I see pictures all the time with the serial number blocked out or people putting XXX at the end so as to not say it's actual serial number. Why? Are people that paranoid that the government is going to track down their guns?
I see pictures all the time with the serial number blocked out or people putting XXX at the end so as to not say it's actual serial number. Why? Are people that paranoid that the government is going to track down their guns?
No, just that people realize there are dicks in the world. Lets say I consider you a [bleep]. I see a gun you have a photo of and for fun I report a gun being stolen, here's the serial number. It gets entered into the system.
You sell the gun, gun is checked and is listed as stolen. People can do it for insurance fraud.
People can also try to sell your gun.
Lets say you post 14 pics of your NEWLY bought Smith & Wesson Model 29, along with serial number.
I lift the pictures, along with the serial number and post it on Gunbroker. Some guy sends me a check for a gun I don't own. I now 'disappear' and he's looking for me and his money.
Oh, but they have the serial number so maybe the cops can track it down.
Hey, serial number XYX was sent to Joe's Gunshop in Mooseballs, WI. Lets go there. He, Fred at Joe's Gunshop shows the gun was sold to YOU. Cops show up at door wondering why you took money for gun you never sold, something like fraud or something. Sure, you didn't do any of that, the guy that thought you a dick did.
But guess what, the problem is now in your lap.
I've never seen the serial number of a gun enhancing photos. I do know of the Gunbroker type scam happening.
If you want to post them, post them, I don't give a shiet. Just like you shouldn't give a sheit if I don't want to post pics of the serial numbers.
Nevertheless, Steelhead makes very good points; you don't need those numbers getting broadcast anymore than you'd want your driver license number posted all over.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
A commercially manufactured gun with no serial number is illegal and cannot be owned. A home made gun for self us can.
Over the years there were several reasons for not having a serial number but most date back a long time. Chinese and Iranian guns have ben found by the case ALL with the same number.
My memory is a little fuzzy about German Mauser's that apparently were being counterfeited by bandit operators.
There have been some cases on record about replicas or antiques that didn't have numbers.
It may be possible that some estate guns had missing numbers, so I heard.
But you can take this to the bank: Any gun that has the serial number missing is HOT and party to a felony. You can't sell it, you can't own it, you can't ship it.
Maybe disquieting to the crooks but the experts can retrieve filed off serial numbers by some high tech science. ___________________________________________________________
However, if we are speaking about blocking out the numbers on a photo, as opposed to removing it from the weapon, that doesn't constitute a crime unless the intent is to hoodwink someone, commit some misrepresentation or fraud.
A commercially manufactured gun with no serial number is illegal and cannot be owned.
Wrong. Really wrong. Serial numbers weren't required until the Gun Control Act of 1968 came about. Millions upon millions of firearms were manufactured before that. Some had serial numbers but most of the lower priced ones did not. They were all "grandfathered" under the act and all, even without serial numbers, are currently legal to own.
Go tell the Spartans,Travelers passing by,That here,Obedient to their laws we lie.
I'm older now but I'm still runnin' against the wind
There are a lot of little pricks that sit around a computer in their momma's basement that love to screw with people just because they can. In the last 8 years I've been the victim of identity theft twice and stolen credit card numbers twice. I'm still trying to fix the identity theft issue from 2007 where some prick in Columbus Ohio stole my social security number and had a phone turned on in my name.
What Steelhead posted is a valid problem. There are enough losers out there that will do something like that just because they're bored. There doesn't have to be any real reason behind it, it's just that they're losers and want to screw with someone that day. I've had enough of it happen to me that I don't want to risk it. It's the reason that you'll never see me post a photo of myself, my family, my vehicles license plates, or anything that can identify where I live on the internet.
A commercially manufactured gun with no serial number is illegal and cannot be owned. A home made gun for self us can.
Over the years there were several reasons for not having a serial number but most date back a long time. Chinese and Iranian guns have ben found by the case ALL with the same number.
My memory is a little fuzzy about German Mauser's that apparently were being counterfeited by bandit operators.
There have been some cases on record about replicas or antiques that didn't have numbers.
It may be possible that some estate guns had missing numbers, so I heard.
But you can take this to the bank: Any gun that has the serial number missing is HOT and party to a felony. You can't sell it, you can't own it, you can't ship it.
Maybe disquieting to the crooks but the experts can retrieve filed off serial numbers by some high tech science. ___________________________________________________________
However, if we are speaking about blocking out the numbers on a photo, as opposed to removing it from the weapon, that doesn't constitute a crime unless the intent is to hoodwink someone, commit some misrepresentation or fraud.
You have got to be about the most stupid SOB on the 'Fire. I don't believe you've ever posted anything that's remotely correct or that you read in a Field and Stream article
No, just that people realize there are dicks in the world. Lets say I consider you a [bleep]. I see a gun you have a photo of and for fun I report a gun being stolen, here's the serial number. It gets entered into the system.
You sell the gun, gun is checked and is listed as stolen. People can do it for insurance fraud.
People can also try to sell your gun.
Lets say you post 14 pics of your NEWLY bought Smith & Wesson Model 29, along with serial number.
I lift the pictures, along with the serial number and post it on Gunbroker. Some guy sends me a check for a gun I don't own. I now 'disappear' and he's looking for me and his money.
Oh, but they have the serial number so maybe the cops can track it down.
Hey, serial number XYX was sent to Joe's Gunshop in Mooseballs, WI. Lets go there. He, Fred at Joe's Gunshop shows the gun was sold to YOU. Cops show up at door wondering why you took money for gun you never sold, something like fraud or something. Sure, you didn't do any of that, the guy that thought you a dick did.
But guess what, the problem is now in your lap.
I've never seen the serial number of a gun enhancing photos. I do know of the Gunbroker type scam happening.
If you want to post them, post them, I don't give a shiet. Just like you shouldn't give a sheit if I don't want to post pics of the serial numbers.
This is precisely why I do not post the entire S/N.
Travis
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
A commercially manufactured gun with no serial number is illegal and cannot be owned.
Wrong. Really wrong. Serial numbers weren't required until the Gun Control Act of 1968 came about. Millions upon millions of firearms were manufactured before that. Some had serial numbers but most of the lower priced ones did not. They were all "grandfathered" under the act and all, even without serial numbers, are currently legal to own.
Oh dear me! You're only joking - right? You HAVE to be ----seriously!
It's really degenerated from the sublime to the absurd.
One thing that I always do is fact check. And I have the facts to back up my comments. In any event those facts are not something that I "manufacture" from mythology. They are the laws made by someone else.
Sad to say that some posters here are not capable of understanding the numerous why's, wherefores, provisos and contingencies in my post. I just didn't want to make it miles long. The "shortfalls" in my post that you highlighted were already allowed for contingently in my comments.
Notice that I am polite and respectful in my responses. I don't respond to rules violators. ___________________________________________________________
I may add that the gun laws vary widely from state to state, county by county and Town/Village locally, as well as from Law Enforcement to Law enforcement - a lot.
In addition to my owning, transporting and/or shipping guns here in Wyoming, South Dakota, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania New Jersey, New York, Missouri the USA I also owned/ transported/ shipped, *( Sold at times ) rifles and hand guns in Canadian Provinces, Venezuela, Tunisia, Senegal, Ethiopia, Liberia, Cambodia and Vietnam. I also carried some in my luggage on airplanes and through customs including France and the Netherrlands. Did it since 1956.
I don't know about other manufacturers, but Marlin made some Model 62s without serial numbers. There was a voluntary recall where, if you owned a 62 without a SN, you could send your rifle back to Marlin and they would stamp the receiver with a serial number. I've seen both varieties and have a 62 in 30 Carbine that was returned and hand-stamped with a serial number. I have the invoice from Marlin that was returned to the owner with the newly stamped rifle.
A commercially manufactured gun with no serial number is illegal and cannot be owned. ...
William_E_Tibbe-
Below is a photo of a J.C.Higgins single-shot rifle chambered for the 22LR cartridge. It was manufactured by Marlin for Sears in the late 1950s or early 1960s. I own a rifle just like the one shown. My rifle has no serial number, and close inspection reveals that it never had one. I've checked at least 20 similar rifles in gun shops and at gun shows, and none has ever had a serial number. I purchased this rifle 40 years ago from an elderly friend who resided in the same state as myself. He's been dead at least 30 years.
This is "a commercially manufactured gun with no serial number".
What do you suggest is the proper course of action for myself, because it "is illegal and cannot be owned".
Thank you. --Bob . . (image from gunsamerica archives)
I had two handguns that were brought in from overseas. I tried to register them but needed three character witnesses which I didn't have at the time. I even wrote to the County executive but wasn't able to engender more people. So I let it lay for 40 years. Couple of years ago I had the bug and necessity to transfer those to my son in a different state. By hook and crook and jawboning I was able to persuade the sheriffs department and county permit office to issue the permits. Thus I transferred/shipped them out of my state to my son who went through the drill and got them accepted and permitted in his state.
