Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles The 7.62x51 in a semi...

So what's the consensus,..is the 308 too much for anything of lighter construction than the Springfield and FNFAL?
I'd really like too add a semi to the stable but I don't like the idea of some cheap HK knock off or PTR plastic lower beater.
I'm getting thee feeling that the M1A is the only real answer.

Had an M1A about fifteen years ago. Sold it. Nice trigger, reliable, accurate, cools as hell, but just too forward heavy for me. For that reason, I couldn't warm up to it. It's a heavy chunk of steel and wood. Maybe the SOCOM version would feel better, though.

DPMS had their "Gen II" model, which was supposed to be a good deal lighter than standard AR-10's. The buzz on them is they don't work so well. If they get the bugs worked out then maybe that would be an option.

Right now I have an inch pattern FN, i.e. an L1A1.

I like it but would like to trade if for a DPMS Gen 2 after they work out the bugs.

Depends on what you want it for and what you demand of it.

I"ve shot both the AR version and a LOT of the M14... I have a soft spot for the 14, but the AR is a better deal, BUT I can't comment on longevity because I have not shot one until I've replaced a couple of barrels, so not sure how they hold out.

What are you looking for in a semi auto 7.62 ? The M1A will run a long time w/o cleaning. I've got a Squad Scout model that has run about 400 rds. w/o any more cleaning than the removal of the factory bore oil. While it has shot a few groups under MOA, for three rounds, most of the better loads run 1.3 to almost 2 MOA for four rounds. None of my loads use any match bullets, BTW.
The only M1A models really setup for scope use are the latest Loaded models with the fully adjustable stocks, unless you would be happy with a scout scope on the Socom or Squad Scout.
Some of them, like the Loaded version with the fully adjustable stock are reported to run 11.2 lbs. w/o a scope.
My Squad Scout runs 8 lbs. 11 ozs. with the Leupold VX2, 1.5-4X Scout Scope.
If you insist on something lighter, on an AR style design that will readily take a conventional scope, I hear alot of good things about the S&W M&P 10.
While it can argued that the AR style 7.62's can't run as long and hard as the M1A's or the FNFAL, they do alot better than Remington 750's or the other sporter style semi auto .308's.
I talked to alot of people about the Smith M&P 10 before I bought my M1A Scout. I bought the Springfield basically because it handles better for me than an AR style rifle would.
That and I don't need a more powerful scope than the 1.5-4X Scout for what intend to hunt with it.
But both rifles have a rep of running alot longer or harder than the Remington 750 or the Browning BAR. They work under dusty, dirty conditions where the above don't.
Mine doesn't change zero when hot. I understand the Smith M&P 10 doesn't either. Both of them don't recoil off target much thanks to their designs.
The M1A's come with really good triggers and excellent, well protected iron sights. The Smith M&P needs a quality after market trigger to make me happy and has to have irons added.
So, do you really need/want a rifle that can run hot for hundreds of rounds under bad conditions ? Or will something not quite to that level of performance make you happy.
BTW, the M1A Loaded, National Match and Super Match rifles have the reputation of not being 100% reliable when shooting some mil surp ball ammo. Something else to consider. E

400 rounds withotu cleaning?

I know folks that don't clean their ARs other than once a year... probably 5000 plus rounds...

every time I get ready to sell my Ruger SR-762 I shoot it and decide not to sell it, its about a MOA for 3-5 shots. I have a 1-4 on it now in an aeroprecision mount, I had tried the MP10 and DPMS G2 first..

Good shootin'!

It depends on how much recoil you are willing to tolerate. Personally, I'm willing to tolerate quite a bit of recoil from a gun like a Sharps or Model 70, I guess because you're not shooting them as much or as fast. With a semi-auto paramilitary type rifle, I want something with pretty low recoil. The only thing that fills the bill are AR-10 knock offs. IMO the others recoil too much. My DPMS 1st gen. doesn't recoil much at all, but it's pretty heavy.

Ringworm,

What do you think is lacking with the AR-10 / SR-25 rifles? They are the most accurate semi auto platform as well as being very reliable. I won't say "most reliable" due to there being so many cheap ones on the market that give the .308 AR platform a bad reputation.

If you put the same money into a .308 AR that you would a good M14, I'll take the accuracy, versatility, and weight savings of the AR every time.

Did the SR-762 out shoot the later 2?

