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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,825 |
jimmyp,
30mm tubes are passe. My new Leupold VX-6 4-24X came with a 34mm tube and a 52mm objective. And even it is falling behind the pack. I saw one the other day with a 40mm objective lense. Talk about a Hubble....
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,049
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,049 |
Tom,
The only two real advantages of 30mm scope tubes is they're somewhat stronger than 1" tubes, everything else being equal, and allow for more adjustment range, which became important when turret-twisting became important.
There is even an exception to that, however. For many years Swarovski insisted on putting bigger lenses inside their 30mm scopes, resulting in no more adjustment range than comparable 1" scopes. The bigger lenses do have relatively minor optical advantages, but still don't increase exit pupil diameter because (again) that's determined by objective lens diameter and magnification.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
For your purposes, I'd try and find a Zeiss Conquest 3.5-10x50 with a #4 reticle. This model will even suffice for hog hunting when there is decent moonlight and won't break the bank, either. But they are not being made anymore, and Zeiss doesn't even offer the #4 as an option for some odd reason -- not even on a custom basis.
The two keys for a scope like this -- aside from the obvious of good glass and coatings -- are magnification and the ability to resolve detail under poor lighting conditions. This will take you where you need to go as far as deer are concerned.
It's another ballgame entirely for hunting by moonlight, though. You can have a "bright" 50mm Tasco, but I can assure you that under minimal moonlight, you are not going to be able to differentiate between head or tail of a dark-colored hog at 150 yards.
And while it may be no "brighter" than that Tasco, a Zeiss Diavari Victory 2.5-10x50/#4 will allow you to make that same shot with relative ease. Up until recently, I had two of those (one is finding a new home with a 24HR member in Louisiana!). They are the best I have ever tried, and while I certainly have not tried all of the high-dollar offerings, I know that this model works as intended and under the worst of lighting conditions.
Coming close to that performance is a Swarovski PV 2.5-10x56L/#4. The Z3s and Z5s (same glass, different internals) work OK for good moonlight but not when the conditions are tough.
For strong moonlight, a Zeiss Conquest, Swaro AV & Z3/Z5, Nikon Monarch, B&L 3000/Bushnell 3200 (and 4000/4200), Burris Signature & Euro and newer Leupolds from the VX2 on up along with others (given proper reticle) in that same class will do fine -- and 40mm works OK as long as the range is reasonable. But a larger objective will allow a higher power setting, which in turn allows you to see more detail for those longer shots.
But when the lighting is compromised by cloud cover or other factors, a MeoStar 4-12x40, MeoStar 3-10x50, MeoPro 4-12x50, Kahles Helia CL 3-10x50, the Diavari Victory and Swarovski PV 2.5-10x56 -- all with their respective #4s (4-a in Kahles) -- are what have worked for me. The MeoPro 4-12x50 makes the cut but doesn't quite resolve the detail as well as the others. But it WILL allow you to make shots where lesser scopes will fail you.
Two last things: One...the FFP of the Zeiss and Swaro mentioned above are definite bonuses in these conditions. And lastly: if you don't focus the reticle to your eyes, you will "lose" it in poor light as it will seem to fade away much moreso than a sharply-focused reticle.
This is really excellent information; well written,instructional, and obvious Bobby has a lot of experience with these low light scopes. Even I understood it. Thanks for a great post on the subject. Makes me wish I had not passed on that 50mm Zeiss.   Actually, sorta glad you did...  And, +1 for Bobby's post. DF DF I shoulda made myself clear...I know where there's ANOTHER one....but I did not say that. 
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 |
Tom,
The only two real advantages of 30mm scope tubes is they're somewhat stronger than 1" tubes, everything else being equal, and allow for more adjustment range, which became important when turret-twisting became important.
There is even an exception to that, however. For many years Swarovski insisted on putting bigger lenses inside their 30mm scopes, resulting in no more adjustment range than comparable 1" scopes. The bigger lenses do have relatively minor optical advantages, but still don't increase exit pupil diameter because (again) that's determined by objective lens diameter and magnification. Thanks as always JB, you can always cut thru the chaff to the wheat succinctly. It makes perfect sense...