In your case don't stir sleeping dogs. Let it lay. You have a snowballs chance in hell of ever transferring title, or shipping out of state, or selling commercially such as on consignment in a gun store without a serial number. If you eventually pass it on to heirs just zip it up and keep quiet.
Get friendly with your local Law Enforcement. They are generally, predominately good guys and usually are accommodating in the matter if legitimate and makes sense.
I had two handguns that were brought in from overseas. I tried to register them but needed three character witnesses which I didn't have at the time. I even wrote to the County executive but wasn't able to engender more people. So I let it lay for 40 years. Couple of years ago I had the bug and necessity to transfer those to my son in a different state. By hook and crook and jawboning I was able to persuade the sheriffs department and county permit office to issue the permits. Thus I transferred/shipped them out of my state to my son who went through the drill and got them accepted and permitted in his state.
In your case don't stir sleeping dogs. Let it lay. You have a snowballs chance in hell of ever transferring title, or shipping out of state, or selling commercially such as on consignment in a gun store without a serial number. If you eventually pass it on to heirs just zip it up and keep quiet.
Get friendly with your local Law Enforcement. They are generally, predominately good guys and usually are accommodating in the matter if legitimate and makes sense.
This person has no earthly clue WTF he's talking about.
Travis
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
A commercially manufactured gun with no serial number is illegal and cannot be owned. A home made gun for self us can.
You really should try reading the posts you respond to before sharing your wisdom. The posts before yours were all discussing pictures of guns, where the serial number was edited out of the picture for privacy reasons. That has nothing to do with guns that don't have serial numbers.
I'm really starting to wonder if you're just a troll on this forum; posting things just to create arguments.
I had two handguns that were brought in from overseas. I tried to register them but needed three character witnesses which I didn't have at the time. I even wrote to the County executive but wasn't able to engender more people. So I let it lay for 40 years. Couple of years ago I had the bug and necessity to transfer those to my son in a different state. By hook and crook and jawboning I was able to persuade the sheriffs department and county permit office to issue the permits. Thus I transferred/shipped them out of my state to my son who went through the drill and got them accepted and permitted in his state.
In your case don't stir sleeping dogs. Let it lay. You have a snowballs chance in hell of ever transferring title, or shipping out of state, or selling commercially such as on consignment in a gun store without a serial number. If you eventually pass it on to heirs just zip it up and keep quiet.
Get friendly with your local Law Enforcement. They are generally, predominately good guys and usually are accommodating in the matter if legitimate and makes sense.
This person has no earthly clue WTF he's talking about.
Travis
Understatement of the year... It's kind of mind boggling, actually. I'd expect it from a DU troll or something.. maybe.
“The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
You take in a carton full of unregistered handguns with no serial numbers to your local Po Po and see how many you come out with.
Who the heck would I register my handguns with? And why?
“The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
I see pictures all the time with the serial number blocked out or people putting XXX at the end so as to not say it's actual serial number. Why? Are people that paranoid that the government is going to track down their guns?
Back to the original question, which is a good one...
I know of a couple of folks that have been through a world of hassle because a used gun they bought got run through the LE stolen firearm database and turned up as being stolen a couple of decades earlier. Now, I doubt anybody here would begrudge returning a firearm to somebody who it'd been stolen from - but NOBODY here would enjoy being in the crosshairs of the police until they prove they bought it from somebody else.
“The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
I had two handguns that were brought in from overseas. I tried to register them but needed three character witnesses which I didn't have at the time. I even wrote to the County executive but wasn't able to engender more people. So I let it lay for 40 years. Couple of years ago I had the bug and necessity to transfer those to my son in a different state. By hook and crook and jawboning I was able to persuade the sheriffs department and county permit office to issue the permits. Thus I transferred/shipped them out of my state to my son who went through the drill and got them accepted and permitted in his state.
In your case don't stir sleeping dogs. Let it lay. You have a snowballs chance in hell of ever transferring title, or shipping out of state, or selling commercially such as on consignment in a gun store without a serial number. If you eventually pass it on to heirs just zip it up and keep quiet.
Get friendly with your local Law Enforcement. They are generally, predominately good guys and usually are accommodating in the matter if legitimate and makes sense.
This person has no earthly clue WTF he's talking about.
Travis
You're just figgerin' THAT out?!
I took BigStick off my Ignore list and replaced him with that guy.
I had higher expectations for my fellow gun enthusiasts but instead I find a plethora of Bimbos - pseudo phony lamentably incompetent. Just disgracefully incompetent border line morons.
Fortunately the vast majority, I estimate over 90%, that post here are very experienced, very competent really Good Guys that I respect and appreciate .
That 10% of pathetic , dysfunctional, squirrels, vicious, poopy mouth, insulting aggressive, trouble maker bully's come with the baggage along with their gang bang mindless followers.
So long as we recognize these destructive elements as fool and mentally disorientated I don't propose any action.
I had higher expectations for my fellow gun enthusiasts but instead I find a plethora of Bimbos - pseudo phony lamentably incompetent. Just disgracefully incompetent border line morons.
Fortunately the vast majority, I estimate over 90%, that post here are very experienced, very competent really Good Guys that I respect and appreciate .
That 10% of pathetic , dysfunctional, squirrels, vicious, poopy mouth, insulting aggressive, trouble maker bully's come with the baggage along with their gang bang mindless followers.
So long as we recognize these destructive elements as fool and mentally disorientated I don't propose any action.
\ Just admit you were wrong, no need for the bullschitt.
I had higher expectations for my fellow gun enthusiasts but instead I find a plethora of Bimbos - pseudo phony lamentably incompetent. Just disgracefully incompetent border line morons.
Fortunately the vast majority, I estimate over 90%, that post here are very experienced, very competent really Good Guys that I respect and appreciate .
That 10% of pathetic , dysfunctional, squirrels, vicious, poopy mouth, insulting aggressive, trouble maker bully's come with the baggage along with their gang bang mindless followers.
So long as we recognize these destructive elements as fool and mentally disorientated I don't propose any action.
Mr. Tibbe. You are so far deep in wrong you just do not know it. No firearm was required to have a serial number until the 1968 gun control act. That's the FACT Jack. You have been given correct information. Many firearms prior to 1968 had no numbers including many guns under the J.C. Higgins Sears gun and those of Montgomery-Ward. Tell you what, just call your local BATFE office and ask. Get the correct answer from the horse's mouth. Paul B.
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them. MOLON LABE
But you can take this to the bank: Any gun that has the serial number missing is HOT and party to a felony. You can't sell it, you can't own it, you can't ship it.
From the ATF tracing manual:
Quote
Serial numbers are not issued by ATF. Duplication of numbers is common between manufacturers and importers and many firearms manufactured prior to 1968 were not marked with a serial number at all.
So.. somebody must be wrong. Who might that be? ATF? Or Tibbe? Hmm.
Can you explain this difference of opinion, Mr. Tibbe?
“The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
I had higher expectations for my fellow gun enthusiasts but instead I find a plethora of Bimbos - pseudo phony lamentably incompetent. Just disgracefully incompetent border line morons.
Fortunately the vast majority, I estimate over 90%, that post here are very experienced, very competent really Good Guys that I respect and appreciate .
That 10% of pathetic , dysfunctional, squirrels, vicious, poopy mouth, insulting aggressive, trouble maker bully's come with the baggage along with their gang bang mindless followers.
So long as we recognize these destructive elements as fool and mentally disorientated I don't propose any action.
You take in a carton full of unregistered handguns with no serial numbers to your local Po Po and see how many you come out with.
Why would I take an "unregistered" handgun with or without a serial number to my police department?
Travis
In an attempt to register it as some here are advocating. Wasn't directed to you specifically.
Just playing devil's advocate.
Do some of you folks register handguns with local LE in your AO? Damn......
Bring a box of old handguns with no SNs to my PD and we'll send you home and welcome you to NH where we don't register schit! Now, if the SNs have been filed off......
I think I'm [bleep], though,......I have an old .22 here with no SN. Apparently, I can't own it!
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
I see pictures all the time with the serial number blocked out or people putting XXX at the end so as to not say it's actual serial number. Why? Are people that paranoid that the government is going to track down their guns?
No, just that people realize there are dicks in the world. Lets say I consider you a [bleep]. I see a gun you have a photo of and for fun I report a gun being stolen, here's the serial number. It gets entered into the system.
You sell the gun, gun is checked and is listed as stolen. People can do it for insurance fraud.
People can also try to sell your gun.
Lets say you post 14 pics of your NEWLY bought Smith & Wesson Model 29, along with serial number.
I lift the pictures, along with the serial number and post it on Gunbroker. Some guy sends me a check for a gun I don't own. I now 'disappear' and he's looking for me and his money.
Oh, but they have the serial number so maybe the cops can track it down.
