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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by BarryC
Putin and Hillary are great examples of living by Atheist values.


Hillary was raised Methodist. She was a member of the Senate Prayer group, and regularly attends Foundry United Methodist Church in Washington.

Vladimir Putin is a Russian Orthodox Christian.

That pair belongs to you, not the Atheist.

Antelope, none of those things make either of them a Christian.


Who are you to say what does or does not constitute a Christian. If anything your are just making my point how most Christians think that all other Christians who are not exactly like them are going to hell.

Instead of working to improve their own, once again, a Christian is just denying their own.

I'm beginning to think the "true Scotsman Fallacy" is the Christian favorite.


Well, at least you don't use religion to judge others. whistle

I mean that'd make you a hypocrite wouldn't it? confused

Everybody knows it's only those who are religious who do such things, atheism is not a religion, therefore you haven't done it.

...and I thought I had you "in" as us judgmental "with" religious folk.

Guess you're out after all.

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by SCRooster
Originally Posted by BFD
Originally Posted by BarryC
Putin and Hillary are great examples of living by Atheist values.


And then you have the Timothy McVeighs and Terry Nichols of the world.


... and ISIS, Al Qaeda, Jim Jones, Saul Alinsky, Lenin, Marx, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Attila, et al.

What's your point?

You're going to cite The Crusades next I suppose?

Historically speaking, who has been perpetrated more mass genocide on this planet than any others ... I mean if we're talking sheer numbers?

Religious people ... or non religious people?

And what were the first steps to those non-religious people, those non-believers, the atheists ... what were their first steps undertaken before the mass genocides were perpetrated upon the people?


As I mentioned before, Hitler was a Catholic, Stalin was a seminary student and head of the Russian Orthodox Church. Hirohito was worshiped as a god in Japan. The Rwanda Genocide was the work of Catholics. The Kosovo genocide was done by Orthodox Serbs. The 1915-1923 Armenian, massacre, and the Assyrian and Greek massacres were carried out by Muslims, All of your central African genocides were committed by religious people of one flavor or another, either Christian of Muslim. Technically all Marxist are supposed to be atheist, but does not Marxism itself resemble a religion with people still pilgrimaging to worship at the tomb of Lennin?

If you want good people to do bad things, that takes religion.


So, you want to lump in all religions and attribute their sins to christianity?
I thought there was a difference in christians and mosldms.

At least now i know why you dont like christians. You dont even know what they are. Christians are those who believe in Christ and fail at times in resisting sin, but they dont live in it.

There are a lot of folks like hilkary and pelosi who claim to be christians, but no Christian lives a life rejecting His word AS.

Ive never until now heard anyone stupid enough to call Hitler or Stalin or Lenin a Christian. They and hillary live their lives rejecting His commands.

I didnt know you were disingenuous enough to paint us whith those who SAY they were a catholic or Studied some denomination.

Why didnt you throw in Charles Manson as a christian? He went to a church wedding once.

Last edited by eyeball; 08/28/15.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.

If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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AS posted:


You quoted from the book of John, as if that was somehow supposed to impress me.


Yep, as I thought, you either failed to comprehend or are choosing to avoid the issue.

TF


The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”

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Originally Posted by efw
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by efw
Ummm... Re-Read your post and then tell me you're not making an argument which puts you as an atheist 'in' (open minded and free of discriminatory bias) and religious folk 'out'.

Creation of in & out groups is a people thing sir; not religious.

Of course I constantly discriminate against green lights by driving right by them, vs red which I stop & stare at.


Ps- you do know that one of the most murdereous ideologies of the 20th century (Communism) was decidedly atheistic?


Stalin was Russian Orthodox.

Do not conflate communism with atheism. By definition, all communist are supposed to be atheist, but not all atheist are communist. In addition, as I've mentioned before, it's possible to make a good case that Marxism is a religion, as are other cults of personality.


Do not conflate being baptized into a church with being a Christian. There are many baptized atheists, Stalin among them. The system of Communism is avowed in its atheism. Seems more honest to say that your original assertion is a generalization based upon your observations of history than to redefine historic facts to suit?


Once again you are just denying your own. Stalin was the actual head of the Russian Orthodox church, the pseudo-Pope of the Russian Orthodox, yet you claim he was not Christian. What's next, are you going to start telling me various Popes were/are not Christian?

