Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 7x64 or 8x57

I hope I don't regret asking this question but here goes.

My wife has a very accurate LH Tikka T 3 in 6.5x55 that fits her very well and she shoots it great. I know it will suffice for pretty much anything here except one exception. Some of the spots we hunt in have a lot of grizzlies and we are starting to have more problems with aggressive bears. When I am out with my buddies I don't think much about it but with her for obvious reasons I think about it more.

I would like to get her a second Tikka T3 to compliment the one she has for when we are in some of the spots which have a lot of bears. Looking at Tikka's line up of cartridges the 7x64 and 8x57 stand out as great rounds that don't kick too bad but have a bit more bullet mass. We could also add the 30-06 to that list. She has shot my 270 Win 150 gr handloads without problems but noticed it kicked more than her 6.5x55 so don't want to go too much bigger than that. Also this gun could also be used for bison one day which we are required by law to use a 175 gr or heavier bullet which is another reason for the cut off at the 7x64 on the small side.

The gun has to be a Tikka to keep things similar to what she has now and I'm not really interested in getting a magnum round either.

Thinking of the 7x64 with a 160 or 175 gr Partition, the 8x57 with a 200 gr Partition or maybe a 30-06 with the classic 180 gr Partition load. Not sure if there is much difference in the real world with any of them. Those of you with some experience in these matters what would you do?

Thanks in advance.......

The '06 is a sure bet...

I don`t know about the availability of 8X57 or 7X64 ammo in Canada,but I have found 30-06 all over the world.

I shoot 7X65R, 8X57JRS, and a lot of 30-06. There is not much difference in them with factory loads, although the rimmed 7X64 and rimmed 8X57S versions as above are loaded about 10% milder than the rimless versions you'll be shooting.

In reality I'd feel more comfortable with a 30-06 with a healthy 200gr Partition.

I'd worry a whole lot more about claws and teeth and less about recoil. A 180 Partition is a good compromise, IMO.

...just an opinion for what it's worth.

7x64 the European equivalent of the 280, but I see not much difference between it and the 06 recoil wise, and the 06 does have the heavier bullets, if that matters. I'm sure a 280/7x64 with 175s going to have the same recoil, as an 06 with 180s. So I'd go with what's easier to get ammo for and is recognized as a great round.

If she does feel comfortable going bigger then a 270, get her a 270. Put a good recoil pad on it.

8x57 is more common here but I have also seen 7x64 ammo. I'm not too worried about brass or factory load availability since I like to stock up enough so it isn't a problem.

Like I mentioned earlier for bison we have to use a 175 gr bullet or heavier although Woodleigh does make a 180 gr 277 bullet..........

I have a 7x64 and a 30-06. I dont think the recoil is different enough between the two to make a difference. If you dont think she could take the recoil of an '06, she probably wont like the 7x64.

For comparison, my 7 is a 24" Howa in a McMillan and the '06 is a 24" Ruger in a McMillan. Scopes are both 3.5x10x40's. They are probably both very similar in weight. The 7 shoots 140's jsut below 3000 and the '06 shoots 165's at 2800ish.

I shoot all three cartridges, and like them all. NO bad choices for your intended use if effect on game is the only criteria.

The BC Bison hunting regs show a minimum of
"a centrefire rifle and ammunition constructed with a 175 grain or larger bullet which retains 2 712 joules (2 000 foot pounds) or more energy at 100 metres"

So any of your choices will be legal, and effective, but a couple of factors put the 30-06 ahead of the other two.

The 7x64 is very very similar in field performance to her 6.5, just not a big enough step up in bone breaking power to make the move worthwhile IMHO. And it's a good thing that you handload, because Norma, for instance does not load a bullet heavier than 170 grains. I love the cartridge, but it just doesn't give her much advantage with bears or bison.

The 8x57IS is good and a functional equivalent to the 30-06 in nearly all respects. It is a fun cartridge too and a little different than the common stuff used by most. You would have to avoid any American made factory loads and American data, because 8x57 "Mauser" SAAMI data and loads are low powered and intended to allow interchangeability in the old & obsolete 8x57I ( .318" dia.) rifles. CIP data and factory loads from Europe are the only loads worth considering. She could use SAAMI low pressure loads for practise and deer hunting I suppose.

Or just get her a 30-06. Full power loads are adequate for bison, and it is easy enough to handload or buy light loads for deer and practise. A lady friend of mine recently purchased a Tikka T3 light 30-06 which I set up and sighted in for her. Very accurate, easy to handle, but recoil was a tiny bit sharp. You can't get more power for nothing.

