you regard your version as any better or 'truer' than another's?

Two, (and this is the big, important one for me) how does your 'faith' then make you a better person? Because most Religious people I've met end up using their beliefs to judge others and make themselves feel superior--sometimes 'innocently' and often maliciously.



In the end, both atheists and Christians have the same evidence for God/gods...none. The Christian chooses to believe anyway and tries to convince you it's fact. The atheists chooses no belief and doesn't try to convince you of anything.

Who's more honest?"




I will be honest with you. I believe in God and Jesus Christ, the Son OF God. Why, because I want to, I made that choice myself without any need for proof. In fact I will go on record as saying not only is their no proof but it may even be a sin to try to find a proof. I believe because I believe and that's all I need.

Just out of curiosity, which finger am I? I won't be upset if you say the middle. grin


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Originally Posted by BC30cal
MojoHand;
Good evening to you sir, I trust this finds you well and keeping well away from the fires and smoke.

If I may, I've got a question for you since it appears to me there's a category of folks that have been omitted.

Where or how do you or the author classify people who have had experiences in their lives that cannot be explained by science or logic?

We can call them "supernatural" or "miracles" or simply leave the experiences as unexplained - but where will we put those folks?

I'm cognizant that my experiences are not yours as yours are not my own and neither one of us can truly understand or perhaps even empathize with someone else whose life experience is vastly different from our own.

But supposing there are people out there who have had such things happen to them that cannot be explained - would it be acceptable for those individuals to believe in "something more" than we can see, feel, touch or explain with currently understood science?

Just curious is all sir.

As I age I'm increasingly leery of anyone who says, "these people" are "always that way" and this is why - if you know what I mean?

All the best to you in the remaining fleeting days of summer sir and good luck on your hunts this fall.

Dwayne


Dwayne,

That is a good question. Mojo's views maybe different then mine, but I'm happy to take a stab at it as well.

Let's presume for a moment that someone's had an experience like you describe, something in their favor, that no one else is able to verify, and the is unable to explain.

A skeptic would just admit, "I don't know". This may be the most honest position a person could take. There are many phenomenon in this world that I do not understand. That does not mean they are the result of supernatural intervention, it just means I don't know.

Now let's say the experience was so incredible, the individual believes it is reasonable to credit a supernatural origin for the event, how do you make the logical jump to "God/Jesus did it". In order to do that you must discard all other possible supernatural causes, everything from Leprechauns, witchcraft, voodoo, all the other gods that have ever been proposed, Russel's Tea Pot, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and all other forms of Magic. So even if you decide it is a supernatural act, you still have all your work ahead of your before you can credit for favored God.

In addition, "I don't know, therefore God", is the joining of a logical fallacy, and a largely discredited god concept. The fallacy is an "Argument from Ignorance", and the "God of the Gaps" theory. Once upon a time, the gaps were very large, but they've shrunk significantly since The Enlightenment.

Often, the types of events you describe are only perceived in the mind of the person who has the experience. Consequently they have no evidence they can offer to validate their experience. Now one of the basis tenants of skepticism, is that the evidence needs to be proportionate to the claim. If you claimed to own a 30.06, that's a pretty ordinary claim, so it would be reasonable to believe you on a minimum of evidence. However, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We've all seen how many people were duped for decades with the hoax pictures of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster. Since miracles are an extraordinary claim, the skeptic is probably asking what's more likely, that the laws of nature were suspended in this persons favor, or someone had a misperception?

If, however the evidence is extraordinary enough, you can change the mind of a skeptic, including this one.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Atheists work on Christmas and don't take the bonus; I think that's the meaning of the thread....

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Originally Posted by Ghostinthemachine
Agnostics are the most honest people.

They don't know, and neither does anybody else.



Agnosticism is a question of knowledge, atheism is a question of belief. Knowledge and belief are two separate things.

Technically a agnostic is someone who states they do not know a god or gods exist. If they believed any god had met their burden of proof, they would no longer be an agnostic. As a result, agnostics are technically atheist as well.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by HawkI
Atheists work on Christmas and don't take the bonus; I think that's the meaning of the thread....


The only time I've ever worked on Christmas was when my Nation, through he U.S Army, asked. Once again you continue to prove you know nothing about Atheist.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Thank you for being honest....

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Originally Posted by Scott F
Originally Posted by MojoHand



I can count on one hand (with leftovers) the Christians who have the moral, intellectual and spiritual honesty to say, "I choose to believe this not because of facts or proof but because I want to'. And, again, let me stress...that's ok. However, it leads to at least two questions for me..



One, because it is a matter of pure 'faith' (belief without or in the face of facts) how do you regard your version as any better or 'truer' than another's?

Two, (and this is the big, important one for me) how does your 'faith' then make you a better person? Because most Religious people I've met end up using their beliefs to judge others and make themselves feel superior--sometimes 'innocently' and often maliciously.



In the end, both atheists and Christians have the same evidence for God/gods...none. The Christian chooses to believe anyway and tries to convince you it's fact. The atheists chooses no belief and doesn't try to convince you of anything.

Who's more honest?"




I will be honest with you. I believe in God and Jesus Christ, the Son OF God. Why, because I want to, I made that choice myself without any need for proof. In fact I will go on record as saying not only is their no proof but it may even be a sin to try to find a proof. I believe because I believe and that's all I need.

Just out of curiosity, which finger am I? I won't be upset if you say the middle. grin


Scott, per usual, you provide a straight forward honest answer.