Hey, serial number XYX was sent to Joe's Gunshop in Mooseballs, WI. Lets go there. He, Fred at Joe's Gunshop shows the gun was sold to YOU. Cops show up at door wondering why you took money for gun you never sold, something like fraud or something. Sure, you didn't do any of that, the guy that thought you a dick did.
But guess what, the problem is now in your lap.
I've never seen the serial number of a gun enhancing photos. I do know of the Gunbroker type scam happening.
If you want to post them, post them, I don't give a shiet. Just like you shouldn't give a sheit if I don't want to post pics of the serial numbers.
Sounds like you've done this before . . . .
I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.
First thank you and many others for being polite and respectful.
As I have said before; Don't kill the messenger. I don't make this stuff up myself. I could bury this website with data and have the silly, loose screws wearing egg on their faces all day.
Pure and simple a gun without a serial number is ILLEGAL.
Not to digress or divert but ATF under Obama is a pathetic conglomeration of loose cannon balls on the deck. You'se Guys seem to be stuck on Federal Laws and apparently don't consider state and local.
Just take your gun without serial number to any gun shop and try to sell it. Try to ship it across state lines. Take it to a gun show and try to peddle it.
I have guns back to the late 1,800's with numbers and proofs. I'll research JC Higgins Sears without numbers and get back to you. On Monday I will be on the phone with ATF and I will give you their take on this.
One of the problems here is that some readers simply do not understand my posts. They go off half cocked and assume that some simple opposing statement is gospel and all inclusive, capturing all aspects, while reality is that it is multi faceted and complex with various conditions to contemplate to see the true picture.
I won't engage in a brawl with one particularly obnoxious and insulting name caller because he/she/it is obviously one of the low 10% that doesn't have the mental capacity to keep up. Sadly we have to write off those losers and try to be compassionate. I fail to see how my post rose to the level of being called stupid and a son of a bitch !!!! This is a clear and blatant violation of the website rules that Steel Head agreed to. I won't be asking for banning him/her/it whatever. I just don't care about such worthless chatter apparently from some debilitated nasty character that spends his/her/it's life on the internet all day long. Come to think of it I haven't seen anything constructive from - IT. Only sniping from the shadows.
I think I'm [bleep], though,......I have an old .22 here with no SN. Apparently, I can't own it!
George
I must be a hard core criminal...Ive got a 16 ga. shotgun with no serial number, and no way to ever trace it, cause it has no rifling, and Ive never registered it with the police. Perfect crime gun.
Shhhhhhhhhhh....
Don't tell anyone..
Especially Tibbe....
Last edited by ingwe; 09/04/15.
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
The first plainly stated serial numbers were not required until the GCA1968....
Lots of guns were made before that, lots had no serial numbers, and if you transfer one through all legal means the spot on the form 4473 asking for Serial number can LEGALLY be filled in "nsn"........"no serial number"
Dig your hole a little deeper....
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
First thank you and many others for being polite and respectful.
As I have said before; Don't kill the messenger. I don't make this stuff up myself. I could bury this website with data and have the silly, loose screws wearing egg on their faces all day.
Pure and simple a gun without a serial number is ILLEGAL.
Not to digress or divert but ATF under Obama is a pathetic conglomeration of loose cannon balls on the deck. You'se Guys seem to be stuck on Federal Laws and apparently don't consider state and local.
Just take your gun without serial number to any gun shop and try to sell it. Try to ship it across state lines. Take it to a gun show and try to peddle it.
I have guns back to the late 1,800's with numbers and proofs. I'll research JC Higgins Sears without numbers and get back to you. On Monday I will be on the phone with ATF and I will give you their take on this.
One of the problems here is that some readers simply do not understand my posts.
I won't engage in a brawl with one particularly obnoxious and insulting name caller because he/she/it is obviously one of the low 10% that doesn't have the mental capacity to keep up. Sadly we have to write off those losers and try to be compassionate. I fail to see how my post rose to the level of being called stupid and a son of a bitch !!!! This is a clear and blatant violation of the website rules that Steel Head agreed to. I won't be asking for banning him/her/it whatever. I just don't care about such worthless chatter apparently from some debilitated nasty character that spends his/her/it's life on the internet all day long. Come to think of it I haven't seen anything constructive from - IT. Only sniping from the shadows.
The first plainly stated serial numbers were not required until the GCA1968....
Lots of guns were made before that, lots had no serial numbers, and if you transfer one through all legal means the spot on the form 4473 asking for Serial number can LEGALLY be filled in "nsn"........"no serial number"
Where I hell is the spot on the form that you refer to?
Maybe the Guys that own arms without serial numbers will be interested it the ATF form clause - 10 years in prison and $250,000 fine.
Do you ever read the [bleep] instructions you retard?
Question(s) 26, 27, 28, 29 and 30, Firearm(s) Description: These blocks should be completed with the firearm(s) information. Firearms manufactured after 1968 should all be marked with a serial number. Should you acquire a firearm that is not marked with a serial number; you may answer question 28with “NSN” (No Serial Number), “N/A” or “None.”
I'm pretty sure you're attempting to be helpful, but on the subject of serial numbers you need to do some catching up.
Under current laws, I'll have no difficulty transferring my J.C.Higgins rifle to any of my heirs or assigns, nor to any person who is a resident of Michigan and who I deem worthy of owning a J. C. Higgins rifle. Further I can ship it in interstate commerce via USPS, UPS, FedEx, or any other common carrier to a FFL holder.
Here is a part of the instructions for completing the ATF form 4457. For my rifle without serial-numbers, the instructions to the FFL holder are pretty plain:
Question(s) 26, 27, 28, 29 & 30, Firearm(s) Description: These blocks should be completed with the firearm(s) information. Firearms manufactured after 1968 should all be marked with a serial number. Should you acquire a firearm that is not marked with a serial number; you may answer question 28 with “NSN” (No Serial Number), “N/A” or “None.
Here's a quote from the website for which you provided a link. It's about 3/4 of the way down the page, near the photo of the Remington Nylon 66:
As for those pre-GCA guns which were manufactured without serial numbers, some are still on the market. A dealer buying or selling a non-NFA firearm made before 1968 and without a serial number need record “Made prior to 1968, no serial number” or “NSN” in the serial number space on his transaction record. Unless there is a state or local requirement, he need not apply a number or obtain a number from the police or BATFE. {image of Nylon 66}
No, Willie E. Tibbe is a retard. He was a retard 10 years ago when he had another logon name, he is a retard now. I kicked him in the nuts repeatedly back then for continually spewing FALSE information.
He hasn't changed in the least. There is nothing helpful about this POS troll, trust me.
The benefit of the Ignore feature is that it magically transforms this:
A commercially manufactured gun with no serial number is illegal and cannot be owned. A home made gun for self us can.
Over the years there were several reasons for not having a serial number but most date back a long time. Chinese and Iranian guns have ben found by the case ALL with the same number.
My memory is a little fuzzy about German Mauser's that apparently were being counterfeited by bandit operators.
There have been some cases on record about replicas or antiques that didn't have numbers.
It may be possible that some estate guns had missing numbers, so I heard.
But you can take this to the bank: Any gun that has the serial number missing is HOT and party to a felony. You can't sell it, you can't own it, you can't ship it.
Maybe disquieting to the crooks but the experts can retrieve filed off serial numbers by some high tech science. ___________________________________________________________
However, if we are speaking about blocking out the numbers on a photo, as opposed to removing it from the weapon, that doesn't constitute a crime unless the intent is to hoodwink someone, commit some misrepresentation or fraud.
Notice that I am polite and respectful in my responses. I don't respond to rules violators. ___________________________________________________________
Originally Posted by William_E_Tibbe
What a sad day for America;
I had higher expectations for my fellow gun enthusiasts but instead I find a plethora of Bimbos - pseudo phony lamentably incompetent. Just disgracefully incompetent border line morons.
Fortunately the vast majority, I estimate over 90%, that post here are very experienced, very competent really Good Guys that I respect and appreciate .
That 10% of pathetic , dysfunctional, squirrels, vicious, poopy mouth, insulting aggressive, trouble maker bully's come with the baggage along with their gang bang mindless followers.
So long as we recognize these destructive elements as fool and mentally disorientated I don't propose any action.
So one of you is "polite & respectful" , the other one of you not so much.
I see pictures all the time with the serial number blocked out or people putting XXX at the end so as to not say it's actual serial number. Why? Are people that paranoid that the government is going to track down their guns?
The s/n is personal information for the seller to maintain. You are buying the firearm based on your needs and what you consider a fair price. It is immaterial as to what the serial number is. In the event of some pertinent date or historical significance, only a partial number is needed.
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
I'm pretty sure you're attempting to be helpful, but on the subject of serial numbers you need to do some catching up.
