Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles Reduced Loads.....Trail Boss

Decided to monkey with reduced loads for bunnies and loaded up some .223 and some .223AI with Trail Boss...according to direction.
The stuff worked great! I didn't clock it, but trajectory looks like .22 mag...about 1900 with a 55 grain bullet. Excellent accuracy.
Weird stuff to work with...8.4 grains fills a .223 case...which is how that rifle liked it.
The .223AI liked a lighter 8.0 grains the best.


Bunny Armageddon starts Monday...

Yeah man. My daughters love shooting Trailboss loads. 7.7 gr under a 50 Zmax is cheap fun in the .223's. I just use a lee dipper and crank em out without measuring.

Do you know what speed you are getting?


Was my guess about right?

Tom -
Where did you find the data? The Hodgdon website only lists a fixed load of 4.0 grains of Trail Boss in the 223 and only with 55 grain bullets (FMJ) for a velocity of ~1,100 fps.
Bob

Hodgdon has a PDF on their site with complete instructions on loading Trail Boss...its really easy. Fill it up without compressing it...thats your max load.

70% of that is your starting load.

Even at max it doesn't generate more than about 20Kpsi, and its so bulky that 8.4 grains fills a 223 case...no filler necessary.

Just tried it at 100 yds...good enough accuracy M.O.B.H. ( Minute Of Bunny Head)

ingwe, don't you have to keep your reduced load brass from being reloaded with full power loads?????

Never heard of that...don't know why you would.

I am, however, keeping it separate ...just to check out what I'm sure will be an increase in case life.

FWIW I still havent clocked the load but have been perusing ballistics tables. If I'm right..it is indeed 22 mag velocity of about 1900 fps.

Sometimes new brass won't maintain correct headspace when fired with reduced loads, because there's not enough pressure to back the case up against the bolt face. When these "shorter" cases are used for full-pressure loads they can separate.

You might also try Accurate 5744, which seems to be far more available than Trail Boss recently.

Dat makes sense on the new brass Juan. Since Im shooting this in an AI the brass has all been fire formed, so that issue wont crop up....

I didn't look for 5744 but I was looking for Blue Dot, SR4759 and Trail Boss. Found one place with Trail Boss and bought enough to last through bunny season anyway

12/Blue Dot in 223 & 53 V max.........

nice bunny load..........

Yeah, Ive tried Blue Dot and liked it...but I couldn't find any!

yea good schidt..........8.5/Blue Dot in my 300 Ruger BLK & 110's

ingwe, what is your favorite powder for these loads, IF you could get it????

I'll get back to you in a couple days...all I could get was Trail Boss, but I like it a LOT on the loading bench and at the range...hard to make a mistake with it. Im taking the 223AI out for some bunny shooting the next couple days,and we will find out.

Like you...a couple more days in retirementville!

Have a great hunt, and lots of success...

I've played with Trail Boss and the .223. Here's some speeds:

Ruger American Predator .223 1-8 twist

40gr Nosler BT, CCI 41 primer, Federal cases

5.5gr TB - 1670fps

5.0gr TB - 1565fps

4.5gr TB - 1434fps

4.0gr TB - 1294fps

Accuracy averaged around 1 1/2 - 2 inches @ 100 for 5 shots.

FWIW - 27.0gr of Ramshot Exterminator with 40gr BT - 3700fps & .53" group for 5 shots

GL: Looks like I could get a bit more speed out of a lighter bullet...and I will be giving it a try...meanwhile I got out with the 55 grainers for Bunny Armageddon...they worked excellently!


Lots-o-bunnies died.

Ingwe, that looks like your load works. Have you given any thought to a lighter bullet and what that might do to your velocity using Trail Boss?

JB, Is there any 5744 data available for reduced loads?

Yes. There will be experimentation.....


Don't really want or need more speed, the 55s were perfect...but....I like messing with gun stuff!


Im thinking of building a pretty plain jane .223 and make it a dedicated light load rifle....easy to get brass for and performance difference between that and an AI or a deuce is negligible .....light load-wise anyway...

At those speeds, you could use the bullets made for the 22 Hornet. Not sure you'd have to but it's always good to have options so when you start messin' with your rifles, you have additional data points to fill.

True enough! I went with the Horn 55s, convincing myself it was the thing to do cause they are the cheapest and I have a zillion on hand....


Now...off to experiment with others!

I feel like such a gun/reloading slut....

That's because you are...
And so also are many of us.

Duh.....

just sayin'

you boys are discovering what I have been enjoying for years now....these powders can also give a good life to a bolt 223 or 22.250 that have had the barrel shot out....

these type of powders and velocities still give them pretty decent accuracy....