I have a LMT in 7.62x51 and it is stone cold reliable as well as shooting inside 1 MOA with just about anything I feed it. The only downside is the weight. With a MK6 1-6 Leopold it weighs 12 pounds with a 20 round loaded magazine in place.

What I was talking about was the rifle still shoots as well as it did when it was brand new. As far as reliability goes, the M1A's have a rep for going further and longer than the AR direct gas rifles in .308.
The other thing is that M1A's will run when dry. AR's in .308 don't run well at all when shot w/o lubrication.
All of which may mean little to a guy wanting a military style .308. There are many to pick from. I think it would be more helpful to describe the strenths and weakness of whatever we are familar with. With that information, he can make an informed decision. E

The guys not cleaning rifles for 5000ish rounds are high masters, and still winning matches, and even writing books about it....

I have more than a few ARs for hunting, most all of them get fired once at game.... recoil isn't that big of an issue. I can shoot a lot of shots out of a big bolt gun too...

I have one too, the weight is a training issue.
Accuracy and functionally is pure pleasure.

The MP 10 is a good gun 1.5-2moa for three shots which really proves nothing, the Gen2 was similar except it tore brass up and they gave me my money back. On a good day with the ruger it does much better for 4-5 shots. Its got an Aeroprecision/SWFA 1-4 on it now and its stock terrible trigger. It is 11 pounds with 10 rounds in the gun. So far the only jam I have had was popped primers from a bolt gun load I was feeding it. I buy a box of WW 150 grain powerpoints every time I go to the store, kind of like stocking up on Jiffy Corn Bread mix, you never know when your going to need it.

to add I thought the piston action would make it less accurate, it does not seem to do so and the function is very positive.

I'm curious as to how this is a training issue?
I'm just a little guy at 6' 235 lbs., in pretty good shape (I run quite a bit), lift heavy stuff all day at work and am still faster with a lighter gun than a heavy one.

Everyone will use a lighter gun better once they get off the bench. Curious of your rational.

Training issue=


If you want and or need what a 7.62 gas gun offers then you work with the weight and deal with it. There are only so many of them that work well enough to be more than a play thing, and none of them are lightweight.


There is a reason that those who use guns as a job that have both 5.56 and 7.62, overwhelming choose compact 5.56's. For most that juice isn't worth the squeeze.






As far as the original question- no, the M1A or FAL isn't the way to go. LMT, KAC, Larue and FN SCAR Heavy if you need it to work.

the Ruger 308 is not a KAC gun nor would I recommend it for that use, at $1600 it works for me and I fire about 20-20 rounds through it a month but the 11 pounds makes it easy to bench, and it is accurate with a chromed bore. NOT a tree stand gun, it does fine in a ground blind within sight distance of the truck

I just built a cool 6.8SPC to shoot all the 120SST and 110Vmax ammo at Academy sports. It is with 3.5-10x50 scope, LT-104, 10 rounds, carry sling 8 pounds 3 ounce. The 85 grain TSX with 30.5 grains of H322 is said to be "ok" for shooting stuff.

Then there is the 110 TTSX which might go 2500 or so..

I was just wondering if there was some Jedi trick to even out the weight.

I tried an AR-10 carbine for a while and found that if I need a 308, it'll be in a bolt gun. Autos that I've been around will not handle the pressure that a bolt can and if I need a 308, it's due to distance which negates the need for quick handling.

Of course there are instances where an LMT 308 would be fun.

Isn't it about time for that pig man to show up?

It should also be pointed out, a 16" .308 is an acquired taste, especially if it has a muzzle brake. Although they usually will clear the benches next to you, at the range.

I'd eventually like to add a .308 which takes Pmags, but so far I know of no reliable and lightweight .308 semi-auto

you are spot on, I wear pro ears gold when I hunt with the 16 inch Ruger which has a flash hider no brake.

What's your criteria for reliable and lightweight?

Just for information sake, Gun Tests magazine ran a side by side test of the Ruger SR-762 and the Springfield Armory M1A Socom 16 in their Sept. 2014 edition.
The list price on the Socom was $1905 while the Ruger was $2195.
They both shot groups well. The Ruger averaged from 1.2 ins. to 1.6 ins., while the Socom's ran 1.3 ins. to 1.6 ins. These were averages of five shot groups with the same ammo for each.
Ruger weighed in at 8.6 lbs. and the Socom weighed 8.4 lbs.
The Ruger's trigger broke at 10.5 lbs. and was not consistant. The Socom's broke at 5.75 lbs. and did not need any improvement according to the testers. E

Of the two Armalites I have, one has never choked. The other needed a replacement extractor spring set, which was no big deal and easily fixed, once I figured out what was wrong. If I had to pick a criteria out of the air, I'd say 500 rounds without jams or cleaning, and I think both would do it. The lighter of the two is around 9½ lbs empty with its 18" Rainier barrel and Vortex hider, less optic.