Good luck and happy hunting!

Of the two choices you list, and considering the possibility of use against big bears, I would choose the 8x57 any day of the week (and twice on Sunday). Loaded to its potential with an appropriate bullet, it gives up nothing to the .30/06. It is also just different enough to be cool.

I would agree with castnblast...

What about some 160gr RN bullets out of the 6.5x55? I love the 160gr RN out of the 6.5mm.

Buying new guns is fun and exciting and I would jump on the 06 if pushed. However, more serious range time with a few hundred rounds to get her(and you) up to speed on proper bullet placement under time/pressure with the rifle she has now would go a lot further in the bear defense dept. than starting over with a new gun.

Working your bolt smooth and fast, with a clean trigger press under pressure, while hitting your target where it counts does a lot more in self preservation(and confidence) than slinging heavier bullets when possibly cringing at the increased recoil.

If she can handle 06 as well as the 6.5 swede by making the hits when and where they count, great, but that fact should be proven at the range first before hitting bear country.

Like Sakohunter264 said, a heavy 6.5 bullet like the woodleigh's, nosler partitions etc. would do the deed when put in the right spot. Shelton et al proved that more than a few times.

I haven't hunted dangerous game, but I have to ask if heavy bullets are really necessary when you have monometal bullets like Barnes TSX.

I think I'd just stick something like a 140gr TSX (or whatever they have in that range) in the 6.5x55 and not worry about it.

Ok, I see your delima, it's a legal thing.

If you are a rifle looney I'd suggest a 280AI for your beautiful bride. It's similar to the .270 she's comfortable with, has good factory 175gr bullets available (like the 175gr partition for Bison), and is not hampered by anemic load data. Your choice of a good 140-150gr bullet would make a nice reasonable recoil general purpose load for her to pair with the 175gr load.

Of course, the simplest solution would be 30.06.

There is a very good article in the latest Field & Stream called, "Dinner Bell Grizzlies." Well worth the time to read. Makes it easy to understand part of your problem.
The lightweight rifle is also something to consider but if time permits I would consider the 30-06 above the other cartridges. First would be the availability of ammo. The 30-06 is probably going to be easier to find at some backwoods store. Take the time for the wife to shoot the rifle with comfort using lighter loads and working up to a proper weight bullet for bear problems. The 180 gr. Nosler at top level velocity should work just fine although personally I would use the 200 gr. Partition for the potentially better penetration. Replace the factory recoil pad with a Pachmeyr Decelerator. They really do work. If you go to the Nosler forum, school down to the published load data, then check out some of what relied 17 does in the old 06. I'll be playing with some of that stuff and the Nosler 180 gr. Partition in the very near future.
I know that most US made 8x57 is pretty darn wimpy so it would have to be a strictly reloading proposition. A 200 gr. load moving out at a decent velocity would definitely get a bear or bison's attention. Never played with a 7x64 but have done some work with my .280 Rem. Recoil with 175 gr. bullets wan't all that bad but the rifle is very heavy for a sporter running close to 10 or 11 pounds ready to hunt. Gunsmith decided to use a barrel as big as a telephone pole. Beautiful rifle but needs a set of wheels.
Paul B.

Castnblast is right, a 175 gr minimum and 2000 ft lbs at 100 yards for Bison what the law says. A 7mm-08 or 7x57 would be legal along with the 180 gr Woodleigh in a 270 Win.

I'm still wondering about the difference in wound channels using Partitions between the 3 rounds, 175 gr 7x64, 180 gr 30-06 and 200 gr 8x57. There may me no real difference maybe. Part of the reason I have been leaning towards the 7x64 is there are some really good lighter weight hunting bullets to use when bears aren't an issue.

Bigger bullets make bigger wound channels.

If recoil is an issue, have you cnsidered a 308?

Yes actually I have, good choice as well.

gerrygoat,

I dunno if a muzzle brake might be considered (or even be legal), but it might help. I am not crazy about them myself, but my wife started suffering from recoil headaches s few years ago. Before then she had no problem using a light .30-06 with stout 180-grain handloads, but that definitely changed.

Since then we have experimented enough with both rifles and shotgun to know what her limits are--around 100-grain bullets in a light .243 Winchester or .257 Roberts, or loads of similar recoil in a light 28-gauge double or heavier semiauto. To tell the truth, she isn't all that handicapped with those limits, having taken cow elk and Canada geese handily since.