Perhaps I should ask this another way. Are Catholics Christian? What about Mormons, and Jehovah Witnesses, and 7th day Adventist, are they Christian? If a Christian Sect choose a different Sabbath then you do, are they no longer Christian? How about the Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalians with their gay and female priests? How about Anglicans, Pentecostals, Assembly of God, Calvinist, the Coptics, that various Eastern Orthodox, the Charismatics, the Lutherans, Presbyterians, Congregationalist, Anabaptist and the various Reform Churches?

Which of these do you not Christian enough for you?


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by curdog4570
Originally Posted by krp
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by krp
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper

I love the outdoors and all it has to offer. However, when I enjoy the outdoors, or examine the night sky through a spotting scope, EVERYTHING I see can be explained by natural means without the need to invoke a creator. In general, this argument, depending on how it is made, falls under one of two fallacies, either the Argument from Ignorance, or the Argument from personal Incredulity.

Our world is amazing, wonderful and complex, but we can explain it all without invoking a creator.



Ironic and logical fallacy.

Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Please read my earlier post in the Jesus Picture thread regarding the True Scotsman Fallacy. It seems to be a Christian favorite.


Projectionism.

Which is only a difference of opinion.

Kent


If I committed a logical fallacy, please name the specific fallacy, and explain where I am wrong.


Explain the moment of life, it's inception and existence. Use facts and evidence that you possess, I'm glad there is finally someone who can explain it all.

Kent


Your post is likely to be "overlooked",Kent.


or dissembled...

Kent

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Again ignoring the circularity of your assertions.

Religious folk out for judgmentalism, atheists in for non judgementalism.

While you judge Christians.

Here we go around and round...

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When an atheist called him a “moron” for believing in God, Dr. Ben Carson responded with one brilliant line that put the atheist in his place.

“I believe I came from God, and you believe you came from a monkey,” he told the individual, “and you’ve convinced me you’re right.”


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.

If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Originally Posted by eyeball
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by SCRooster
Originally Posted by BFD
Originally Posted by BarryC
Putin and Hillary are great examples of living by Atheist values.


And then you have the Timothy McVeighs and Terry Nichols of the world.


... and ISIS, Al Qaeda, Jim Jones, Saul Alinsky, Lenin, Marx, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Attila, et al.

What's your point?

You're going to cite The Crusades next I suppose?

Historically speaking, who has been perpetrated more mass genocide on this planet than any others ... I mean if we're talking sheer numbers?

Religious people ... or non religious people?

And what were the first steps to those non-religious people, those non-believers, the atheists ... what were their first steps undertaken before the mass genocides were perpetrated upon the people?


As I mentioned before, Hitler was a Catholic, Stalin was a seminary student and head of the Russian Orthodox Church. Hirohito was worshiped as a god in Japan. The Rwanda Genocide was the work of Catholics. The Kosovo genocide was done by Orthodox Serbs. The 1915-1923 Armenian, massacre, and the Assyrian and Greek massacres were carried out by Muslims, All of your central African genocides were committed by religious people of one flavor or another, either Christian of Muslim. Technically all Marxist are supposed to be atheist, but does not Marxism itself resemble a religion with people still pilgrimaging to worship at the tomb of Lennin?

If you want good people to do bad things, that takes religion.


So, you want to lump in all religions and attribute their sins to christianity?
I thought there was a difference in christians and mosldms.

At least now i know why you dont like christians. You dont even know what they are. Christians are those who believe in Christ and fail at times in resisting sin, but they dont live in it.

There are a lot of folks like hilkary and pelosi who claim to be christians, but no Christian lives a life rejecting His word AS.

Ive never until now heard anyone stupid enough to call Hitler or Stalin or Lenin a Christian. They and hillary live their lives rejecting His commands.

I didnt know you were disingenuous enough to paint us whith those who SAY they were a catholic or Studied some denomination.

Why didnt you throw in Charles Manson as a christian? He went to a church wedding once.


Christian
noun
1.a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.
noun
1.one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ

Just because you want to deny the Christians you do not like, that does not prevent a person from self identifying as a Christian. You attempt to deny these individuals because you do not want to admit there are issues within you religion.

If you don't think Hitler and Stalin were Christians, you need to go pick up a history book and learn something.

As for Lenin, I never said anything about his religion past Marxism, but now that you ask, he was Baptized Russian Orthodox.

As for Charles Mason, his "religion" if you can even call it that, was a strange combination of Satanism, Christianity, and Scientology. I"m not aware of him ever being Baptized, confirmed, or regularly attending a Christian Church. I think it would be a stretch to attempt to place the Christian label on him.