55 FMJs would be my choice for Bugs Bunnies...

but for other stuff, plastic tip 40 grainers are awfully effective at 22 mag style velocities...

How about 50 grain plastic tips?

I got a deal on Zombie Max.....

Just a little more of a good thing....

I've got a 1000 or so of them also...

just FYI for those following this...my load reference indicate with say 4227 and 4198, a charge in the 12 to 15 grain range, give pretty much the same velocity in the 223, 222 Mag and the 22.250, along with the 224 Weatherby and 225 Winchester...

useful info if one has a 22.250 etc, hanging around and might be possessing a worn barrel....

this is an excellent thread and one that I'm learning much from. Thanks to all.

John, Ive got a .22-250...not with a worn barrel...but pretty well languishing, and it needs to get out!

I use Trail Boss with the 190's in my .308. Makes an UBER sub-sonic load.

Much prefer TB to Blue Dot. I'm not a real "details" kinda guy and TB makes it more difficult to blow up my guns.



Travis

Kinda why I liked TB right away...hard to phouc up....

Heres another load...

50 Grain V-Max or Z-Max and 8.0 gr. Trail Boss...

Ok,

That's respectable.

I think I have a container of TB in my cabinet. Was going to load up some blue dot for 223 to bring death to tree rats. May have to try both for a little comparison. I like using a "real" rifle for small game. Keeps the feeling the same come deer season.

And they are on sale as blems at Midway for probably way cheaper than any of us have paid in a long time. Stock up!

Couldnt find them on their website!


Link please!!!!!

Cheaper than Trailboss, and very consistent in small amounts in large cases, is Titegroup. Hodgdon lists 3.1gr at 4k CUP with 55fmj in 223 for 1064. You can go up from there. Slowly. Really impressive stuff in cartridges as small as 17 Fireball and 22 Hornet, on up through very reduced cast loads in 30-06.

FWIW the TB load with 50 grain Zombie Max worked great. Very accurate and a tad more destructive than the 55 soft points. It is of no consequence because nothing but head shots were taken, but may come in handy one day if another coyote holds still long enough.....

H 4895 lists lots of reduced loads. Website says you can start at 60% of the max load of H4895 and work up from there.

I am looking at buying a 223 bolt gun just for this reason. Improved 22 mag speeds, low end 22 hornet, 2400 to 2600 fps. I am looking at savage axis at Walmart 269.00, I have a spare scope mounts/ rings and dies. 22 hornet rifles option are good but way more then i want to spend new or used. I may find a used 223 bolt gun but the 269.00 axis will probably still beat a used guns price. The trigger job on the axis is not hard. The reduced loads are appealing and flexible. I have 2 lbs of 5744 and one pound of blue dot. I can always use the full power 223 loads which are cheap and offer plenty of power. Factory 22 hornet ammo is $$ and I have access to a lot of free 223 brass. Unless someone has a better idea.....

I can't find anything wrong with your idea.

Me too, I just need to set my plan in motion!

I wonder why this couldn't be done with a 204 Ruger? I happen to have a spare...

HOLY old thread Batman!


But there's no reason Trail Boss wouldn't work in a 204..tried it myself and it was real pleasant.

Shoulder setback or headspace reduction is an issue with reduced pressure loads whether the cases are new or have been fired. I shoot many 30-06 reduced loads and it is an issue. Protruding primers are the first giveaway. Trailboss won’t make enough pressure in an ‘06 case to keep it from happening. I have no experience with the .223 case so can’t offer any input there. Thinking out loud and speculating I would guess the Ackley cases would be less prone to this because of the steeper shoulder. Reduced loads are a hoot! My favorite reduced load in the .223 is with about 16.5 grains of IMR4227 and a 55 grain bullet of your choice. Gives around 2,700fps.
INGWE,
You are on to something that is a lot of fun.
Good luck and take care,
Rick

Rick. thanks for the info on setback and headspace reduction. I did not know about that. In the 223 have tried any other powders that were sucessful with reduced loads? i do have some 5744 and blue dot. I do not have any 4227 but i can certainly go find some. Blue

In the 223, Blue Dot at 13 grains is a winner.

I eventually settled on JBs suggested load of 12.5 grains of IMR 4198 and your choice of 55 grain bullet. Never clocked it but by trajectory its about 1950 FPS...22 mag velocity...and noise level. Pretty easy on edibles like rabbits, and doesn't heat up the barrel nearly as quickly on high volume varmint shoots.