As for the question, is it a sin to seek proof, many belief the search is justified by 1st Peter 3:15, which I will paraphrase for you:

...be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you...

Technically, you met your requirement by stating the hope in you is from Faith alone, but others may feed the need to present a logical argument to the logical minded.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Quote
Mojo: "The Christian chooses to believe anyway and tries to convince you it's fact."
Mojo – a poor assumption and weak position. Seems like you have pumped yourself up too much in an effort to press your views. I am a Christian and not for one second do I – or would I – say a word in trying to convince you or any atheist (or any agnostic) of the existence of God. I know quite a few Christians and believe they act the same.

BTW, your post seems to be aimed at something other than the stated topic.


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Originally Posted by CCCC
Quote
Mojo: "The Christian chooses to believe anyway and tries to convince you it's fact."
Mojo – a poor assumption and weak position. Seems like you have pumped yourself up too much in an effort to press your views. I am a Christian and not for one second do I – or would I – say a word in trying to convince you or any atheist (or any agnostic) of the existence of God. I know quite a few Christians and believe they act the same.

BTW, your post seems to be aimed at something other than the stated topic.


Come on CCCC, you've tried to convince me before. But considering how it was in this forum, I'd say it was fair, and give you a pass.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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I look at it a little differently.

Christians claim a belief,..or truism, so do atheists. However,no one really 'knows' they are correct...couldn't possibly know.

I'm in the agnostic camp. Personally I hope it's all true, but I have my doubts...as does everyone.

Most honest answer.

Christianity gives rise to great hope and great societies, so it's alright by me. My dad was a Lutheran minister for 48 years.



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[/quote]

I will be honest with you. I believe in God and Jesus Christ, the Son OF God. Why, because I want to, I made that choice myself without any need for proof. In fact I will go on record as saying not only is their no proof but it may even be a sin to try to find a proof. I believe because I believe and that's all I need.

Just out of curiosity, which finger am I? I won't be upset if you say the middle. grin [/quote]


I find it interesting that you believe there is no proof.

What about fulfilled Bible prophesy that has all come true? For instance the prophesy of the destruction of Babylon and the bibles claim that it would never be inhabited again. One can go to Irac and see for yourself the ancient ruins and that the city has never been inhabited again though rebuilding has been tried by several and failed.

What about Isaiah's claim that the earth is round and hanging apon nothing thousands of years before the popular belief was that the world is not flat?

Why is it the year 2015?

Why is the bible the one book that has been sought to be destroyed by governments all over the world yet for some reason is the most widely distributed book in history today?

We humans ourselves are absolute proof that intelligent life is in fact a reality unless of course we are imagining all of this.

We are absolute proof of the fact that other intelligent life is a possibity and therefore cannot intelligently dismiss the possibility of intelligent entities elsewhere such as God.

If God is in fact the most intelligent being in the universe than the bible that is claimed to be inspired by God should contain wisdom that is far beyond any other book one could attain.

If God does exist and one reads the bible and finds it ignorant it would speak volumes about ones lack of intellect.

There is a very wise saying in Proverbs that says......it is foolishness on one part to make a conclusion on a matter before hearing all of the matter.

As far as your question about whether or not Christians are dishonest. If someone one is dishonest that person is not a Christian.

The bible states.......Liars will not inherit the kingdom.

2 Timothy 3 1-5 gives examples of false Christian during the last days. It says.......many will have a FORM of Godly devotion but will prove false to its power. From these ones stay away!!!

Perhaps these are the dishonest ones you might be referring too.






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Originally Posted by Ghostinthemachine
I look at it a little differently.

Christians claim a belief,..or truism, so do atheists. However,no one really 'knows' they are correct...couldn't possibly know.

I'm in the agnostic camp. Personally I hope it's all true, but I have my doubts...as does everyone.

Most honest answer.

Christianity gives rise to great hope and great societies, so it's alright by me. My dad was a Lutheran minister for 48 years.





Ghost,

You don't understand modern atheism. Considering how most ministers intentionally distort atheism, it doesn't surprise me your perception are a little off, so let me clear it up for you.

When a Christian assets a God exists, they are making a positive claim.

The most common form of Atheism, is called "soft atheism", or just Atheism, and does not make any positive claim. The position of the soft Atheist is that NO GOD, OR GODS, HAVE MET THEIR BURDEN OF PROOF. That's it, nothing more.

There are also Anti-theist, which are also called "Hard Atheist", and they do make the positive claim, that there is not God, or Gods.

Another position held by some atheist is that no god or gods have met their burned of proof, and certain god concepts (but not necessarily all of them) can be disproven.

So Atheism is not a monolithic position, there are many variations within it.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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I dont suppose anyone really needs to ask the question "where do we come from" or maybe better stated "how did we come to be".Its explaining this that religion begins.Any explanation is religion because no one was there.We all have our proof to support what we believe in.All belief systems are religion including evolution as it is just another theory.The only difference is what you have faith in.

Last edited by jdm953; 08/26/15. Reason: make more clear

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Originally Posted by BC30cal


As I age I'm increasingly leery of anyone who says, "these people" are "always that way" and this is why - if you know what I mean?


Pretty much this…. ^

and:

Quote
Atheists come in a variety of shapes, colors, beliefs, convictions, and backgrounds. We are as unique as our fingerprints.


Sounds an awful lot like the Christians I know….


Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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