A lightweight .308? 8 lbs or less, empty, w/o optics, with a free float tube or quad rail and at least a mid-weight 16" barrel?

[quote=tex_
I'd eventually like to add a .308 which takes Pmags, but so far I know of no reliable and lightweight .308 semi-auto [/quote]

My LMT308MWS came with one KAC magazine. I checked into additional KAC magazines and decided to give the P-Mag a try. Bottom line they work great. The current P-Mags work in the LMT, KAC (SR-25), and...

I know you said lightweight, which my LMT isn't - but it works just fine with P-Mags.

Craig

Actually RE the weight, we NEVER shot off the bench unless load testing and final testing was out of the sling.

For us we wanted heavy, it was MUCH easier to shoot highpower courses that way, and for NTIT I wanted as heavy as I could get, so you could get 40 or so hits in 50 seconds at 600 with a mag change included.

Light guns jump around and won't settle worth a flip for me.

But I think that it really depends on what type of "game" hyou are shooting.

I had a light bolt gun barreled, and its been sitting around in the safe, havent even bedded the stock yet, and I've never found the want to finish and hunt it, its there in case I get a goat or sheep hunt ever... which I doubt.. but just in case...

I have seen the Springfield that high. The ruger not more than $1700, the trigger in the ruger does need replacement with RRA match trigger.

It can be done, I have one (8lb reliable 308). Too bad DPMS can't pull their head out of the sand and deisgn a reliable G2 .308.

Hello, I just saw this. Back in the day, late 80's, I owned a HK91 with the PSG1 trigger. With that + bipod + raised cheek stock + mount & scope, it went 16-18 lbs (pending mag capacity). Shot MOA or slightly less, but man was it heavy. Only deer I ever shot with it was a small-ish doe, and I was not sure I wanted to drag out less, the deer or the gun! Being that I am a towering 5'6", it always felt like I was trying to hold a 16 pound pistol to me, the stock was just a bit too long to be practical for me.

When DSA started out, I had one of thier FN FAL kits I built up on IMBEL receiver , and had one of those goofy British tri-lux sights on it. Once I go away from that and went to a scope and mount accuracy got better, but again, that 16 + pounds or so (admittedly included bipod) and crunchy trigger made it less than MOA, more like 2-3 inches, and all the stuff regarding my short arms still applied. Neat battle rifle though, ergonomically MUCH better than the HK

I had a 'bush' model M1A and that was one sweeeeet gun, but scope mounting put the scope very high off the standard stock, almost a chin weld was required. Nice gun with a scout scope on it. Ergonomics were not quite equal the FN but the accuracy was much better, and it handled very well, the apex of John Garand's design to be sure. 2MOA or slightly less? Yep, I recall it as being that. M1A owners hate to admit it, but they have the same issue with the op rod that Garand owners have, you can damage the gun with certain powders due to the torque forces on the op rod caused by powders that do not burn efficiently in the design. not really a weakness....unless we have a major issue with powder shortages. Really more something to be aware of, all told. I sold the gun only to fund emergency surgery for the wifey, else I would still have it (still have the Wifey too, FWIW)

I briefly owned a 308 AK and it was pie-plate accurate and in a sporter conversion, so it went away about as fast as I got it.

So now, I own and very much like my Gen 1 DPMS LR-308. Shoot whatever powder/load in it and it is fine. mine is easily capable of 1 MOA at 200 YDS, and that is with factory match ammo. I really love it, despite the weight of about 11-12 pounds loaded up. The adjustable stock one 'notch' in allows for my shorter arms. the Magpul mags are cheap and super reliable. Free float barrel and the vertical front stubby grip are just right. Once I got a Gieselee trigger in it, all was good. I am not at home or I would post a pic of a doe I took as she trotted away at an angle, tough shot with a scope on 3.5x, and it has accounted for my farthest shot to date, 225 yds sitting, elbows on knees, one shot kill on a doe. Gun worked so well it made it simple. So yes, I like the design. Only thing I can fault in my particular gun is the 16" barrel. At the time of purchase there was an 18" and a 16" available same price, and my bud got there first and got the 18. If I can ever get my kid thru college I plant to go to a 18 or 20 inch barrel, weight be darned. that 16 is LOUD, and requires muffs, not plugs.