In the case of .30-06 setback, it doesn't become an issue until loads drop below the 1600-1800fps threshold. Above that I never encountered it. I don't know the pressure of that threshold but suspect it to be 20K psi or less, probably less. I can't imagine it not being applicable to the .223 also given the similarity in case shape. Generally speaking it usually takes multiple firings of really low pressure loads to make a case exhibit the phenomenon. I took to alternating a mouse fart load with a more powerful load so as to abrogate this and not have to bother with segregating brass, but that got to be a PIA too so now I just keep them separate. The cases that get loaded with lightweight plain based cast bullets driven by pinches of Bullseye or Red Dot for 1100 fps or so are designated strictly for that purpose. (I even open up their flash holes a bit to give more uniform ignition to those tiny powder charges- another reason to keep them segregated, but new evidence shows that larger flash hole diameters aren't the bugaboo we thought they were.)

With the commonality of .223 and .30-06 brass (who doesn't have buckets full of the stuff?), it's not a hardship to designate brass for mouse fart loads and keep it segregated. How you do it is up to you. I paint the heads of that brass with orange fingernail polish, wiped into the headstamp. I know a guy who uses some kind of brass blackening chemical into which he dips the lower half of the cases to make them immediately recognizable.

Lastly, I don't care for Trail Boss at all. It has a poor "bang for the buck" ratio. Charges of traditional pistol/shotgun powder to drive a bullet at sonic or slower speeds are way smaller than Trail Boss charges for the same velocity, making them way cheaper, and more often than not way more accurate too. I gave away the last pound of Trail Boss I had and don't intend to ever go back to it even for its intended purpose which is low vel cast bullet loads in voluminous pistol cases intended for Cowboy Action shooting and the like. The only thing is the handloader must be ever vigilant regarding avoidance of double or triple charging, which means visual inspection, double and triple checked before seating bullets. My philosophy is that if a handloader isn't anal about such safety requirements he probably shouldn't be loading ammunition in the first place.

I too like that velocity range with 55 grain cast .22 bullets, but I do it with .22 Hornet's and R2 Lovell's and do it with 2400. 18-1900 fps is plenty for killing small mammals, and can be done at longer distances than one might think. It just requires the student of such things to sharpen up his range doping skills. At the moment my only .223 is an AR and I've resisted experimenting with lower velocity cast loads in it because, well, I'm lazy and I have more important fish to fry! I really do gotta get a .223 bolt gun or single shot...

I really appreciate you two chiming in as your experience is very helpful to those of us that are still in the learning mode on things such as reduced loads. Thank you.

I use Trail Boss for subsonic 308 loads. I think 11 grains. I use them on pigs I catch in traps a good bit. It’s about like shooting them with a pistol. No recoil .

with 55 grainers, for the average nimrod, make that 12.5 grains...

and don't blue dot with heavier weights, such as 60s, 63s, 68s, 70s, 75, 80s... unless you really know what you are doing....

If you want to go heavier, 5744 or 4198 is a good choice to investigate...

ingwe

Try this link, about 6 pages to scroll through, I didn't try to segregate by bullet diameter.

Blem Link

Holy Crap! Thanks! but I'm pretty bullet rich ( or is that poor...) right now!

Tom,

Do you own a chronograph?

I ask because you keep typing "never clocked it"....

Nope, don't own a chronograph....I am more interested in the bullets landing together than how fast they get there. And every time Ive shot a load over someone else chronograph it came out so damn near what the book said that I just dont give it much thought. Monkeying with reduced loads I shot them at distance ( 200 and 300 yards) Note the drop, check the tables, and extrapolate my velocities from there...


Did you ever clock that 12.5 grain 4198 load?

Can't find it in my loading notes, but did find a maximum load of 20.5 4198 with the 55 Hornady. (Hodgdon lists 20.4 as max with the 55 Speer, but I decided to risk another .1 grain.). It got around 3150 from a 26" barrel and 3075 from a 22".

One handy thing about single-based powders is changing the charge weight also changes the velocity at the same rate. Which is why I suggested 12.5 grains: The math says it would get about 1900, give or take a little, based on 3100 fps for 20.5.

Sounds about right Juan...started using more 4198 in gopher loads besides the reduced ones. Good economical stuff.

ingwe,

In my 22" Ruger Hawkeye 12.5g of IMR 4198 and the 55g Hornady SP w/c clocked at 2,050 FPS. That's with R-P brass and CCI 400's. Your rifle, bullet and brass obviously could differ. Just FYI.

OK, then between you and JB my guess was about right...Im shooting mine in a 22 inch Bbl as well....