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,015
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,015 |
For your purposes, I'd try and find a Zeiss Conquest 3.5-10x50 with a #4 reticle. This model will even suffice for hog hunting when there is decent moonlight and won't break the bank, either. But they are not being made anymore, and Zeiss doesn't even offer the #4 as an option for some odd reason -- not even on a custom basis.
The two keys for a scope like this -- aside from the obvious of good glass and coatings -- are magnification and the ability to resolve detail under poor lighting conditions. This will take you where you need to go as far as deer are concerned.
It's another ballgame entirely for hunting by moonlight, though. You can have a "bright" 50mm Tasco, but I can assure you that under minimal moonlight, you are not going to be able to differentiate between head or tail of a dark-colored hog at 150 yards.
And while it may be no "brighter" than that Tasco, a Zeiss Diavari Victory 2.5-10x50/#4 will allow you to make that same shot with relative ease. Up until recently, I had two of those (one is finding a new home with a 24HR member in Louisiana!). They are the best I have ever tried, and while I certainly have not tried all of the high-dollar offerings, I know that this model works as intended and under the worst of lighting conditions.
Coming close to that performance is a Swarovski PV 2.5-10x56L/#4. The Z3s and Z5s (same glass, different internals) work OK for good moonlight but not when the conditions are tough.
For strong moonlight, a Zeiss Conquest, Swaro AV & Z3/Z5, Nikon Monarch, B&L 3000/Bushnell 3200 (and 4000/4200), Burris Signature & Euro and newer Leupolds from the VX2 on up along with others (given proper reticle) in that same class will do fine -- and 40mm works OK as long as the range is reasonable. But a larger objective will allow a higher power setting, which in turn allows you to see more detail for those longer shots.
But when the lighting is compromised by cloud cover or other factors, a MeoStar 4-12x40, MeoStar 3-10x50, MeoPro 4-12x50, Kahles Helia CL 3-10x50, the Diavari Victory and Swarovski PV 2.5-10x56 -- all with their respective #4s (4-a in Kahles) -- are what have worked for me. The MeoPro 4-12x50 makes the cut but doesn't quite resolve the detail as well as the others. But it WILL allow you to make shots where lesser scopes will fail you.
Two last things: One...the FFP of the Zeiss and Swaro mentioned above are definite bonuses in these conditions. And lastly: if you don't focus the reticle to your eyes, you will "lose" it in poor light as it will seem to fade away much moreso than a sharply-focused reticle.
This is really excellent information; well written,instructional, and obvious Bobby has a lot of experience with these low light scopes. Even I understood it. Thanks for a great post on the subject. Makes me wish I had not passed on that 50mm Zeiss. Actually, sorta glad you did... And, +1 for Bobby's post. DF DF I shoulda made myself clear...I know where there's ANOTHER one....but I did not say that. I was thinking maybe I had snatched this one from under your nose, caught you napping...  But, doing something like that just wouldn't be right... DF
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 312
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 312 |
Just get a Zeiss Victory HT in the power range you want and nothing will make you happier as far as resolution, contrast and brightness. As far as cost, cry once, but enjoy the finest optics for every hunting season to come that will put a big smile on your face every time you look through it.
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,015
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,015 |
Does anyone know how the Zeiss Victory stacks up against
other Alpha Euros, like the Z6, etc.?
DF
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,229
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,229 |
From what I understand, when you take the optics of the Z6, Diavari, Victory HT, S&B, Meopta R2.......the only noticeable difference is the brand stamped on the tube.
Fosteology is pretty well versed on this super high end scope thing.....
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,015
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,015 |
I still like my VX-6 2-12x40. The duplex is about perfect. Glass may be a click behind the $2-3K Alpha Euros, but close enough for me.
If I was hunting at night, I'd get a dedicated night scope or burn some serious candle power.
DF
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
Does anyone know how the Zeiss Victory stacks up against
other Alpha Euros, like the Z6, etc.?
DF DF I have owned a few of these...at the top they vary in minor ways but most all those have what I call the POP! factor.Most of the variation seems to be in color differences.Swaro glass seems very bright and contrasts well, to my eyes. My pal has Z6; I presently have S&B. Both have lots of POP! Ditto for Kahles and the 1" 50mm Kahles is one of the nicest 1" scopes I have peeped through. All have very sharp resolution.Z3 is a notch down. I have never owned Meopta unless owning a Zeiss Conquest counts for that. This thread may make me buy that Zeiss 50mm like yours since I do more stand hunting than I used to and all there is to do in stands is wait,and fiddle and peep through optics, discerning tiny (but sometimes real) differences and bitching about optics until something to shoot shows up. I am glad I didn't have to hunt that way my whole life because I'd have gone nuts and given up hunting. 
