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If a cartridge / bullet combination fails to penetrate deeply enough from any angle needed to hit the vitails then it failed. If the bullet reaches the heart and the advasary continues on, instead of instant incapacitation that is simply the difference from one to another and no fault of the cartridge load combination, because it did the damage. This applies to rifle, shotgun and handgun.



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So a Keith SWC in the heart trumps a WFN in the guts?


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I believe he mentioned vitals...though he spelled it "vitails." The guts are vital, but are not normally associated with the "vitals" hunters normally shoot for...or adversaries either.


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Because of it variable nature, the heart is unpredictable. If full of blood, it may virtually explode when hit by a bullet, while if empty of blood, the only damage showing can be a hole the diameter of the bullet as it passes through the muscle tissue. If you hit the heart, all parties have done their job.

I would agree that a bullet that fails to penetrate to the vitals has failed, my sad experience with the Sierra BTHP 85 grain .243" and 90 grain .257" bullets would confirm that. In some circumstances, when shooting a trophy grade non-dangerous game animal, any shot is better than no shot, even if the shot is unlikely to kill, only wound and slow the animal so that the hunter can make a follow up killing shot. I'll leave the question of ethics for others to answer, but few hunters are going to pass on a great trophy, even if the shot opportunity presented is marginal.

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Originally Posted by Dan_Chamberlain
I believe he mentioned vitals...though he spelled it "vitails." The guts are vital, but are not normally associated with the "vitals" hunters normally shoot for...or adversaries either.


I believe it was a JOKE from a previous thread.


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Originally Posted by jwp475


If a cartridge / bullet combination fails to penetrate deeply enough from any angle needed to hit the vitails then it failed. If the bullet reaches the heart and the advasary continues on, instead of instant incapacitation that is simply the difference from one to another and no fault of the cartridge load combination, because it did the damage. This applies to rifle, shotgun and handgun.


I basically agree.

But 'more than enough' gun, applied well and liberally, tends to make this a rare occurrence.


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Originally Posted by 260Remguy
In some circumstances, when shooting a trophy grade non-dangerous game animal, any shot is better than no shot, even if the shot is unlikely to kill, only wound and slow the animal so that the hunter can make a follow up killing shot. I'll leave the question of ethics for others to answer, but few hunters are going to pass on a great trophy, even if the shot opportunity presented is marginal.


Just for clarification a gut shot or lower leg is an acceptable shot for a trophy animal? How about a non trophy, non dangerous game animal? Should I wait for a good solid kill zone shot or do the same rules apply? confused

I anxiously await your answer.

(we really need a sarcasm smiley)


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I really think he was talking about taking a less than optimal shot, not a silly shot to the leg. I think that he merits the benefit of the doubt there.


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Originally Posted by jwp475


If a cartridge / bullet combination fails to penetrate deeply enough from any angle needed to hit the vitails then it failed. If the bullet reaches the heart and the advasary continues on, instead of instant incapacitation that is simply the difference from one to another and no fault of the cartridge load combination, because it did the damage. This applies to rifle, shotgun and handgun.


Works for me.


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While I would take a sub-optimal shot at a trophy animal, but not on a non-trophy animal, you're free to do whatever you want to do.

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Not many cartridge/bullet combinations work well for the "Texas Heart Shot" and if that is an option then you the hunter needs more gun. Keith always advocated gun/cartridge/bullet combinations that would get the job done from any angle.

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Originally Posted by 260Remguy
While I would take a sub-optimal shot at a trophy animal, but not on a non-trophy animal, you're free to do whatever you want to do.


Thank you for the clarification. It speaks volumes.


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Originally Posted by mart
Originally Posted by 260Remguy
While I would take a sub-optimal shot at a trophy animal, but not on a non-trophy animal, you're free to do whatever you want to do.


Thank you for the clarification. It speaks volumes.


If the cartridge/ bullet, load combination can reach the vitals from the angle chosen or break down and anchor the advasary then the shot is not sub-optimal.



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Originally Posted by mart
Originally Posted by 260Remguy
While I would take a sub-optimal shot at a trophy animal, but not on a non-trophy animal, you're free to do whatever you want to do.


Thank you for the clarification. It speaks volumes.


All living creatures eventually die and do the circle of life thing, some die naturally, some not so naturally. While I prefer to wait for an optimal shot to present itself and make a clean, one shot, kill, trophies worthy of being mounted are few and far between, so exceptions to policy must be considered.

Or so it seems to me.

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Thank you for the further clarification. As I said, it speaks volumes.


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You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by 260Remguy
Originally Posted by mart
Originally Posted by 260Remguy
While I would take a sub-optimal shot at a trophy animal, but not on a non-trophy animal, you're free to do whatever you want to do.


Thank you for the clarification. It speaks volumes.


All living creatures eventually die and do the circle of life thing, some die naturally, some not so naturally. While I prefer to wait for an optimal shot to present itself and make a clean, one shot, kill, trophies worthy of being mounted are few and far between, so exceptions to policy must be considered.

Or so it seems to me.

Wow, what a fugging douchebag . I'm glad a dick measuring contests mean more to you than ethics

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This thread is about what constitutes a cartridge, bullet load combination failure. Not about any ethics, shot you will or will not take hunting. This thread about self defense and hunting bullet, cartridge load combination failures and nothing else.



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Ethics are relative. Besides you're not hunting with me, so why do you care?

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Now I know how all those rotten dead bucks I find in my woods got there.

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