As for my feelings toward Christians, I do not dislike Christians, what I do not like is when bad or mistaken idea's cause good people to do bad things.

If you had been paying attention, you would have notices I differentiate between pragmatic Christians who primarily live in the real work and suffer and inflict few if any ills as a result of their religion, and those whom it causes to act bat Schit Crazy (I think that's the proper technical term) or those who it causes to engage in actions and beliefs that reduce the well being of others, i.e. those who cause real harm as a result of their religion.

But of course, you would of had to be paying attention, which I doubt you were.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by eyeball

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When an atheist called him a “moron” for believing in God, Dr. Ben Carson responded with one brilliant line that put the atheist in his place.

“I believe I came from God, and you believe you came from a monkey,” he told the individual, “and you’ve convinced me you’re right.”


Except we did not descend from Monkeys, Monkey's and us descended from a common ancestor.

And that story was originally credited to Ronald Reagan 30 years ago.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Originally Posted by efw
Again ignoring the circularity of your assertions.

Religious folk out for judgmentalism, atheists in for non judgementalism.

While you judge Christians.

Here we go around and round...


Who's judging. I'm not the one claiming people who think differently them me will we tormented forever, or people who think different them me should forfeit their rights.

I've judged some arguments to be fallacious, and some idea's to be potentially harmful. I've identifies certain types of Christianity that I consider not to be an issue, but I have not rendered a negative judgement on any specific individuals. In this instance, the nuance escaped you.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by efw
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by efw
Ummm... Re-Read your post and then tell me you're not making an argument which puts you as an atheist 'in' (open minded and free of discriminatory bias) and religious folk 'out'.

Creation of in & out groups is a people thing sir; not religious.

Of course I constantly discriminate against green lights by driving right by them, vs red which I stop & stare at.


Ps- you do know that one of the most murdereous ideologies of the 20th century (Communism) was decidedly atheistic?


Stalin was Russian Orthodox.

Do not conflate communism with atheism. By definition, all communist are supposed to be atheist, but not all atheist are communist. In addition, as I've mentioned before, it's possible to make a good case that Marxism is a religion, as are other cults of personality.


Do not conflate being baptized into a church with being a Christian. There are many baptized atheists, Stalin among them. The system of Communism is avowed in its atheism. Seems more honest to say that your original assertion is a generalization based upon your observations of history than to redefine historic facts to suit?


Once again you are just denying your own. Stalin was the actual head of the Russian Orthodox church, the pseudo-Pope of the Russian Orthodox, yet you claim he was not Christian. What's next, are you going to start telling me various Popes were/are not Christian?

Perhaps I should ask this another way. Are Catholics Christian? What about Mormons, and Jehovah Witnesses, and 7th day Adventist, are they Christian? If a Christian Sect choose a different Sabbath then you do, are they no longer Christian? How about the Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalians with their gay and female priests? How about Anglicans, Pentecostals, Assembly of God, Calvinist, the Coptics, that various Eastern Orthodox, the Charismatics, the Lutherans, Presbyterians, Congregationalist, Anabaptist and the various Reform Churches?

Which of these do you not Christian enough for you?





AS,

You may want to consider that not all who say they are born of God are truly that. I have met Catholics who described themselves as born again. I have met some in evangelical denominations that later admitted they were not born of God; ie "born again"

I may call myself a retired police chief but that does not make me one. I would be "false," as was Judas. It seems to me that the other disciples did not recognize Judas for what he was. Jesus however did. Jesus saw his heart.

You seem to choose other ways to define what a "Christian" is but in fact, Jesus is the one who either 'knows you' or not. That will be the final judgment of "who is a Christian" or not.


TF





btw... I do not "know" but I suspect that Hitler was a "Christian" like Judas "was."


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Originally Posted by efw
Again ignoring the circularity of your assertions.

Religious folk out for judgmentalism, atheists in for non judgementalism.

While you judge Christians.

Here we go around and round...


When someone comes out as an Atheist, who is it that terminated the relationships, the Christian, or the Atheist?


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by efw
Again ignoring the circularity of your assertions.

Religious folk out for judgmentalism, atheists in for non judgementalism.

While you judge Christians.

Here we go around and round...


When someone comes out as an Atheist, who is it that terminated the relationships, the Christian, or the Atheist?


I can only speak for myself, but in my experience it was neither. YMMV

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exchristian atheists crack me up.

Kent

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Stalin attended seminary but became an avowed atheist.

Communism is an atheistic ideology.