So that is my .02 on a thread that it appears the OP started to generate responses (and possibly arguments), which at least in my case, it has

i still don’t know much about my gun. i’d have to go to the dpms website to tell you the specs. pretty sure i cleaned it sometime this year though.

comes as no surprise i don’t know what it weighs. with the stock, scope, can and full mag i can tell you it’s a handful. as pathetic as this sounds… oh what i would give to be 50 again lol.

I put together a PA-10 and got it down to that weight by reprofiling the barrel. That's with an 18" barrel plus flash hider, 15" MI free float rail, and Magpul furniture. It goes 9 lb scoped with an empty Pmag, right at 8 lb or a hair under without optics. The PA-10 receivers are lighter than the DPMS equivalents.

Faxon sells an 18" 308 barrel that is about the same weight as mine.

Don't know what your criteria is for reliable though. My PA-10 hasn't malfunctioned once, but some small parts needed extra fitting out of the box. Don't know if they've changed that yet. Once parts were fitted and got the gas adjusted it has been 100%.

Get a fal.

that one looks light, I had one of those Springfield guns imported from Brazil, it had a built in bi-pod and was the heaviest gun I have ever owned,accurate however even with the iron sights. I did have a dust cover with rails on it which I viewed to be about as useful as a code of ethics book at the Democratic National Convention.

I'm picking my Gen II Hunter up from UPS tonight. It's back from repairs at Ahlman's. I'm hoping they know more about guns than DPMS does, which wouldn't be hard.

The current issue of Recoil magazine has an article about taking a DPMS Gen 2 Recon down to under 7 pounds. And it was reliable, etc.
They also had a Gen 2 Hunter that they quit working on because of apparent pressure issues which were probably issues with size of hole for firing pin in the bolt.

They did comment that the Gen 2 is a neat design but needs some QC attention.

They took weight from the wrong areas and left a gas system designed for .223's. As "innovative" as the GII is I am amazed that some areas on the design were totally neglected.

the hunter just needs a barrel with a smaller than 3/8's inch gas hole in it.

My 16" heavy barrel LR308 is running 1.2-1.5 Moa for 10rds with minimal workup so far. The 155 scenar with R15 is showing promise but i havent worked it too much yet.


Weighs 10.5lbs with optics but i didnt build it to carry too far.

Wasn't bought or equipped, with the intentions of carrying very far.

And how it shoots.

Ran this one 2x at thunder ranch.

Works great. 600 rounds in three days the first time, 750 the second time.



Ran this one at a Long range rifle course (3 days, 300 rounds).



Shoots pretty good. This is at 600 yards (sighted in for 500) and guessed elevation to 600. 10 knot wind from 3 O'Clock.

175gr Black Hills Match.



All this "DPMS don't work" is BS whining by guys who were embarrassed by the DPMS.

My DPMS held up, an LMT failed at ThunderRanch.

BMT

looks like 2 groups....

DPMS gave me my money back on the Gen2 hunter.

DPMS used to not be all the rage and for cheap reasons... though I could make everything I had from them work back in the 90s anyway... FWIW

Well, first off I don't tend to glass semi's.
I've owned, in no particular order, M1A NM, Bush, HK91, DSA FAL.
After mulling it over I came to a couple conclusions.
If I found a purpose for one of them, I'd still own one of them.
If I need a bullet heavier than a 62gr, I'll grab a bolt gun.
If I run into an issue in which I need semiautomatic fire, I quite possibly would be better off getting out of Dodge than fight.

The purpose to own such guns, is cuz they're fun to shoot.
We all can fantasize about Zombies, and the end of the world stuff, and prepare for it. But, will one ever really see these things happen ?
I hope not. Would one last very long, probably not.
The purpose to have these guns, in my opinion, is they're fun.
Once owned, why sell ?
They cost nothing to sit in a safe. They only eat when you feed them. So I have, and I keep.
Common bolt guns..... bought and some sold. They are boring.

Enjoy the freedoms we have, before we lose them.

bolt guns ain't boring... they make into some really good long range fun...

One of mine is good to 1800 yards so far...