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Originally Posted by RJM
"I believe the accuracy/speed difference was determined by having a wide range of shooters shoot courses of fire with a Glock in a .40, and a Glock in a 9mm."

...I guess they just had to waste the ammo to prove what every halfway knowledgeable firearms instructor already knew...

...but again we have the tail wagging the dog. IPSC, IDPA and Qualification Courses have nothing to do with gun fighting. There is a whole bunch of officers who have been in gun fights with both a .40 and 9mm Glock. What I want to know is ON THE STREET in comparable shootings what is the hit percentage of the two. My belief is that there isn't going to be any. LE still has the same target shooting mentality they have had from the 1930s. In some segments it is getting better but overall not much.

Too may people are worrying about whether or not an officers "qualifies"...they should be worried about whether or not they live through a gun fight without also injuring a innocent party...

Hi_Vel...thanks for the nice words...
That's a damn good point.

I used to work with our local SWAT team as the medic, so I've shot with and trained with a lot of cops; they generally shoot for chit...even the SWAT guys (they were better with their MP5's). 16 years on the street as a medic, I've treated a few dozen guys shot by cops, some by the entry team I was assigned to. Our city cops carried Sig 226's in 9mm. The County guys carried a variety of guns, most were .40's and 9's, with a spattering of .45's.

Actual hits on humans, I never noticed much of a difference. (admittedly this is VERY anecdotal evidence). Both departments were FIRM subscribers to the truism that there is absolutely no additional paperwork for additional rounds; and just shot the chit out of the bad guys. With one exception, all the other LE shot patients I've had were shot AT LEAST 7 times. That's hits, and the number of misses in my town were surprisingly low.

Kinda funny, I could wax their arses all day long at the range, but when it got real, suddenly those guys could all shoot...I never could reconcile that after seeing their training, but it just was.

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Bill Allard of the NYPD was a member of the stakeout squad from inception to end and was involved in more gunfights than any other officer of the NYPD. Bill pistol of choice was a 1911 in 45 ACP loaded with Norma hollow points.



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imo what's largely changed the game is bullet technology.


from rifles to handguns, with better bullets you can afford to give up what "used to be" necessary recoil.


freakin bastids I just wish LEO would make up their minds.


I've always been a proponent to have platforms that use the prevalent cartridge LEO use.

your odds of never running out of ammo would seem to go up.


but truthfully I been shoppin for a 19 for momma for awhile.

I think she'd definitely prefer lighter recoiling rounds.


I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
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Originally Posted by jwp475


Bill Allard of the NYPD was a member of the stakeout squad from inception to end and was involved in more gunfights than any other officer of the NYPD. Bill pistol of choice was a 1911 in 45 ACP loaded with Norma hollow points.


I wonder if he's as butthurt by this study as everyone else.

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Originally Posted by johnw
Originally Posted by HawkI
Nothing screams hitting multiple times with greater ease than a mass produced, one size fits all 9mm auto with a schit trigger....unless trying the same with something larger/worse.

Better yet, make it a DAO....

Maybe if you were in charge of buying the duty ammo and going through the seminars you'd be as wise.

FBI "truths" aside, I'd bet most here shoot a wheelgun SA or DA better than they can an auto, regardless of cartridge, unless all they are accustomed to is a duty auto; which begs the question of getting accustomed to anything.


You'll be hard pressed to back that up with any actual research or relevant experience.


Don't need to. A Desert Eagle (or any other 44 Auto) has to be made and handle like a brick compared to a Smith 29, to comfortably and accurately fire and survive the same round.
At least gun manufacturers think that way.

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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by HawkI
Nothing screams hitting multiple times with greater ease than a mass produced, one size fits all 9mm auto with a schit trigger....unless trying the same with something larger/worse.

Better yet, make it a DAO....

Maybe if you were in charge of buying the duty ammo and going through the seminars you'd be as wise.

FBI "truths" aside, I'd bet most here shoot a wheelgun SA or DA better than they can an auto, regardless of cartridge, unless all they are accustomed to is a duty auto; which begs the question of getting accustomed to anything.


If you have a shooter that is struggling with a Glock, M&P, P2000, etc., they'll really fall to pieces if you put a revolver in their hands.

And thumbing hammers is for chicks.



Travis


Odd, all I ever really hear is "this one fits my hand" or "I can reach the trigger on this one". "This trigger is heavy".

Give them a magazine to load; that one really takes the cake.

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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Quote
Too may people are worrying about whether or not an officers "qualifies"...they should be worried about whether or not they live through a gun fight without also injuring a innocent party...


And how do you assess an officer's ability to do that without a standard to meet in a qualification?


And remember that whatever solution is proposed has to actually be viable for a LE agency in 2015. Any solution is going to have to be defensible in the litigious world LE agencies work in.


What I am saying is the quals need to be changed to reflect reality, not target shooting. Many of the course of fire are still based on the Police PPC, which is anything but "Practical".

First thing to change is the targets. CokeBottles don't shoot at people. BGs don't look like HUGE BLACK B27 targets with scoring rings.

As to the specifics of the new qualification course, I think every agency needs to figure out what their officers are most likely to get into and base the distances involved into the course of fire. If an agency has had 20 gunfights in its history and every one has been at close range, 10 yards and under, there is no possible reason to have over half the course of fire 15 yards and beyond. The last agency I worked for had to modify its course of fire per Police Standards and Training mandate that 15 of their 36 round course of fire was at 15+ yards. So many people failed the new course of fire they had to drop the passing score to the state minimum vs. their higher than minimum standard on their old course of fire.

As to being sued...you can be sued for anything.