Under current laws, I'll have no difficulty transferring my J.C.Higgins rifle to any of my heirs or assigns, nor to any person who is a resident of Michigan and who I deem worthy of owning a J. C. Higgins rifle. Further I can ship it in interstate commerce via USPS, UPS, FedEx, or any other common carrier to a FFL holder.
Here is a part of the instructions for completing the ATF form 4457. For my rifle without serial-numbers, the instructions to the FFL holder are pretty plain:
Question(s) 26, 27, 28, 29 & 30, Firearm(s) Description: These blocks should be completed with the firearm(s) information. Firearms manufactured after 1968 should all be marked with a serial number. Should you acquire a firearm that is not marked with a serial number; you may answer question 28 with “NSN” (No Serial Number), “N/A” or “None.
Here's a quote from the website for which you provided a link. It's about 3/4 of the way down the page, near the photo of the Remington Nylon 66:
As for those pre-GCA guns which were manufactured without serial numbers, some are still on the market. A dealer buying or selling a non-NFA firearm made before 1968 and without a serial number need record “Made prior to 1968, no serial number” or “NSN” in the serial number space on his transaction record. Unless there is a state or local requirement, he need not apply a number or obtain a number from the police or BATFE. {image of Nylon 66}
Good luck. --Bob
Bob: Ill give you my sons address in Ringwood New Jersey and invite you to try to ship a gun without a serial number.
FYI I shipped numerous guns to him and I know the score.
As I warned before your Guys are hung up on Federal Regs while the local regs are the gist of the matter.
I'm pretty sure you're attempting to be helpful, but on the subject of serial numbers you need to do some catching up.
Under current laws, I'll have no difficulty transferring my J.C.Higgins rifle to any of my heirs or assigns, nor to any person who is a resident of Michigan and who I deem worthy of owning a J. C. Higgins rifle. Further I can ship it in interstate commerce via USPS, UPS, FedEx, or any other common carrier to a FFL holder.
Here is a part of the instructions for completing the ATF form 4457. For my rifle without serial-numbers, the instructions to the FFL holder are pretty plain:
Question(s) 26, 27, 28, 29 & 30, Firearm(s) Description: These blocks should be completed with the firearm(s) information. Firearms manufactured after 1968 should all be marked with a serial number. Should you acquire a firearm that is not marked with a serial number; you may answer question 28 with “NSN” (No Serial Number), “N/A” or “None.
Here's a quote from the website for which you provided a link. It's about 3/4 of the way down the page, near the photo of the Remington Nylon 66:
As for those pre-GCA guns which were manufactured without serial numbers, some are still on the market. A dealer buying or selling a non-NFA firearm made before 1968 and without a serial number need record “Made prior to 1968, no serial number” or “NSN” in the serial number space on his transaction record. Unless there is a state or local requirement, he need not apply a number or obtain a number from the police or BATFE. {image of Nylon 66}
Good luck. --Bob
Bob: Ill give you my sons address in Ringwood New Jersey and invite you to try to ship a gun without a serial number.
FYI I shipped numerous guns to him and I know the score.
As I warned before your Guys are hung up on Federal Regs while the local regs are the gist of the matter.
Where did you mention 'local regs' in your first post, dickweed?
Originally Posted by William_E_Tibbe
A commercially manufactured gun with no serial number is illegal and cannot be owned. A home made gun for self us can.
Over the years there were several reasons for not having a serial number but most date back a long time. Chinese and Iranian guns have ben found by the case ALL with the same number.
My memory is a little fuzzy about German Mauser's that apparently were being counterfeited by bandit operators.
There have been some cases on record about replicas or antiques that didn't have numbers.
It may be possible that some estate guns had missing numbers, so I heard.
But you can take this to the bank: Any gun that has the serial number missing is HOT and party to a felony. You can't sell it, you can't own it, you can't ship it.
Maybe disquieting to the crooks but the experts can retrieve filed off serial numbers by some high tech science. ___________________________________________________________
However, if we are speaking about blocking out the numbers on a photo, as opposed to removing it from the weapon, that doesn't constitute a crime unless the intent is to hoodwink someone, commit some misrepresentation or fraud.
[quote=Steelhead]No, Willie E. Tibbe is a retard. He was a retard 10 years ago when he had another logon name, he is a retard now. I kicked him in the nuts repeatedly back then for continually spewing FALSE information.
He hasn't changed in the least. There is nothing helpful about this POS troll, trust me. [/quote
I have no idea as to who you are and I have NO recollection at all of your allegations.
Certainly you are aware of the website regs that forbid deliberate attacks, insults, degradations, which you violate with apparent impunity.
You have a simple choice, Knock it off or your ass will be kicked all over the ball park. FYI I'm associated with Law enforcement. Get your pocket book ready. This will take you to litigation and cost you big time for slander and defamation.
Result of which you will be banned from this site permanently.
Bottom line : Piss me off and I will mess you up like your worst nightmare,
Steelhead, can I be your "connection" to LE this time of are you gonna continue with the old dude in TX?
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
My wife and I have a couple of older German guns, one a Sauer side-by-side shotgun and one a “no-name” combination gun, both purchased from FFL dealers. Neither has a serial number and it’s really not a big deal. Removing a serial # is.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
[quote=Steelhead]No, Willie E. Tibbe is a retard. He was a retard 10 years ago when he had another logon name, he is a retard now. I kicked him in the nuts repeatedly back then for continually spewing FALSE information.
He hasn't changed in the least. There is nothing helpful about this POS troll, trust me. [/quote
I have no idea as to who you are and I have NO recollection at all of your allegations.
Certainly you are aware of the website regs that forbid deliberate attacks, insults, degradations, which you violate with apparent impunity.
You have a simple choice, Knock it off or your ass will be kicked all over the ball park. FYI I'm associated with Law enforcement. Get your pocket book ready. This will take you to litigation and cost you big time for slander and defamation.
Result of which you will be banned from this site permanently.
Bottom line : Piss me off and I will mess you up like your worst nightmare,
Has anyone every been banned from this site permanently?
Since Larry Root has been banned and returned at least a dozen times, the act of banning can't have any real meaning to a person who is determined.
[quote=Steelhead]No, Willie E. Tibbe is a retard. He was a retard 10 years ago when he had another logon name, he is a retard now. I kicked him in the nuts repeatedly back then for continually spewing FALSE information.
He hasn't changed in the least. There is nothing helpful about this POS troll, trust me. [/quote
I have no idea as to who you are and I have NO recollection at all of your allegations.
Certainly you are aware of the website regs that forbid deliberate attacks, insults, degradations, which you violate with apparent impunity.
You have a simple choice, Knock it off or your ass will be kicked all over the ball park. FYI I'm associated with Law enforcement. Get your pocket book ready. This will take you to litigation and cost you big time for slander and defamation.
Result of which you will be banned from this site permanently.
Bottom line : Piss me off and I will mess you up like your worst nightmare,
Libel. Slander is spoken.
"Piss me off and I will mess you up..." sounds like a threat....
[quote=Steelhead]No, Willie E. Tibbe is a retard. He was a retard 10 years ago when he had another logon name, he is a retard now. I kicked him in the nuts repeatedly back then for continually spewing FALSE information.
He hasn't changed in the least. There is nothing helpful about this POS troll, trust me. [/quote
I have no idea as to who you are and I have NO recollection at all of your allegations.
Certainly you are aware of the website regs that forbid deliberate attacks, insults, degradations, which you violate with apparent impunity.
You have a simple choice, Knock it off or your ass will be kicked all over the ball park. FYI I'm associated with Law enforcement. Get your pocket book ready. This will take you to litigation and cost you big time for slander and defamation.
Result of which you will be banned from this site permanently.
Bottom line : Piss me off and I will mess you up like your worst nightmare,
Yeah ace, bring it.
I'm guessing this is a different WETibbe from 2005? Does the sound of the below post sound familiar?
Originally Posted by WETIBBE
Pack up your peanut butter and jelly sandwich and apple for the teacher and toddle along little fella. It's school time.
