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I killed two coyotes once with my .340 Wby and the 225 spire point. Both shot tight behind the shoulder, and both ran probably 100 yards before toppling over. I was stunned being what I had just shot them with. This same bullet/load had absolutely flattened deer, elk and caribou.


Speed and bullet construction doesn't mean $hit if your target isn't big or stout enough to expand the bullets.



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Originally Posted by Dog_Hunter
I killed two coyotes once with my .340 Wby and the 225 spire point. Both shot tight behind the shoulder, and both ran probably 100 yards before toppling over. I was stunned being what I had just shot them with. This same bullet/load had absolutely flattened deer, elk and caribou.


Speed and bullet construction doesn't mean $hit if your target isn't big or stout enough to expand the bullets.


If the bullet is too big in relation to the size of the critter you many not get much expansion.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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D H -

IMO your bullet was not designed for your game/target

Jerry


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Ya, I realize the bullet was simply too stout for coyotes...That happened in my early 20s and I have learned a lot since then.

I was just illustrating that an animal has to be able to provide some sort of resistance for a given bullet to expand, regardless of speed.



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I am.....skeptical.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Originally Posted by Dog_Hunter
I killed two coyotes once with my .340 Wby and the 225 spire point. Both shot tight behind the shoulder, and both ran probably 100 yards before toppling over. I was stunned being what I had just shot them with. This same bullet/load had absolutely flattened deer, elk and caribou.


Speed and bullet construction doesn't mean $hit if your target isn't big or stout enough to expand the bullets.


----------------------------------------------------

How many times has that happened to me on animals ?? Plenty.

Behind the shoulder and below the spine is probably through the rib cage and maybe lungs. Maybe heart too.

The hydraulic shock is tremendous. Witness a watermellon blowing up. The animals are apparently running on adrenalin and some latent motor functions but the shock is seemingly insufficient to flatten the animal. 100 yards is about right for the "run". I have had them go 75 to about 150 or so. Some keel over and some just stand there sick, head down, unable to do anything except stand up. Some run out of sight and I have to track them. I blasted one buck at about 35 to 50 yards, that came over a ridge and didn't see me. Shot him clean through. He was bleeding like a stuck pig but ran 300 - 400 yards. It was a heavily hunted area with swarms of other hunters. I tracked him but some other hunter shot him a couple of hundred yards in front of me, grabbed the antlers and ran down the mountain as fast as his legs could carry him.

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by denton
Quote
Denton:

You posted:

"If your bullet impacts ...that point, penetration begins to decrease".

Sorry but I just don't understand. Something is getting lost in the interpretation.

Can/will you please elaborate ?


Sure. Let me have another try at it.

Here is actual average test data from 30-06 cup and core bullets impacting at various speeds

[Linked Image]

Most people are shocked that the curve slopes downward to the right, meaning you get less penetration as impact speed increases. Below about 2100 FPS, you get very deep penetration because the bullet does not open. Above about 2800 FPS, the bullet begins to fail, and penetration decreases. Between those two speeds, the length of the wound channel is about 15 inches, regardless of where in that window you are.

Partitions open at about 17-1800 FPS, and give about 16 inches of penetration regardless of impact speed above that point.

So more speed does not give you more penetration. In fact, if you're shooting something for big game with an MV above 3000 FPS, your bullets will frequently fail on shots within 100 yards or so, unless you use premium bullets.

Quote
Denton, I have to disagree with you a bit.

A faster impact will give you a wider wound channel which can result in more internal damage then a long narrow wound channel. The wider the wound channel, the better the chance for a CNS hit, which is what produced most DRT results.

A 160gr bullet leaving the barrel at 3400 can have amazing on game effects.


You may well be correct about getting a wider wound channel. I'm still wrestling with that one.


Above 3k it's time to switch to a modern, bonded bullet.

___________________________________________________________

I won't argue with the post or the study. To be copasetic, however, I will say that I may not disagree with the findings but I will amplify that my "take" on bullet expansion, penetrations has been formulated over many years of field experience.

Again I will beat up on the bullet peddlers who are desperately searching for more and more malarkey, to run their jive on the unsuspecting potential customer. It's just plain and simple 90% hogwash. I don't buy it in a millisecond. Also again for the old Guys, please don't pay any attention to my opinions. These are not for you, these are for the young, inexperienced fellows who need to know the facts accurately and honestly absent all of the smoke and mirrors. At the risk of repeating myself I will say again that we could get rid of 90% of all cartridges, calibers and rifles and still have far more than any one of us could contend with in a lifetime. That means that if Ken Howell is right about 10,000, losing 9,000 still leaves 1,000 for you to tinker with. Not likely.

The above penetration study is missing some important details. While I don't denigrate it, I know from a lifetime of hunting that there are several aspects of penetration, effectiveness that need to be taken into consideration. What the study does illustrate is the desirability of matching bullet types with velocity.

But I'm a good sport. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade. If it is a turn on to debate the details that's just hunkey dorey with me and more power. Everyone's opinion counts. That's how we learn. Free exchange of ideas and opinions.

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Originally Posted by Bighorn
Originally Posted by jwall

SLOWER bullets---
1. take longer to get to the game, allowing the game to move some, or allowing another animal to interrupt/deflect the bullet.

2. take longer to get there IF they get there. (edit to correct)

3. do NOT travel as FLAT.