I am not judging Stalin as non-Christian; he proclaimed himself as such.

Communism caused a great deal of the bloodshed of the 20th Century.

Therefore Atheistic ideology has been used in the same way as religious ideology.

Period; your obfuscation cannot disprove but only distract from these facts.

Atheism cannot claim moral superiority to any other system of belief. Period.

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by efw
Again ignoring the circularity of your assertions.

Religious folk out for judgmentalism, atheists in for non judgementalism.

While you judge Christians.

Here we go around and round...


When someone comes out as an Atheist, who is it that terminated the relationships, the Christian, or the Atheist?


Nothing to do with my assertion.

You said that atheism doesn't divide people into "in" and "out" groups like religion. That in and of itself is an "in" and "out" division of atheism vs religion, disproving itself.

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Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by efw
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by efw
Ummm... Re-Read your post and then tell me you're not making an argument which puts you as an atheist 'in' (open minded and free of discriminatory bias) and religious folk 'out'.

Creation of in & out groups is a people thing sir; not religious.

Of course I constantly discriminate against green lights by driving right by them, vs red which I stop & stare at.


Ps- you do know that one of the most murdereous ideologies of the 20th century (Communism) was decidedly atheistic?


Stalin was Russian Orthodox.

Do not conflate communism with atheism. By definition, all communist are supposed to be atheist, but not all atheist are communist. In addition, as I've mentioned before, it's possible to make a good case that Marxism is a religion, as are other cults of personality.


Do not conflate being baptized into a church with being a Christian. There are many baptized atheists, Stalin among them. The system of Communism is avowed in its atheism. Seems more honest to say that your original assertion is a generalization based upon your observations of history than to redefine historic facts to suit?


Once again you are just denying your own. Stalin was the actual head of the Russian Orthodox church, the pseudo-Pope of the Russian Orthodox, yet you claim he was not Christian. What's next, are you going to start telling me various Popes were/are not Christian?

Perhaps I should ask this another way. Are Catholics Christian? What about Mormons, and Jehovah Witnesses, and 7th day Adventist, are they Christian? If a Christian Sect choose a different Sabbath then you do, are they no longer Christian? How about the Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalians with their gay and female priests? How about Anglicans, Pentecostals, Assembly of God, Calvinist, the Coptics, that various Eastern Orthodox, the Charismatics, the Lutherans, Presbyterians, Congregationalist, Anabaptist and the various Reform Churches?

Which of these do you not Christian enough for you?





AS,

You may want to consider that not all who say they are born of God are truly that. I have met Catholics who described themselves as born again. I have met some in evangelical denominations that later admitted they were not born of God; ie "born again"

I may call myself a retired police chief but that does not make me one. I would be "false," as was Judas. It seems to me that the other disciples did not recognize Judas for what he was. Jesus however did. Jesus saw his heart.

You seem to choose other ways to define what a "Christian" is but in fact, Jesus is the one who either 'knows you' or not. That will be the final judgment of "who is a Christian" or not.


TF

btw... I do not "know" but I suspect that Hitler was a "Christian" like Judas "was."


Let's deal with your silly strawman. Lets say for a moment you really were a Police Chief. Now there's another individual who wore a police uniform for 40 years, and was the head of a police department for 20 of those 40 years. It's discovered that this Chief was corrupt. Are you now going to say, "he's not a real police Chief"? Or would it be more honest for you to admit there are issues within the Police service and work to correct them.

In some ways your semantics go back to the OP's original question about the honesty of Christians as it relates to apologetics.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by antlers
Not seein' much difference between some fundies who try to force their beliefs on others, and some atheists who try to force their beliefs on others.


The only "force" I'm using is the force of reason.



And when your reasoning fails in one discussion, you quit that one and start up another one.

Or set up a straw man by mis-stating another man's statement.

I'm gonna join Kent and withdraw from what has become a boring exercise.


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The truth, well said.


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.

If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Originally Posted by efw
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by efw
Again ignoring the circularity of your assertions.

Religious folk out for judgmentalism, atheists in for non judgementalism.

While you judge Christians.

Here we go around and round...


When someone comes out as an Atheist, who is it that terminated the relationships, the Christian, or the Atheist?


Nothing to do with my assertion.

You said that atheism doesn't divide people into "in" and "out" groups like religion. That in and of itself is an "in" and "out" division of atheism vs religion, disproving itself.


In and of itself, atheism doesn't separate people into in, and out groups. Atheism is a position on a single proposition, does a god or gods exist, nothing more.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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