This board is for those �regular folks� who have a serious interest in firearms and the shooting sports. We�re a pretty laid back bunch, so feel free to pull up a crate and chat. We do have a few rules, in order to maintain the integrity of the board, and assure that each Member is treated with respect. These rules are: GENERAL RULES . Stay civil. No profanity, personal attacks, or flames toward a person or group. (If you can't say it on network television, we don't want to see it on the boards). . No discussion of illegal activities (like bombings, �getting� someone, etc). . No spamming - Stay on-topic and maintain mature, constructive conversation. . Use only ONE username. Use of multiple usernames will be considered spam. . Trolling is forbidden and Trolls will be banned on sight. USERNAME RULES . All messages you post will include your "user name." This may be your real name or a "handle" (nickname or pseudonym). . If you choose to use a handle, it may not be the name of a living person or a name likely to be confused with that of a living person. . If you register using a real name other than your own, or if the user name you choose contains offensive or misleading elements, your account will be canceled and you will be banned from future participation at this site. CONDUCT RULES . Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks, threats, and crude or sexually-explicit language. . Inappropriate or offensive graphics, user names, or profile entries are not permitted. . Messages should be relatively short and to the point. Do not post lengthy replies (including replies that consist largely of quotes from an earlier message). . Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda. . Anti-Gunowners are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the beliefs & positions held by the pro-gunowners participating on the board since it it their board. CONTENT RULES . Do not post others� e-mail addresses or private e-mail sent by them unless they give you permission to do so. . Do not post copyrighted material. . Do not post material from unapproved private revelations. . Do not post personal phone numbers and addresses. . Do not post anything that can be construed as spam. . Do not post anything that can be construed as a commercial advertisement or contains any form of commercial solicitation. DISCUSSION FORUMS . Messages posted to threads should be on-topic. If you wish to discuss another topic, start a new thread. . Do not pad your post count with chatty or off-topic messages. PRIVATE MESSAGING . If you have something to say to an individual member that is not of general interest to the board, use the private messaging system. . Inappropriate or harassing private messages are not permitted. . Private messages ARE subject to edit & review by staff at any time without notice. ENFORCEMENT . Reports of infractions of these rules should be submitted to the moderators by private messaging. . Material that violates the rules may be edited or deleted without prior notice. . Moderator actions are not open to public debate. Judgments by the Moderators can be discussed with the Moderators via private messaging but not on the board itself. . Users who persistently violate the rules will be banned. The above rules are subject to change without notice. Violations of these rules will result in ONE warning. If that isn�t effective, the offender will be banned from the board. We reserve the right to ban immediately someone posting a flagrant flame or spam. The decision of the Staff is final. You may appeal for reinstatement. Such appeal will be discussed by Staff, and if merited, you may be reinstated. But only once.
Considering the real-time nature of this message board, it is impossible for us to review messages or confirm the validity of information posted. Please remember that we do not actively monitor the contents of posted messages and are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of this BB or any entity associated with this BB. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, so please realize that we may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violate of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyrighted material is owned by you. Although we do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to review, edit and delete any message (INCLUDING Private Messages between members) for any reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold us harmless with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). We reserve the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you.
Your use of this site constitute an implicit acceptance of ALL rules and operating procedures outlined above. Additionally, you agree to defend, indemnify and hold 24 Hour Campfire and our subsidiaries, parents, affiliates, officers, directors, agents and employees harmless from and against any and all claims, losses, liabilities, costs and expenses INCLUDING Attorneys' Fees arising from or in connection with (A) your breach of this agreement; (B) your violation of any local, state, Federal, foreign or international laws, codes and regulations; (C) your violation of any third party's rights including, but not limited to, infringement of any copyright, violation of any proprietary right and invasion of any privacy rights. THIS OBLIGATION WILL SURVIVE THE TERMINATION OF THIS AGREEMENT. _________________________________________________
This place has rules? Who knew. I always thought new guys should observe and learn the rules, not quote them as if they conferred some sort of authority
You have apparently decided that it's OK for me to keep my J.C.Higgin's rifle and I won't get arrested for possession here in Michigan. Am I correct in assuming that, like the Watergate guys used to say to the senate committee, this statement "is no longer operational"?
Quote
A commercially manufactured gun with no serial number is illegal and cannot be owned.
So, my plight has changed from a blanket prohibition to one that might get me in trouble in Ringwood, New Jersey.
Originally Posted by William_E_Tibbe
Bob: Ill give you my sons address in Ringwood New Jersey and invite you to try to ship a gun without a serial number.
FYI I shipped numerous guns to him and I know the score.
Well, you needn't bother giving me your son's address. (Whitepages thinks it's 26 Underhill Terrace, but of course that may be wrong.)
What I would require before shipping any guns to your son is the first three and the last five digits of his Federal Firearms Dealers License. If he doesn't have an FFL then no gun gets shipped whether or not it has a serial number.
However, I'm willing to learn about NJ laws. Please indicate the statutes that make it a crime to take possession of a serial-numberless pre-68 J.C.Higgins 22 rifle, as opposed to one with a serial number.
[quote=Steelhead]No, Willie E. Tibbe is a retard. He was a retard 10 years ago when he had another logon name, he is a retard now. I kicked him in the nuts repeatedly back then for continually spewing FALSE information.
He hasn't changed in the least. There is nothing helpful about this POS troll, trust me. [/quote
I have no idea as to who you are and I have NO recollection at all of your allegations.
Certainly you are aware of the website regs that forbid deliberate attacks, insults, degradations, which you violate with apparent impunity.
You have a simple choice, Knock it off or your ass will be kicked all over the ball park. FYI I'm associated with Law enforcement. Get your pocket book ready. This will take you to litigation and cost you big time for slander and defamation.
Result of which you will be banned from this site permanently.
Bottom line : Piss me off and I will mess you up like your worst nightmare,
Libel. Slander is spoken.
"Piss me off and I will mess you up..." sounds like a threat....
David
Associated with Law Enforcement could mean he's a crossing guard, or in jail, or owns a whistle.......
“The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
I'm not law enforcement direct but civilian, autonomous collaborator with The FBI for infrastructure protection.
Wait.. so, TSA?
“The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
I had two handguns that were brought in from overseas. I tried to register them but needed three character witnesses which I didn't have at the time. I even wrote to the County executive but wasn't able to engender more people. So I let it lay for 40 years. Couple of years ago I had the bug and necessity to transfer those to my son in a different state. By hook and crook and jawboning I was able to persuade the sheriffs department and county permit office to issue the permits. Thus I transferred/shipped them out of my state to my son who went through the drill and got them accepted and permitted in his state.
In your case don't stir sleeping dogs. Let it lay. You have a snowballs chance in hell of ever transferring title, or shipping out of state, or selling commercially such as on consignment in a gun store without a serial number. If you eventually pass it on to heirs just zip it up and keep quiet.
Get friendly with your local Law Enforcement. They are generally, predominately good guys and usually are accommodating in the matter if legitimate and makes sense.
Do you proof read your bulls chit before you type it?
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
Do you proof read your bulls chit before you type it?
talk about the pot speaking to the kettle.....
At least mine cam be blamed on autocorrect
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
But first, if some spoilers had actually read my original post I was responding to the question posed, by invitation, from the person who started this thread, they would have seen that I had interjected lots of conditions and scenarios about various guns.
As always and particularly on this forum, some people seem to think that one size fits all.
#1. The touted GCA 1968 law requiring that all guns needed a serial number was preceded by a 1938 Federal Firearms act. The 1938 act required rifles to be stamped with serial numbers. Prior to that date serial numbers were by manufacturers option and all of the serious ones did number their guns and some even numbered individual parts. .22 caliber and shotguns didn't need serial numbers until 1968.
#2. If not MOST, then many JC Higgins Sears Roebuck .22 caliber rifles didn't have serial numbers. Sears farmed out the manufacturing of their guns to numerous manufacturers. A model number appeared on each gun and it identified the company that manufactured the gun for Sears. There were numerous well known manufacturers, Americans, as well as Mauser. The Mauser pirates counterfeiting, that I alluded to, occurred at the close of WW11 when Mauser was dismembered and the equipment hauled off to other countries one of which was Serbia.
#3. As to your gun without serial number, to determine if it is legal or illegal depends on caliber and date of manufacture. If it is post 1968 illegal. If it is post 1938 and a rifle larger than .22 illegal. If it is pre 1938, without serial number, probably legal. If the serial number was effaced - illegal - a felony. Some sentences were 5 years and $10,000 fine. Again, I covered this in my original post here but it apparently was too brief, or not sufficiently explanatory and lacked detail for some to absorb and for that I am sorry.
#4. As you astutely observed you can't ship to my son directly to his home address. He isn't FFL. You need to address it to him CO Thunder Mountain. That's a FFL skeet range close by.
As to my involvement with law enforcement, in case my fellow posters are not familiar, here's the Infragard website. I'm not recruiting for them but I will say anyone who cares about our country may want to try and get accepted as a member and help out to protect our people and our country. I'll amplify strenuously that my involvement does not in any way connect with my activity here. It is totally separated.
I had two handguns that were brought in from overseas. I tried to register them but needed three character witnesses which I didn't have at the time. I even wrote to the County executive but wasn't able to engender more people. So I let it lay for 40 years. Couple of years ago I had the bug and necessity to transfer those to my son in a different state. By hook and crook and jawboning I was able to persuade the sheriffs department and county permit office to issue the permits. Thus I transferred/shipped them out of my state to my son who went through the drill and got them accepted and permitted in his state.
In your case don't stir sleeping dogs. Let it lay. You have a snowballs chance in hell of ever transferring title, or shipping out of state, or selling commercially such as on consignment in a gun store without a serial number. If you eventually pass it on to heirs just zip it up and keep quiet.
Get friendly with your local Law Enforcement. They are generally, predominately good guys and usually are accommodating in the matter if legitimate and makes sense.