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,229
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,229 |
I'm with you DF. The VX6 is waaaay good enough, and can hang with anything I've seen. More to a great scope than pure optics anyway, IMO. I've never seen an easier to use scope.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,015
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,015 |
Does anyone know how the Zeiss Victory stacks up against
other Alpha Euros, like the Z6, etc.?
DF ...I do more stand hunting than I used to and all there is to do in stands is wait,and fiddle and peep through optics, discerning tiny (but sometimes real) differences and bitching about optics until something to shoot shows up. I am glad I didn't have to hunt that way my whole life because I'd have gone nuts and given up hunting. Yep, sounds familiar. I do a lot of that kinda hunting myself... DF
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,580
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,580 |
Does anyone know how the Zeiss Victory stacks up against
other Alpha Euros, like the Z6, etc.?
DF I have both, the Victory with a German 4 and the Z with their standard plex (which is a bit thin for my taste) and save for the 4 reticle, there is really no difference. The Z is also a little lighter, then again it has a smaller Objective.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,825
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,825 |
there is no use in getting a 50mm scope if it's not coupled w/excellent glass...just throwing money away. powdr Absolutely !
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 |
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,207
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,207 |
A full moon is the best thing for shooting at last legal light! I have a million candle power spotlight that says different!!!
Last edited by Huntz; 08/28/15.
Its all right to be white!!
Stupidity left unattended will run rampant
Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
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Posts: 9,611
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,611 |
I have the 3-12x42 Schmidt&Bender Klassic. It's to me the best all round scope a guy could own. I've had the 50mm's but w/having to mount them high and the quality of glass not being what the S&B is I will just stick w/the 42mm. I have said earlier that my scope at dark, meaning no light, I can see images up to 100yds but only up to about 7 power. Any power more than that and I get flare...I don't know why. I can kill a deer as late as I want as long as there is a scintilla of light left. powdr
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Posts: 4,065
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,065 |
Having read through the whole eight pages of this, and understand the principals of light transmission.
Practical experience, my main pursuit is coyotes and I have no restrictions as to legal hunting times. If there is enough light to see the coyote coming into the call with my eyes I can kill him with my scoped rifle. It makes little difference if it is a 1-4x20, 1.5-6x40 or 2,5-10x40, having a reticle that doesn't get lost in the background is the biggest factor for me. A dim red dot, Heavy duplex or German #4 work best for me in the low light for me.
I would likely lose/miss more called coyotes with a 6x42 or 8x56 due to lack of FOV than from lack of transmitted light in my scopes of choice..
Last edited by erich; 08/29/15.
After the first shot the rest are just noise.
Make mine a Minaska
Heaven has walls and rules, H-ll has open borders
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,709
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,709 |
Anybody read the article on 24 hour campfire home page? All about scopes, and even I acould understand it.
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 655
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 655 |
I'll keep it simple guys, resolution is 1, most all coatings are good these days so don't get lost in the this coating that coating. More glass means better resolution most of the time, ex a 6X24 will usually resolve Brett than a 3x12 at the same magnification. On the flip side more lenses also means less light transmission but it's moot. Larger objectives lets you use power, a 56 will allow a much greater mag range and offer better resolution, usually than a 50mm and so on. Here's the biggie, the big advantage of most euro scopes have been their large angular fov, the bigger this is the better you see period. Don't worry about feet or meters look at the angular fov, in bins anything over 60 is considered wide angle. Doesn't matter how good the glass or coatings are if it has the view of a pvc pipe your not gonna see a darn thing late, or not compared to a larger angular fov with similar glass. My 6x24 hensoldt is my favorite followed by a 4x16x56 and then a 3x12x56. I have an incredible 3x9x42 Zeiss vmv that 9 outta 10 will say smokes a vx3 50mm most of the time. It's not necessarily the glass near as much as the fov. Last example is all the Zeiss scopes I named have the same angular fov. The Leupold is much smaller. Hope this helps.
Cheers.
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