But Eileen also has a very nice .308 Winchester on a Kimber 84 action with a custom-fit fancy walnut stock that weighs only 6-3/4 pounds with a 3.5-10x40 Leupold. We experimented with various lighter loads but didn't find a satisfactory solution, for various reasons. She wanted to keep using the rifle, because it fits her so well, and she's found a little more punch helpful on some animals. And aside from the possibility of a really big bull elk, we have plenty of grizzlies around here these days that might get aggressive while hunting other stuff.

So she is getting the .308 fitted with a muzzle brake. She'll hunt with electronic muffs so she can hear, but won't have to worry about headaches. We considered a suppressor (now legal in Montana for big game) but she doesn't want to pack that much more weight, and likes the balance of the rifle just the way it is. A thin brake won't change that.

Not saying a braked .308 (or whatever) is the solution for everybody, but over the past few years I've

Thanks to all those who responded, even the ones that didn't read the original post lol.

John, a muzzle brake is legal here but I really don't want to go there unless it is absolutely necessary as in the case with your wife. I have read good things about the Airtech Limbsaver pads and would go that route first.

We did some shooting this afternoon in preparation for a deer hunting trip starting Thursday and she did well again with her 6.5x55 with some full power 120 and 140 gr loads so I'm sure she can handle something a little heavier for certain hunts.

I know you have done some extensive bullet testing is there really much difference between the different bullets I mentioned? (Partitions in 7mm 160 and 175's, 308 180's and 8mm 200's) I would guess there isn't much difference.

Ironically we also have a 28 gauge for her as well and she handles it well, good to hear the non toxic loads do well on geese.

There may be a major difference in the Partitions you list, but I'd hate to call it.

I don't know about anyone else, but this has put an itch inside my brain that won't go away...

270 Winchesters are generally not 'twisted' for the long heavy bullets so accuracy may suffer. Also, cartridges based on the '06 cases require ~25% more powder than those based on the 308 case, powder charge weighs heavily in the recoil formula.
So, a 7mm-08 which is a modern day equivalent to the 7x57, may be worth a look.
Also, a clamp on brake may be worth it on any caliber. I have one on one of my Tikkas and it performs very well, great recoil reduction, ability to neutralize muzzle torque along with Tikka accuracy puts this rifle into 1"@ 109yds/100m for 10 shots. here's a link to the one I have http://www.hss.net.au/index.php?cPath=118 it showed up in ~10 days. The Tikka is metric and so are these so there will be a size that suits.
I haven't noticed any significant increase in noise.

That article was in Sports Afield. A much better publication than F&S...

I have a old 98 military rifle and have come to enjoy the 8x57. The factory loads are pretty mild but plenty for general hunting of deer sized game. Then if you choose you can reload it to levels that are on par with the 308 and 30-06. Of course you can load either of those rounds down just as easily.

I hope you are able to pick one Gerry. I think the old 8x57 is calling your name though. The data appears to be pretty mild and I know it can be pumped up pretty decently as well. An 8x57 in a modern rifle would be cool..

Yeah, My bad. Typical old geezer's brain fart. Still a good article though.
Paul B.

I have NOT read any replies so here goes.

From your list -

1. 7X64--(280 Rem) I know, not exact.

2. 06

3. 8X57 ?? or last.

Gerry, I would find her a Tikka 338 Federal, have your pad installed and let her shoot 180's at 2800 or 200's at 2700. I'm not a woman but that gun really doesn't kick that much w/the Limbsaver. Perfect for mule deer, elk, moose and meets the Bison requirements. Even loaded down to 2500-2550fps either of the 180, 200 or 210 partition would be perfect medicine against bears. I'd stick w/a straight 200gr bullet across the board myself cause I think that's the best bullet for the 338F. Hornady, Speer, Fusion, but Nosler's 200gr BT w/the beefed up jacket would for me be just about perfect. If you want to stick w/the partition find a good load w/the 210gr at 2500fps and she'd be good to go and as a husband I would feel safe w/that load in my wife's arms. powdr

If you want to keep recoil down one possibility is a .308 loaded with 165/168 TTSX. You would get plenty of penetration at a lower level of recoil. You could always load 180 grain bullets if you wanted to hunt bison.

Gerry,

im not a gunwriter nor a BC resident but i will add my two cents from the north ...


except the legal thing for bison i do not think there is that much difference between the 7x64 and the 6.5x55.

they northern explorers used a lot the 6.5x55 with 160 gr rn.

i think with the conditions explained i will go with the 8x57js and maybe starting low load to help your wife shooting it before getting the better load.

a PAST recoil shield can help her on that too.

Did you ever think about a 9.3x62 with load development?

all the best.

Phil

Love the Brenekee.
Ballistic twin of the 280 handloaded.
Try the SB SPCE.