This person has no earthly clue WTF he's talking about.
Travis
You're just figgerin' THAT out?!
I took BigStick off my Ignore list and replaced him with that guy.
Stick may not be into social graces but he's actually out there shooting,, loading and making stuff happen. And, he's a pretty good photographer.
But first, if some spoilers had actually read my original post I was responding to the question posed, by invitation, from the person who started this thread, they would have seen that I had interjected lots of conditions and scenarios about various guns.
As always and particularly on this forum, some people seem to think that one size fits all.
Bill: When you find yourself in a hole, it's best to throw away the shovel. Through your statements quoted above, you've gone beyond losing all credibility; you've taken it into the realm of the absurd given your broad brush, unqualified statements from your first post:
Originally Posted by William_E_Tibbe
A commercially manufactured gun with no serial number is illegal and cannot be owned.
........
But you can take this to the bank: Any gun that has the serial number missing is HOT and party to a felony. You can't sell it, you can't own it, you can't ship it.
So do us all a favor, admit you were wrong, and quit digging.
But first, if some spoilers had actually read my original post I was responding to the question posed, by invitation, from the person who started this thread, they would have seen that I had interjected lots of conditions and scenarios about various guns.
As always and particularly on this forum, some people seem to think that one size fits all.
Bill: When you find yourself in a hole, it's best to throw away the shovel. Through your statements quoted above, you've gone beyond losing all credibility; you've taken it into the realm of the absurd given your broad brush, unqualified statements from your first post:
Originally Posted by William_E_Tibbe
A commercially manufactured gun with no serial number is illegal and cannot be owned.
........
But you can take this to the bank: Any gun that has the serial number missing is HOT and party to a felony. You can't sell it, you can't own it, you can't ship it.
So do us all a favor, admit you were wrong, and quit digging.
Smoke:
You're right in your world and context. Absolutely.
I really like the aspect of very old and very experienced posters meticulously scrutinizing everything and exposing the false, disingenuous, information. Including mine.
I'm ready to confess and be sentenced, But what is my crime ??
I don't weasel around duck and dodge. _____________________________________________________
I'm ready to confess and be sentenced, But what is my crime ??
Bill: First, I'm not "very old." Second, it does not take "meticulous scrutiny" to find the doublespeak and contradictions in your posts, they're blatant and obvious.
Your "crime" is in posting erroneous information. If you can't accept being corrected, best to move on.
But first, if some spoilers had actually read my original post I was responding to the question posed, by invitation, from the person who started this thread, they would have seen that I had interjected lots of conditions and scenarios about various guns.
As always and particularly on this forum, some people seem to think that one size fits all.
Bill: When you find yourself in a hole, it's best to throw away the shovel. Through your statements quoted above, you've gone beyond losing all credibility; you've taken it into the realm of the absurd given your broad brush, unqualified statements from your first post:
Originally Posted by William_E_Tibbe
A commercially manufactured gun with no serial number is illegal and cannot be owned.
........
But you can take this to the bank: Any gun that has the serial number missing is HOT and party to a felony. You can't sell it, you can't own it, you can't ship it.
So do us all a favor, admit you were wrong, and quit digging.
Smoke:
You're right in your world and context. Absolutely.
I really like the aspect of very old and very experienced posters meticulously scrutinizing everything and exposing the false, disingenuous, information. Including mine.
I'm ready to confess and be sentenced, But what is my crime ??
I don't weasel around duck and dodge. _____________________________________________________
You must be some kind of Kalifornia Transplant, because you certainly don't know enough about guns to be from Wyoming.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Three day weekend and learned three new words. My head will explode and become dehydrated at this rate as opposed to being hydrocephalus. Even used one in a sentence. BEER TIME!
#1. The touted GCA 1968 law requiring that all guns needed a serial number was preceded by a 1938 Federal Firearms act. The 1938 act required rifles to be stamped with serial numbers. Prior to that date serial numbers were by manufacturers option and all of the serious ones did number their guns and some even numbered individual parts. .22 caliber and shotguns didn't need serial numbers until 1968.
#2. If not MOST, then many JC Higgins Sears Roebuck .22 caliber rifles didn't have serial numbers. Sears farmed out the manufacturing of their guns to numerous manufacturers. A model number appeared on each gun and it identified the company that manufactured the gun for Sears. There were numerous well known manufacturers, Americans, as well as Mauser. The Mauser pirates counterfeiting, that I alluded to, occurred at the close of WW11 when Mauser was dismembered and the equipment hauled off to other countries one of which was Serbia.
#3. As to your gun without serial number, to determine if it is legal or illegal depends on caliber and date of manufacture. If it is post 1968 illegal. If it is post 1938 and a rifle larger than .22 illegal. If it is pre 1938, without serial number, probably legal. If the serial number was effaced - illegal - a felony. Some sentences were 5 years and $10,000 fine. Again, I covered this in my original post here but it apparently was too brief, or not sufficiently explanatory and lacked detail for some to absorb and for that I am sorry.
Bill
It hurts to see somebody work that hard to avoid admitting they were wrong...
AND STILL GETTING IT WRONG.
Sorry Bill. 1938 law didn't require serial numbers on squat. Just made it illegal to obliterate any that existed.
Quote
The F.F.A. regulations did not require serial numbers on firearms (necessary to identify a particular gun as having been the subject of a transaction) until 1958, and then exempted .22-caliber rifles from the serial number requirement.
In 1958, new Federal regulations were adopted that extended the record-keeping period from 6 to 10 years after a firearm sales transaction and that required manufacturers' serial numbers on all firearms except .22 caliber rifles
Last edited by Calhoun; 09/05/15.
“The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
William_E_Tibbe- In my previous post, I asked you to cite the New Jersey state or local statutes that make it a crime to take possession of a serial-numberless pre-68 J.C.Higgins 22 rifle, as opposed to one with a serial number.
The ONLY pertinent part of your reply to this request was this:
Originally Posted by William_E_Tibbe
... When the gun arrives without a serial number that's when the fun begins with the Ringwood police. ...
What laws, either state or municipal, support the Ringwood police in their "fun"? Are you stating that they are enforcing some law? What is that law?
Some further notes on your response:
Originally Posted by William_E_Tibbe
#1. The touted GCA 1968 law requiring that all guns needed a serial number was preceded by a 1938 Federal Firearms act. The 1938 act required rifles to be stamped with serial numbers. Prior to that date serial numbers were by manufacturers option and all of the serious ones did number their guns and some even numbered individual parts. .22 caliber and shotguns didn't need serial numbers until 1968.
You're wrong. The Federal Firearms Act of 1938 did not require rifles to be stamped with a serial number. The 1938 act is given in its entirety here: [color:#0000FF]1938 Federal Firearms Act[/color] The only reference to serial numbers in that act is a prohibition against transporting or possessing a firearm from which the serial number has been removed, obliterated, or altered. (Section 2, subdivision (i)). If you can provide one or more references indicating that the 1938 law DID require a serial number on rifles, I'd appreciate your posting it, and will apologize for doubting you.
Originally Posted by William_E_Tibbe
#2. If not MOST, then many JC Higgins Sears Roebuck .22 caliber rifles didn't have serial numbers. Sears farmed out the manufacturing of their guns to numerous manufacturers. A model number appeared on each gun and it identified the company that manufactured the gun for Sears. There were numerous well known manufacturers, Americans, as well as Mauser. The Mauser pirates counterfeiting, that I alluded to, occurred at the close of WW11 when Mauser was dismembered and the equipment hauled off to other countries one of which was Serbia.
I was pretty much aware of this, which is the reason for the description in my first post of this thread, giving an approximate date of manufacture and the identify of the manufacturer.
Quote
#3. As to your gun without serial number, to determine if it is legal or illegal depends on caliber and date of manufacture. If it is post 1968 illegal. If it is post 1938 and a rifle larger than .22 illegal. If it is pre 1938, without serial number, probably legal. If the serial number was effaced - illegal - a felony. Some sentences were 5 years and $10,000 fine. Again, I covered this in my original post here but it apparently was too brief, or not sufficiently explanatory and lacked detail for some to absorb and for that I am sorry.
"If it is post 1938 and a rifle larger than .22 [possession is] illegal." Again, this is a factually incorrect statement. Your paragraph #3 is only in the context of federal law. Before 1968, federal law did not require US manufacturers to apply serial numbers for rifles and shotguns not regulated by the 1934 NFA, regardless of caliber or gauge. (Again, if one exists, an authoritative contrary reference would be appreciated.)
I'll await your citation of the New Jersey law that requires serial numbers on rifles made before 1968. --Bob
Question on Serial Numbers. If I purchase a 80% stripped lower receiver, and later finish it, I assume that it would not require a serial number as long as I'm not selling it commercially. However, if I later try to sell it to another private citizen, would that transaction be legal?
This whole thing about guns with no serial number is just beyond absurd.