"But that's not an apples to apples comparison. To say Officer#1 hit with 50% of his shots from a .44magnum and Officer#2 hit with 50% of his shots from a 9mm......DOES NOT mean that those officers would have each had 50% hits with a different gun.

Officer#1 may have hit with 80% of his shots if he had switched to a 9mm and Officer#2 may have hit with 20% of his shots if he switched to a .44magnum."

But you don't know that do you... You can say that the 9mm shooter had lower qualification scores when using the .44 or the .44 shooter had higher scores, but until both of them get into a real world shooting over a period of time no one knows. That is why I asked my original question about REAL WORLD shootings involving Glock 9mms and .40s. Those numbers are out there...no one wants to see them however.

Bob


If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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Originally Posted by RJM
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux

But that's not an apples to apples comparison. To say Officer#1 hit with 50% of his shots from a .44magnum and Officer#2 hit with 50% of his shots from a 9mm......DOES NOT mean that those officers would have each had 50% hits with a different gun.

Officer#1 may have hit with 80% of his shots if he had switched to a 9mm and Officer#2 may have hit with 20% of his shots if he switched to a .44magnum.


But you don't know that do you...
Bob


No. That's why I said "may have".

Originally Posted by RJM
That is why I asked my original question about REAL WORLD shootings involving Glock 9mms and .40s. Those numbers are out there...no one wants to see them however.


I'd love to see numbers on apples-to-apples comparisons.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Didn't the FBI have the 10mm cartridge developed because the 9mm was inadequate? Miami shoot-out?

Also, if you're so inexperienced as a handgun shooter, that the biggest round you can effectively handle is a 9mm, you have no business using a hand gun for defense purposes. It doesn't take that much training to become proficient with any semi-auto pistol.

And if you need 17 rounds of ammo, because 14 or 15 isn't enough to get the job done, you're really not proficient enough to use a handgun for self defense either.

Last edited by TroutAndSteelhead; 08/28/15.
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Awesome!!!!


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Originally Posted by TroutAndSteelhead
Didn't the FBI have the 10mm cartridge developed because the 9mm was inadequate? Miami shoot-out?

Also, if you're so inexperienced as a handgun shooter, that the biggest round you can effectively handle is a 9mm, you have no business using a hand gun for defense purposes. It doesn't take that much training to become proficient with any semi-auto pistol.

And if you need 17 rounds of ammo, because 14 or 15 isn't enough to get the job done, you're really not proficient enough to use a handgun for self defense either.


No the 10mm was already developed when the tests were done. The FBI adopted the 10mm with 180 grain bullets at 1,000 fps, which led to S&W developing the 40 S&W or 10mm short. The 40 pushes the 180 @ 1,000 fps same as the down loaded 10mm but the 40 needs about 35,000 psi to get there. The higher pressure is why the 40 S&W is hard on the pistols it is chambered in.



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Boys I have seen a pile of Glock 22's & 23's used by different agencies over the years, along with a number of personally owned ones that were shot a lot. I've never seen one break. I've been a Glock armorer for six years and it's like being the Maytag repairman.

Now I'll grant you that the cartridge generates more recoil impulse than most nines, but rounds like the 9BPLE can't be far behind it. Frankly I think this "40 is hard on guns" mantra was just more smoke & mirrors used by the FBI to rationalize a service cartridge change, they had already decided to make.

It ain't like they've never done this before, LOL.

Last edited by SargeMO; 08/29/15.

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Well, the main thing I've garnered from this thread is that the case definitely ain't closed. wink



Plus, from now on I'm carrying a belt fed weapon and screw the inconvenience of where I have to store that belt in my pants...


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Originally Posted by TroutAndSteelhead
Didn't the FBI have the 10mm cartridge developed because the 9mm was inadequate? Miami shoot-out?

Also, if you're so inexperienced as a handgun shooter, that the biggest round you can effectively handle is a 9mm, you have no business using a hand gun for defense purposes. It doesn't take that much training to become proficient with any semi-auto pistol.

And if you need 17 rounds of ammo, because 14 or 15 isn't enough to get the job done, you're really not proficient enough to use a handgun for self defense either.


I hope all your future posts are as spot-on as this one.

Awesome.



Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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I can bet you one thing for sure, if someone is shooting at you with a rife , the 9mm, 40, or 45 handgun is going to feel small in your hands.


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Yawn, would someone wind flave up, please.

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Originally Posted by GunGeek
That's a damn good point.

I used to work with our local SWAT team as the medic, so I've shot with and trained with a lot of cops; they generally shoot for chit...even the SWAT guys (they were better with their MP5's). 16 years on the street as a medic, I've treated a few dozen guys shot by cops, some by the entry team I was assigned to. Our city cops carried Sig 226's in 9mm. The County guys carried a variety of guns, most were .40's and 9's, with a spattering of .45's.

Actual hits on humans, I never noticed much of a difference. (admittedly this is VERY anecdotal evidence). Both departments were FIRM subscribers to the truism that there is absolutely no additional paperwork for additional rounds; and just shot the chit out of the bad guys. With one exception, all the other LE shot patients I've had were shot AT LEAST 7 times. That's hits, and the number of misses in my town were surprisingly low.

Kinda funny, I could wax their arses all day long at the range, but when it got real, suddenly those guys could all shoot...I never could reconcile that after seeing their training, but it just was.


JFC, let's add another chapter to the Gibson Chronicles.

I expect one day I'll log on and find you giving advice on the Gladius, after years of working with a Roman Legion.



Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by HawkI


Odd, all I ever really hear is "this one fits my hand"


Can't relate.




Dave


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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….other than insuring that the price and availability of 9mm ammo will probably be better than any other centerfire cartridge for the foreseeable future, I'm having a hard time seeing what difference any of this makes to us in the real world.


The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
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