24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859
X
xxclaro Offline OP
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
X
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859
The bighorn sheep outfitter I worked for years ago used to always say that. "Speed kills", he'd say, and send me off to buy 150gr whatever's(long as it had a plastic tip) for his Blaser .300 Win. We had lots of grizzly in the area and he'd had more than one encounter, but when I asked him if he wouldn't prefer a heavier bullet he said the 150 was all he needed. Mind you he was a pretty cool customer so maybe it was, but he could usually talk the bear into going about its business anyway. But I digress.

Couple days ago,reading another thread somewhere in the bowels of the forum, someone mentioned a site by an Aussie or Kiwi who has done what appears to be a rather extensive amount of killing/dissection to determine what works best or kills fastest. He seems to believe that an impact velocity of 2600fps or faster kills significantly faster than bullets that impact below that velocity thresh hold. Above .35 cal and the speed drops to 2200 for fast kills. I don't have nearly enough experience to verify these findings, but I can say that the deer shot with the .270 and 25-06 tended to drop sooner than the ones shot with the .356. Could be just a coincidence, as the sample size isn't that large.

Since many here have vastly more experience in this area, I thought I'd pose the question to you all. If a bullet is constructed stoutly enough to penetrate to the vitals, doesn't a faster bullet tend to produce faster kills and more DRT's? Is this why small fast calibers seem to kill out of propertion to their size? Of course a slower heavier bullet kills just fine,we've all seen that and its not in question. The question remains though, does a significantly faster bullet generally equal a significantly faster kill?


BP-B2

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,339
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,339
Originally Posted by xxclaro
Since many here have vastly more experience in this area, I thought I'd pose the question to you all. If a bullet is constructed stoutly enough to penetrate to the vitals, doesn't a faster bullet tend to produce faster kills and more DRT's? Is this why small fast calibers seem to kill out of propertion to their size? Of course a slower heavier bullet kills just fine,we've all seen that and its not in question. The question remains though, does a significantly faster bullet generally equal a significantly faster kill?



Not a gunwriter, and I don't have as much experience as some here, but IME a fast bullet generally equals a faster kill. That said, I quit worrying about such things. A good bullet in the right spot= dead stuff.

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 6,761
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 6,761
Way too many variables to even start to debate....my exp has been that 30/06 and 7 mm08 and 257 Roberts kill about the same given the same distance. 243 not so good. Lots of tracking and blood shot meat...but then again I shot a few with 220 swift it was like a lightning bolt....po ackley wrote about this in his books, testing on feral donkeys..he liked the high vol...

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,112
D
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
D
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,112
I can't answer the question, but FWIW, for cup and core bullets the length of the wound channel is fairly constant over the range of impact speeds from 2100 to about 2750 FPS. Below that, the channel is actually longer because the bullet fails to open. Above that, the channel is shorter because the bullet begins to break up and shed more weight than is optimum. Premium bullets extend those limits. Partitions, for example, open at 1700-1800 FPS and hang together up to warp 9.5.

So for a given bullet, if speed does not lengthen the wound channel, it probably doesn't do all that much to increase killing power. And nobody seems to have a definitive formula for killing power, anyway.

But speed does get you more range, and that's often very important.

Now if you want to compare the 220 Swift to the 9.3x67, that's a more complicated discussion.

DISCLAIMER: As I've said on here many times, I'm not much of a hunter. My interest is in the technical side of the hobby.

Last edited by denton; 08/31/15.

Be not weary in well doing.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670
Yes - BUT --------

Speed does kill.

It's a whole lot more complicated. We're considering both internal and external ballistics. The one missing element in your query is shot placement. That's paramount.

If you gut shoot an animal speed doesn't mean much. Same with a rump or leg shot.

The explosive effect of fast, lighter bullets certainly does produce a seriously effective "hydraulic shock" that is proven dramatic". This is not only seen in ballistics gel but also in animals. It shocks the system big time. But doesn't necessarily have to be the primary cause of demise.

The way ballistics works it that certain powders produce certain speeds, feet per second, and certain pressures. Faster, lighter bullets travel further with less 'drop" so with long range shooting - past 300 yards, they come into their own. And I speak too about ultra distances, snipers - 1,000 yards, a mile.

As I related recently our ancestors exterminated over 42 million bison is just a few decades shooting primitive rifles using black powder at various ranges including 600 yards.

Too 12 gauge rifled slugs travelling at 1,200 - 1,500 fps are devastating at closer ranges.

As I also related recently, an exhaustive study of various bullet expansions, different types, different constructions, lead, clad, solids, copper, showed essentially expansions that couldn't amount to a hill of beans as far as the photos were concerned. They all looked basically the SAME - to me.

Another aspect is energy dump. Within the animal or pass through, clean exit on the other side. Barnes loading manual shows a study wherein exit wounds are significantly more effective and cause shorter "runs" after being struck. They bleed more and leave blood trails better too for tracking.

Consider also that a caliber, say .25, .27, .30 bullet that expands 50% can be reproduced diameter/dimensionally by simply shooting a larger caliber rifle 50% bigger than the base case.