As it turns out primarily guns without serial numbers are overwhelmingly those marketed by Sears Roebuck under the name JC Higgins. And those were reputed to be mostly .22 caliber. Sears stopped marketing guns in 1962.
Numerous American manufacturer provided guns to Sears. Sears didn't make guns, they only sold them under their brand name. You would not actually know who the real manufacturer was.
The manufacturer used serial numbers on their guns made and sold by them. It was first a manufacturing/inventory control procedure and second a way to know how many guns were actually produced.
I don't know if the manufacturers kept an internal log or accounting of guns made for Sears/JC Higgins but I would surmise that they did. They probably didn't want their own production run serial numbers co-mingled with the Sears guns.
When we talk about building mountains out of mole hills this is a colossal example. It all boils down to predominantly one marketer - Sears/JC Higgins and principally one caliber .22 rim fire.
All of the kibitzers , interlopers that get their jolly's sniping and making mean spirited insults belong in one particular class. When you look at any given thread the numbers of "views" are huge compared to the actual count of respondents. That means that the majority are lurkers who read but don't actually post. Thus the numbers of kibitzers/interlopers is really very small.
That's the way it has been for as far back as I can remember. It's that segment of the population that has been around and always will be.
Add Winchester model 37, single shot shotguns to the no serial number list. I went nuts trying to find one on my gun, only to find out they didn't put serial numbers on them.
This whole thing about guns with no serial number is just beyond absurd.
As it turns out primarily guns without serial numbers are overwhelmingly those marketed by Sears Roebuck under the name JC Higgins. And those were reputed to be mostly .22 caliber. Sears stopped marketing guns in 1962.
Just quit already. I well remember Sears catalogs listing guns into the 70s as well as guns in stores. (I don't remember anything about guns in 1962 other than that my dad seemed to be a crackshot with his Model 62 Winchester.) Ted Williams guns didn't come around until the J.C. Higgins moniker was dropped anyway.
I had a Remington 552 without a serial number. That's one that stands out. I've owned a few others, including shotguns. I've never owned a 'Sears' brand firearm in my life either.
Was in your area last week, was in Elizabeth seeing some friends. Really thinking about moving around there after I retire from the Army Feb 2017.
Thread derail over!
______________________________________
Yetti:
I too am a vet. My son is a mortgage banker with Bank of America. He can fix you up with a mortgage in jig time. He has a handle on all real estate which is presently land office booming in his area, working 6 days a week and can't keep up.
Just a little bit confusing. Are you thinking about moving to Elizabeth, New Jersey?
If such I suggest that you explore the State extensively.
If a hunter, there are super over abundances of deer, bears and turkeys. They are EVERYWHERE. Most are in high density populated areas and can't be hunted. Shotgun only. No rifles.
If you like the ocean and fishing it is a super good opportunity.
My son has bears in his yard constantly for 26 years. Deer are eating everything. Turkeys are prolific like never before. Look up North and West for remote areas, state land, abundant game. in the Hudson Highlands.
I acknowledge your query's. Give me a little time. I will consult with the Ringwood police and get back to you.
For you and other please understand that I don't make this stuff up. I'm posting info from others. I don't vet it for accuracy. There isn't any more reason to believe the information that I obtain than to believe your information. ____________________________________________________________
Was in your area last week, was in Elizabeth seeing some friends. Really thinking about moving around there after I retire from the Army Feb 2017.
Thread derail over!
______________________________________
Yetti:
I too am a vet. My son is a mortgage banker with Bank of America. He can fix you up with a mortgage in jig time. He has a handle on all real estate which is presently land office booming in his area, working 6 days a week and can't keep up.
Just a little bit confusing. Are you thinking about moving to Elizabeth, New Jersey?
If such I suggest that you explore the State extensively.
If a hunter, there are super over abundances of deer, bears and turkeys. They are EVERYWHERE. Most are in high density populated areas and can't be hunted. Shotgun only. No rifles.
If you like the ocean and fishing it is a super good opportunity.
My son has bears in his yard constantly for 26 years. Deer are eating everything. Turkeys are prolific like never before. Look up North and West for remote areas, state land, abundant game. in the Hudson Highlands.
I acknowledge your query's. Give me a little time. I will consult with the Ringwood police and get back to you.
For you and other please understand that I don't make this stuff up. I'm posting info from others. I don't vet it for accuracy. There isn't any more reason to believe the information that I obtain than to believe your information. ____________________________________________________________
Bill
Gee, you're Google Foo guy, who would have guessed.
Here's a hint, if you don't know, don't post. Of course you will continue to post inaccuracies, because that's how you get your jollies.
Along with the pair of old German guns mentioned previously, I have two Marlin .22's without serial numbers. It wasn't just cheap single-shots made for Sears.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Along with the pair of old German guns mentioned previously, I have two Marlin .22's without serial numbers. It wasn't just cheap single-shots made for Sears.
There was a considerable period of time when Remington didn't put serial numbers on their 51x series of bolt action .22s, something like 1940 to 1967.
Along with the pair of old German guns mentioned previously, I have two Marlin .22's without serial numbers. It wasn't just cheap single-shots made for Sears.
Hi John:
As you can see the boys are having a jolly good time at my expense. I don't mind their clowning around at all. I just write them off as that element of our society that merits tolerance for the basically worthless annoyance among us. E,G, non contributing pests without goal or objective. Chatter box spoilers that contribute nothing .
I'll say that posters who claim to own guns without serial numbers should be given the benefit of the doubt. But as Ronald Reagan said : Trust but verify!
In your case you enjoy an excellent reputation. Thus I will say that there seems to be some relatively verifiable exceptions to the generally assumed culprit alone - JC Higgins Sears .22 caliber rim fire.
However if I was a betting man I would say that there are not one in 1,000 posters here who can claim a firearm without a whole number.
I would like to say that I don't understand how we came to be diverted onto this non-issue but I really do.
Along with the pair of old German guns mentioned previously, I have two Marlin .22's without serial numbers. It wasn't just cheap single-shots made for Sears.
Hi John:
As you can see the boys are having a jolly good time at my expense. I don't mind their clowning around at all. I just write them off as that element of our society that merits tolerance for the basically worthless annoyance among us. E,G, non contributing pests without goal or objective. Chatter box spoilers that contribute nothing .
I'll say that posters who claim to own guns without serial numbers should be given the benefit of the doubt. But as Ronald Reagan said : Trust but verify!
In your case you enjoy an excellent reputation. Thus I will say that there seems to be some relatively verifiable exceptions to the generally assumed culprit alone - JC Higgins Sears .22 caliber rim fire.
However if I was a betting man I would say that there are not one in 1,000 posters here who can claim a firearm without a whole number.
I would like to say that I don't understand how we came to be diverted onto this non-issue but I really do.
Bill
You back pedal better than most defensive backs!
The fact remains you are a fugging idiot, full stop, end of story
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
The fact remains you are a fugging idiot, full stop, end of story
You are being mean to fugging idiots.. This guy makes Lee 24 sound like a genius..
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
This is beginning to look more and more like the Jonathan Livingston Seagull syndrome. Flying far over the heads of those lesser endowed.
The lesser suffering from jealousy, envy coupled with paranoia and malicious inclinations.
I read all of the insults. That seems to be scary. Some of those loons shouldn't even own guns.
I was apparently wrong in thinking that there had been a vast improvement in the quality of poster from many years ago.
Thus hasta luego, good bye. I won't be posting here on this matter any more. Its a done deal. You will be talking to your self from here on in.
*( Note that this is addressed to that tiny percentage of dysfunctional spoilers who are too vocal and far too disruptive to common sense exchanges of valid ideas and opinions ).
*( Note that this is addressed to that tiny percentage of dysfunctional spoilers who are too vocal and far too disruptive to common sense exchanges of valid ideas and opinions ).
Valid opinions are welcome here. Come back when you have one.
For you and other please understand that I don't make this stuff up. I'm posting info from others. I don't vet it for accuracy.
So you are saying you simply regurgitate information that you've heard/read without any first hand knowledge of the facts and without taking the time to find out if what you are posting is accurate?
And you believe this should get you off the hook for posting incorrect information and then blindly defending it?
Does that seem reasonable to you?
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.” ― Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear
For you and other please understand that I don't make this stuff up. I'm posting info from others. I don't vet it for accuracy.
So you are saying you simply regurgitate information that you've heard/read without any first hand knowledge of the facts and without taking the time to find out if what you are posting is accurate?
And you believe this should get you off the hook for posting incorrect information and then blindly defending it?
Does that seem reasonable to you?
It was on the internet... how could it not be true?
“The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
A commercially manufactured gun with no serial number is illegal and cannot be owned.
Wrong. Really wrong. Serial numbers weren't required until the Gun Control Act of 1968 came about. Millions upon millions of firearms were manufactured before that. Some had serial numbers but most of the lower priced ones did not. They were all "grandfathered" under the act and all, even without serial numbers, are currently legal to own.
Oh dear me! You're only joking - right? You HAVE to be ----seriously!
It's really degenerated from the sublime to the absurd.
One thing that I always do is fact check. And I have the facts to back up my comments. In any event those facts are not something that I "manufacture" from mythology. They are the laws made by someone else.
Sad to say that some posters here are not capable of understanding the numerous why's, wherefores, provisos and contingencies in my post. I just didn't want to make it miles long. The "shortfalls" in my post that you highlighted were already allowed for contingently in my comments.
Notice that I am polite and respectful in my responses. I don't respond to rules violators. ___________________________________________________________
I may add that the gun laws vary widely from state to state, county by county and Town/Village locally, as well as from Law Enforcement to Law enforcement - a lot.
In addition to my owning, transporting and/or shipping guns here in Wyoming, South Dakota, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania New Jersey, New York, Missouri the USA I also owned/ transported/ shipped, *( Sold at times ) rifles and hand guns in Canadian Provinces, Venezuela, Tunisia, Senegal, Ethiopia, Liberia, Cambodia and Vietnam. I also carried some in my luggage on airplanes and through customs including France and the Netherrlands. Did it since 1956.
Originally Posted by William_E_Tibbe
A commercially manufactured gun with no serial number is illegal and cannot be owned.
This is wrong. As stated, serial numbers were only required in the US by the Gun Control Act of 1968. Prior to that time millions of inexpensive guns had no serial numbers and it's perfectly legal to own and transfer them.
Nobody likes to be wrong, but when it happens, man up and admit it. Don't pile on more BS and especially don't claim to be some sort of expert operating on a higher level beyond the reckoning of the rest of us.
My god! How does someone live on this planet and not know what is real and what is not? I have a few with no serial number, and it is perfectly legal up here.
"The 375HH is the greatest level of power you can get for the investment in recoil." (JJHack) 79s and losttrail, biggest waste of air.
To be fair it does appear that he is from New Jersey...and they let their kids swim in sewage mixers
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
This is beginning to look more and more like the Jonathan Livingston Seagull syndrome.
Have you read the story of Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach? The seagull who was rejected by his flock for being different.
Do you ever get the feeling that you simply don’t fit in anywhere? That literally nobody on the planet views life through your eyes?
_______________________________________________
Add:
Thanks for your input. I always respond respectfully with politeness. And I abide by the rules of the forum that specifically prohibit many posts and call for banning violators who number many here.
If you read the Jonathan Livingstone Seagull syndrome fiction it actually matched almost 99.99% of my actions and philosophy.
It's a sad day for American that I apparently cannot reach out to so many dysfunctional, low mentality, fellow gun owners who are drinking the purple lemonade.
And in the same breath, you insult the general population. One could safely assume it is all-inclusive with wording such as:
Quote
It's a sad day for American that I apparently cannot reach out to so many dysfunctional, low mentality, fellow gun owners who are drinking the purple lemonade.
Perhaps your approach is somewhat too condescending for such a group? Or, perhaps *they* sense a Superiority complex and no substance to back it up.
There is, if even grudgingly, respect for the knowledgeable here, even if the approach is rough---hint.
Given some of the information I've seen you give, and your response to even a polite correction, it's no wonder you get the reception you do.
Remember, when you point a finger at someone, you have three pointing back at you.
This is beginning to look more and more like the Jonathan Livingston Seagull syndrome. Flying far over the heads of those lesser endowed.
By "lesser endowed", did you actually mean not 'having swallowed hook, line, and sinker' as pictured above? If so, I would say you just paid a whole bunch of folks a nice complement. So kudos for your gracious benevolocity. (Shatting out the line and sinker is a good start. Keep it coming! )
Last edited by Klikitarik; 09/10/15.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
This is beginning to look more and more like the Jonathan Livingston Seagull syndrome.
Have you read the story of Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach? The seagull who was rejected by his flock for being different.
Do you ever get the feeling that you simply don’t fit in anywhere? That literally nobody on the planet views life through your eyes?
Actually, I read that dumb hippie book... twice: once when young, once after college to see if I REALLY got it. Summary in the words of Ricky (two first names) Bobby: "I wanna go fast... SPLAT!!"
Uh... I only read to page 6. Are there pics of nekkid chicks yet?
This is beginning to look more and more like the Jonathan Livingston Seagull syndrome.
Have you read the story of Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach? The seagull who was rejected by his flock for being different.
Do you ever get the feeling that you simply don’t fit in anywhere? That literally nobody on the planet views life through your eyes?
Actually, I read that dumb hippie book... twice: once when young, once after college to see if I REALLY got it. Summary in the words of Ricky (two first names) Bobby: "I wanna go fast... SPLAT!!"
Uh... I only read to page 6. Are there pics of nekkid chicks yet?
_______________________________________
Bigfish:
The Johnathan Livingston Seagull syndrome, and it's comments, are now apparently prolific. It is worthless diatribe despite our efforts.
And in the same breath, you insult the general population. One could safely assume it is all-inclusive with wording such as:
Quote
It's a sad day for American that I apparently cannot reach out to so many dysfunctional, low mentality, fellow gun owners who are drinking the purple lemonade.
Perhaps your approach is somewhat too condescending for such a group? Or, perhaps *they* sense a Superiority complex and no substance to back it up.
There is, if even grudgingly, respect for the knowledgeable here, even if the approach is rough---hint.
Given some of the information I've seen you give, and your response to even a polite correction, it's no wonder you get the reception you do.
Remember, when you point a finger at someone, you have three pointing back at you.
Hey Tibbe,.....can the BS for a bit, and READ this.
When finished reading it, READ IT AGAIN, 'cuz it's BANG ON !
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
is the fact that you didn't understand the OP's question.
Oh, he understood it. He was just repeatedly wrong about the answer. Rather than man up and say "Dang, I was wrong. Thanks for the good info" he just keeps talking down to us and saying we're too stupid to understand the actual truth and besides, he has links to law enforcement so how could we possibly doubt him?
Don't have any use for anybody who can't admit when he's wrong.
“The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
I was gonna ask the tibster to post an actual photo of himself with a dead animal. But I have a hunch the only way you'll see a photo of him is to google "delusions of grandeur......"
I was gonna ask the tibster to post an actual photo of himself with a dead animal. But I have a hunch the only way you'll see a photo of him is to google "delusions of grandeur......"
In years past, several rectal orifices like him have posted pics as you suggest, all swiped from somewhere else of course, so these trolls have learned at least that much...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
I was gonna ask the tibster to post an actual photo of himself with a dead animal. But I have a hunch the only way you'll see a photo of him is to google "delusions of grandeur......"
What stands me apart is that I abide by the house rules. I do not inflict personal insults and I am always polite and respectful.
Face it fellers, we're all idiots who have no clue. (And that goes especially for you Ingwetibbe. And you're obviously a lot less older than your snot-rocket pictures look, meaning they're's [sic] no way you have a clue........especially!)
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
I was gonna ask the tibster to post an actual photo of himself with a dead animal. But I have a hunch the only way you'll see a photo of him is to google "delusions of grandeur......"
He has more than one camp. Mine was up north. It was quite a drive of a couple of hours from his home town , then in the middle of nowhere, took a small tracked ATV for 3 hours back in to a lake shore, then across the lake to a nice cabin. There were only three hunters in the camp. The cook was my guides sister, a fabulous cook who made fresh bread and excellent table fare.
On the first day my guide and I left the cabin at 9:00 AM. We walked 50 feet and saw a cow with a calf. Another 500 yards we spotted a moose lurking back in the brush. Maybe 200 - 300 yards more we looked back and saw three bulls trotting across in open ground. About 200 yards away. I spined him on the 3rd shot. There were also two other holes in him. 3 for 3 standing running shots.
By 10:30 AM I was back in the cabin. My guide took the ATV and skinned/dismembered the moose. I took a shower and lounged around the cabin. Couldn't get out next day. Took my moose to a processor who prepped and froze it and it was ready to go the next morning. I gave 1/2 of it to Aster.
He's a prince of a guy. I've been to his home and met his wife. I hunted with his cousin the previous year for caribou. I hunted 1/2 hour to shoot my caribou first day, morning.
Price of my moose hunt was $4,000 1/3 of Alaska prices. My caribou $3,600. Prices escalated over the years and there is less game now. It's around $6,000 these days.
ALL of the Canadians I met and knew were fabulous people. A special breed. Absolutely the people I like best in this world.
If you speak to Aster tell him Bill Tibbe recommended you. He won't jerk you around he will give you the straight scoop.
* Addendum:
In Asters lesser camp with more traffic those hunters opened the door at 7:00 AM and shot two bulls from the doorway - first morning.
*( Note that Aster deliberately limits traffic to ensure good results. On his chart in his cabin where I stayed, the record dating back at least 10 seasons is 100% success. NO -one ever left his camp without a moose ).
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