4. do NOT hit as hard.

Hi-Vel accomplishes a few things that SLOW bullets can not.

These things ARE why I strive for the best velocity WITH the best accuracy I can GET.
Jerry

Roy Weatherby would have agreed with all that.


Bighorn -

That is true but a couple of points -

I have never owned 'any' Weatherby of any cal/cart.
I am not interested in any of the small Bees.

IMO - the 7 Bee is too SIMILAR to the 7 RM.

IF the 300 Win will not kill any game>> the 300 Bee can not. You need even more.

I own an 8 mm RM and don't need it, so I certainly don't need any larger Bee.

As to this thread -

I don't see nor ever have seen any disadvantage to Hi Vel, AS LONG AS your bullet can operate at the speed.

1 last point and don't want to be offensive.

There are folks, shooters, hunters, who don't want/like/or are afraid of REcoil.

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

There are NO free lunches.

Jerry


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Above 3k it's time to switch to a modern, bonded bullet.


Yes it is. I'd even put the bar a little lower, at about 2800 FPS.

We have some really excellent choices these days.


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IMHO speed is a factor in a kill, but having shot quite a few with the vaunted 257 wtby and 100 ttsx at fairly max loads, I've yet to see one fall over DRT.

Rare for them to go more than 20-30 steps, but they do. Same with my buddies experiences when we bought twins...

And I've had to trail some over 100 yards a few times. A few times with almost no blood.

But they are dead and you do find them.

I have the same results from my 32-20. And about everything in between.

Ran a 243 for years, had some DRT shots not related to shot placement there at times too, then bought into all of hte wtby hype and bought a 300... only deer to ever DRT was a facing shot, 180 partition stopped in hindquarter... so all energy expended there...

Mind you I dont' shoot bones, only ribs and lungs typically. If I want less tracking or meat waste I shoot heads.

IMHO the only way to be sure of DRT is to break up the CNS in some form or fashion, by luck ( high shoulder shooters IMHO) or on purpose.

I do think that there may be a slight edge to faster rounds on the non DRT hits overall, but there are so many otehr factors involved that I"ve seen over the years it almost all goes out the door.

How loud is the shot. How calm or agitated the deer is. Is it rut. Are you hunting a feeder or natural trail, blind or no blind? Did the deer just exhale or inhale? Did you hit an artery or a vein.

Just like blood trails or lack of have various reasons.

As to longer shots, you have hit em right first, wind drift is the big unknown so I have always strived to CYA as best I can on that, and thats not a light bullet typically.... after that bullet construction and speed finally...

YMMV.



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Originally Posted by Steelhead
There's a reason so many of the 'great' rounds were moderate speed, because they didn't have the bullets we have today.

Nor the good steels that would consistently hold up to 65KPSI or so either IMHO...


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Rost,

You are correct, there is more to the equation then just speed. When I say "speed kills", I'm thinking of real speed with a real bullet.

One of my favorite combinations is a 160gr Nosler Accubond leaving my 7mm STW around 3400. So I have bullet that will violently open up, yet hold together to make deep holes. In the real world with wind and critter that have a mind of there own, placement is not always perfect, but the increased destruction does increase your acceptable margin of error, and what could of been a chase can be turned into a critter that isn't going any where. I do get more DRT's with this combination, but IMO that largely due to a higher probability that I will damage/shock the CNS with the larger wound cavity.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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All the deer I've shot w the 257 and the standard 100r Hornady pill, have not taken step one. If I remember correctly, I shot three with the 117 RN and they did run, but not far, definitively less than fifty yards, which is fifty yards too far..


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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I suspect that you are exactly right with the frangible bullets.

Something I just won't risk when barnes are available.

Just me of course.

And I hear you on trailing, I've said it before and got ripped for it, but I enjoy following the trail. Its just part of the hunt and the puzzle to me. Likely because I started bowhunting at an early age and you simply have not many options there... either learn to trail or loose out. You don't have the luxury of not trailing.

I have a box of 80 barnes, and one day I'll ramp them up just to see... if you have no issues with a frangible 100, an 80 mono won't... but I still expect that its all going to be shot placement. And I still suspect if I wanted to go backwards to a cup and core bullet, I still would see very few DRTs due to how I choose to place the bullet.


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For a Nosler Partition or Barnes TTSX, drive it either fast or faster. You'll never be sorry.

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And the good thing about Barnes.. you can drive em slow and they still work just fine...


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Originally Posted by denton


Hydrostatic shock is an oxymoron. Hydro means water, and static means standing still. Hydrostatics is the study of water or other liquids that are not in motion.

Now maybe there is some form of hydraulic shock at work when a bullet impacts. Maybe that kills game faster. I don't claim to know. But please don't call it hydrostatic shock.


Shock-1-a sudden upsetting or surprising event or experience.
2-a violent shaking movement caused by an impact, explosion, or tremor.

The disruption of the fluids at rest is the defining point of the hydrostatic shock.

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Static means not moving.

Shock means what you defined it to be.

I don't have a concept for a not moving shock.


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The term was coined by non-physicist hunters, and is somewhat of a paradox. For years I've been preaching what denton said. Hydraulic shock is probably the best descriptor for what actually happens.

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I have never seen a bullet that kills faster than a Barnes TSX when you really get the speed up regardless of its cal and weight.


A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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