Way back when I was a young guy I moose hunted with a .25-06. I spined it and dropped it in its tracks. Many years, and rifles, later I moose hunted with a .338 Winchester Magnum. I spined the moose and dropped it in its tracks. Both shots were in the range of about 200 yards. I had zeroed my scope at 200 so it was dead on at that range. The .25-06 was a light bullet around 100 grains or so. The .338 Mag was 2 1/2 to 3 times heavier.

So the answers to you questions are that one size DOES NOT fit all. It depends on the hunter, his personal beliefs, philosophy, range or distances he/she is/are shooting.

Generally, however, up to 300 yards, the heavier bullets, at slower speeds *( necessitated by the consideration of maxing out on the guns safe pressure ratings ) are more effective than lighter, faster bullets because they carry more energy and oomph.

The Weatherby's are an example of really fast as are numerous proprietary and custom brands. They are certainly more effective and better killers. But they burn out barrels faster.

A .30-06 is completely effective for killing an elephant with a head shot and it has been done.

A bow and arrow is/are completely effective in dispatching all sorts of animals with energy and velocity that is but a shadow of a good rifle.

So the bottom line is that you can kill game with just about anything including a .22 short rim fire *( Which I have done on the farm with pigs ).


Last edited by William_E_Tibbe; 08/31/15.
IC B2

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Originally Posted by denton


But speed does get you more range, and that's often very important..


Do I have your permission to 'steal' this and quote you?

That defines my position and requirement for rifle/cartridges for hunting.

Thnx

Jerry
3100 guy


jwall- *** 3100 guy***

A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap

Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,340
C
cdb Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
C
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,340
I read a South African website quite a bit and those guys prefer heavier bullets at slower velocities than we do here. Of course they hunt larger game as a rule.


Don't roll those bloodshot eyes at me.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
B
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
B
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Sure...speed kills.Like Denton said, it gives us range.I'll add it also expands our bullets on impact.

So long as we still get the two things we need to kill BG animals cleanly and consistantly at any distance...penetration and expansion.

We don't have to do anything more complex than shoot a bunch of woodchucks with a common 22 rimfire;then do it again with a 220 Swift to see the effect of the extra velocity.

It still boils down to bullet construction, though;and impact velocity. Years ago we used to shoot a lot of woodchucks with Sierra 52 and 53 gr match bullets. Jackets were hard but brittle. Not intended for shooting animals.

Out to 300 yards or so results were dramatic...ghastly,jagged wounds and sometimes animals almost blown in two. But beyond that, as velocity drained the magic was gone. They often drilled through. Chucks got back to their holes and made tracks.We stopped using them. Common soft points killed better beyond 300 yards.

John "Pondoro" Taylor wrote years ago of the peculiar "shocking effect" of the 375 H&H,due to its high velocity (for those times).IIRC he noted it occurred at velocities of 2500-2600 fps and up.He was talking Cape Buffalo,and large game....not deer.

Complex subject. Impact velocity, shot placement,bullet construction and expansion characteristics,size of animal, etc all come into play IMHO. Most modern cartridges all seem to do well out to 300 yards or so....it's beyond that it seems that higher impact velocities rule the roost.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,811
J
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,811


Quote
Speed kills. Doesn't it?



Drive 55 to stay alive!



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,273
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,273
Speed kills up to a point. Please do not confuse me with the folks that really know anything on this subject. However, I have shot a bunch of deer with a variety of rifles and nearly identical situations. What I have seen indicates that there is blessed little difference in what a 25-06, 30-06, and 35 Whelen do at comparable ranges on comparable whitetail deer, trying my best to take out both lungs and the top of the heart.

In some cases the deer run a little bit, but in nearly every case, I can stand where they were when I shot them and see toes in the air. In each case, I am getting an exit wound. All these deer have been taken with 175 yards.

The idea that speed buys distance is a good one. What else I can add is that if the bullet has enough speed to open up and you are getting an exit wound, the difference between 25-06 and 35 Whelen is largely being spent in the dirt on the far side of the animal. If I had to take a pick for which does the best job, I'd not take the 35 Whelen . Overall, the best job seems to be done by the 30-06 using either 150 or 165 grainers.



Genesis 9:2-4 Ministries Lighthearted Confessions of a Cervid Serial Killer
IC B3

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,884
J
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
J
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,884
I think modern bullet construction has made bullet diameter and weight less important and tipped the balance in favor of ligher bullets going faster. When smokeless powder was 1st developed,it was not uncommon for smaller faster bullets to over expand and not reach vitals.


Most people don't really want the truth.

They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,481
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,481
It absolutely does in my opinion. Just talking deer, I've shot them with a 375 H&H down to a 250 Savage and nothing kills them faster than a 257 Weatherby with 100 grain Hornadys at factory specs. I've never had one take a step when shot with one and I try to shoot all my deer on the shoulder.

Randy Brooks told me personally years ago the 416 seemed to kill better with the 350gr TSX than with the 400 when he was testing them and he could only surmise it was the difference in velocity. Lastly, Ross Seyfried in his book tells where the most impressive buffalo killer he's ever used was the 416 Weatherby @2700 fps.


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,756
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,756
Bob summed it up very well.

Bullet construction plays a big role. The whole speed thing only works if the bullets expand. Shoot a deer with a 30-06 loaded with a 150 grain SST going 2900 FPS and shoot another with a 150 grain M2 ball going 2900 FPS and compare the results. Obviously the SST is going to do a lot more damage and kill faster even though both rounds are going the same speed.

Animal size and construction. With deer, the size of their chest cavity is roughly that of a volley ball. The typical center fire with expanding bullets can destroy the deer's chest cavity with one shot.....kind of like what happens when you shoot a watermelon. Is there a shoulder fired rifle and ammo combo that can accomplish the same thing with a buffalo?

Then there is of course shot placement. If you destroy or disrupt the nervous system or not.

Last edited by RJY66; 08/31/15.

"Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants". --- William Penn

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,143
4
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
4
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,143
Originally Posted by jwp475


Quote
Speed kills. Doesn't it?



Drive 55 to stay alive!


If you're going to do that in Georgia its best you stay in the right hand lane to stay alive!

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 351
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 351
His sisters got her feet on the dash. He cant see to merge back right for the color of sis panties


NRA Life Member
SAF Life Memner
CPL Life Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,112
D
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
D
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,112
Quote
Do I have your permission to 'steal' this and quote you?


Sure.

Plus, let me rephrase and expand some of my first post on the thread.

If your bullet impacts at sufficient speed, it will open fully. As you increase impact speed, the length of the wound channel will not increase. It remains pretty constant until you reach the point that the bullet begins to fail. At that point, penetration begins to decrease.

Sadly, some of the best information we have on the effect of bullets was gathered by physicians treating battle wounds.

One thing that is understood is that the energy dump in tissue results in two different effects. The tissue directly in front of the bullet is crushed and torn. The tissue around this wound channel is elastically stretched. Slow, heavy bullets do more crushing and tearing. Fast, light bullets do more elastic stretching ("bloodshot"). It's the crushing and tearing that creates the wound channel.

Hydrostatic shock is an oxymoron. Hydro means water, and static means standing still. Hydrostatics is the study of water or other liquids that are not in motion.

Now maybe there is some form of hydraulic shock at work when a bullet impacts. Maybe that kills game faster. I don't claim to know. But please don't call it hydrostatic shock.


Be not weary in well doing.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,811
J
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,811
Originally Posted by jorgeI
It absolutely does in my opinion. Just talking deer, I've shot them with a 375 H&H down to a 250 Savage and nothing kills them faster than a 257 Weatherby with 100 grain Hornadys at factory specs. I've never had one take a step when shot with one and I try to shoot all my deer on the shoulder.

Randy Brooks told me personally years ago the 416 seemed to kill better with the 350gr TSX than with the 400 when he was testing them and he could only surmise it was the difference in velocity. Lastly, Ross Seyfried in his book tells where the most impressive buffalo killer he's ever used was the 416 Weatherby @2700 fps.


A stoutly constructed bullet that expands and penetrates well will add a lot more internal trauma when driven faster, no doubt.



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,594
A
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
A
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,594
Originally Posted by denton
I can't answer the question, but FWIW, for cup and core bullets the length of the wound channel is fairly constant over the range of impact speeds from 2100 to about 2750 FPS. Below that, the channel is actually longer because the bullet fails to open. Above that, the channel is shorter because the bullet begins to break up and shed more weight than is optimum. Premium bullets extend those limits. Partitions, for example, open at 1700-1800 FPS and hang together up to warp 9.5.

So for a given bullet, if speed does not lengthen the wound channel, it probably doesn't do all that much to increase killing power. And nobody seems to have a definitive formula for killing power, anyway.

But speed does get you more range, and that's often very important.

Now if you want to compare the 220 Swift to the 9.3x67, that's a more complicated discussion.

DISCLAIMER: As I've said on here many times, I'm not much of a hunter. My interest is in the technical side of the hobby.


Denton, I have to disagree with you a bit.

A faster impact will give you a wider wound channel which can result in more internal damage then a long narrow wound channel. The wider the wound channel, the better the chance for a CNS hit, which is what produced most DRT results.

A 160gr bullet leaving the barrel at 3400 can have amazing on game effects.

Last edited by antelope_sniper; 09/01/15.

You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670
Denton:

You posted:

"If your bullet impacts at sufficient speed, it will open fully. As you increase impact speed, the length of the wound channel will not increase. It remains pretty constant until you reach the point that the bullet begins to fail. At that point, penetration begins to decrease".

Sorry but I just don't understand. Something is getting lost in the interpretation.

Can/will you please elaborate ?

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 194
T
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
T
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 194
No doubt speed kills. Not sure why it is even a debate or a revelation.

But in truth, anything that pokes a whole in the vitals will kill.


------------------------------

The APE

"But resist we much...we must...and we will much...about...that...be committed." - the "Reverend" Al Sharpton
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
107 members (405joe, 338reddog, 10gaugemag, 444Matt, 16 invisible), 1,356 guests, and 669 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,588
Posts18,397,856
Members73,815
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.130s Queries: 16 (0.003s) Memory: 0.9091 MB (Peak: 1.0880 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 08:19:36 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS