Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Bullet selection

My wife is hunting cow elk with a 270 win. should I load a 150gr nosler partion or 140gr hornady btsp?.

Yes, Action, yes you should. Oh, you mean which? Either/or are fine elk bullets. Pick the one that shoots best. The 140's will fly flatter. The Partitions will cost more, and will guarantee an exit on anything even remotely broadside. Both will do the job well for elk. My choice would be the Hornadys, because I'm cheap, and they are good bullets.

150gr Nosler partition, and 57-58gr of H4831.

I've shot a lot of elk with a 270. I mainly used Speers but I think their quality has slipped. Partitions are very good but I get better accuracy with Sierra SPT's.

Both good bullets and either will get the job done. 150 PT is the classic 270 elk load.

The one elk I shot with my .270 was with an SST 140.. Broadside about 250 or so, the bullet exited, the cow ran quite a distance, I am guess a couple hundred yards.. Open country so it didn't matter..

We have shot many elk with cup and core bullets and some with Nosler Partition.. If I am not hunting an open country unit, I prefer the Nosler..

I agree on the "yes", I think he should...

I would definitely use the 140 hornady's but the 15o partition be a hard one to walk away from as well. I guess it comes down to which one shoots the best.

The Partition, hands down........


Casey

Either will work fine. Like stated already partition will exit. My last two elk were with a 270 win, both bulls. One was with a 130 gr partition the other with a 150 gr Remington factory load. At 200 yards the 130gr partition shot through the elk's chest and harvested the elk no problems. See which one shoots the best and go with confidence.

Never understood the cost argument for a hunting bullet. The bullet is the cheapest thing on your hunt. Gas costs more, food, clothing, tag, every single piece of gear... why fuss over the cost of a bullet?

Partition

So, by your logic, you must go out of your way to find the gas station charging the most for gas, and fill up your vehicle there. Good job?

It's not 1 or 2 bullets I may shoot while hunting, it's the 100's I shoot for practice that gets expensive. I've shot a lot of elk with cup & core bullets with excellent results. I couldn't see any practical difference in killing power between Speer Hotcores and Partitions and the Speers were more accurate. I'm shooting a 30-06 now and I find that while Partitions are quite accurate, the Sierra SPT's are more so. I haven't shot an elk yet with the Sierra's, though, to test penetration.

I've always had good results with Partitions and have found that they are more accurate when they have Spitzer points.

KC

You mean as opposed to the Protected Point?


Casey

Partition

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion, it makes no sense. The only way your logic makes sense is if I were to skip a store that sells Partitions for $25 a box and bought the exact same Partitions from a different store for $35 a box (dollar amounts just for example). Good job on your logic.

What I'm talking about is two different products, not the same product at a different price, like your logic states.


To put it simply, how much do you spend on an elk hunting season? Anywhere from $50 if it is in your back yard to up to or beyond $10,000? What is the point on going cheap on a bullet to save money? Yeah, that $0.30 cents you saved sure made a difference. Good job? But in all reality you don't just shoot one, but how about a $27 box of bullets (100ct) vs $33 box (50ct)? And assume you shot 50 before the season. You saved $20 total in bullets. Big deal. I'd take the premium over the standard on elk - not for how it flies but what it does to the elk.

How about this logic: If for the conditions that I hunt (animal size, range, impact velocity, etc) premium bullets offer no advantage over standard cup and core bullets, why should I pay a premium for something I don't need?

By the same logic,my pickup runs fine on standard unleaded, why would I pay for higher octane gasoline.

Thanks for mirroring my point exactly. You didn't present an argument, or even refute mine. The bullets are not the cheapest thing on the hunt. You don't buy and use one. It is a false argument used as a sales pitch to sell "premium" bullets.

If the cheaper bullet carries more energy, has a flatter trajectory, bucks the wind better, and kills just as well, advocating for the more expensive "premium" is actually worse than shopping around for the most expensive gas.

That makes perfect sense. For me with elk I'd go with a premium vs cup and core because I'd rather prepare for the worst case shot. But if it were a smaller animal and not at a super high impact velocity, doesn't matter so much.

Very underwhelmed with 7mm 162g Hornady BTSP on elk and haven't used them since.

I'd go with the Partition by a mile as long as it shoots half-way decent. If it didn't I'd get an AccuBond, TTSX, Scirocco II, North Fork or Grand Slam long before I'd use a BTSP.

Lots of bullets will work once in awhile.
Shot a Partition, you won't ever regret it!

when I was a kid, I was hunting whitetail with my trusty M70 push feed .243 stoked with cheapo Sierra green box bullets, a combination that had never failed me. this particular day, I stumbled across a 450# black bear at spitting distance that I had to pound to the ground with said combination.

i had to reload in the middle of the rodeo, and I've been constantly looking for the 'best' not the 'cheapest' bullets since.

I can't speak for anyone else but I don't worry about just how accurate a bullet is for particular hunting rifle. You can have a rifle that shoots a premium bullet into .50" all day long from the bench. Guess what? There ain't any benches out in the boonies. nYou'd probably do just as good with a rifle that shoots 1.50" consistently off the bench to at least 300 yards and more. As far as practice goes, find a bullet that shoots as close as possible to your premium hunting bullet and practice with that. AS the .270 is the cartridge in question I'll use that. One of my pet deer and antelope loads shoots the 150 gr. Sierra Game King from a 24" Winchester M70 XTR into .50 to .75" groups. I use it for deer and antelope. I can use the exact same charge of powder, brass and primer and shoot the 150 gr. Nobler Partition into literally the same group. Doing a mix and match, the Sierra vs the Nosler the composite groups was one inch. I did the practice with the Sierras and did the hunt with the Nosler.
Want another? I shoot the 180 gr. Sierra Pro-Hunter spitzer for practice and the 180 gr. Nobler Partition as my hunting load. Shooting three rounds each at the same target gave a group about one inch or a hair larger. (1.10") I do a short practice session with the premium bullet just before the hunt just to be sure everything is working as it should and one test group in the area of the hunt just in case colder temps might make a change.
Paul B.

Quite commendable......

a [bleep] shot is a [bleep] shot not even the best bullets out their are going to make up for a "worse case shot scenarios" I have a buddy that killed a 9 foot bear on Kodiak using ... Drum roll please... 225gr hornady interlocks. For most folks hunting for bears on Kodiak is a life long dream anyhow one shot one dead ass bear... Don't get me wrong I like partitions but I like accubonds even more but if the hornady, speer will shoot better than any of those then I will use regular old hornady's or speers.

and a crap bullet can turn even a perfect shot into a rodeo

HuntnShoot –

Your conclusion is illogical. Choosing a more expensive bullet makes sense only if it provides an advantage. Paying more for an item that provides no advantage is just foolish.

Last Sunday I got back from a 3-day Wyoming antelope hunt. Here is a quick rundown of my costs:
$1.39 Bullets (Barnes 140g TTSX, Qty 2)
$12.50 Conservation Stamp
$39.00 License and application fee
$113.28 Food
$117.66 Fuel
$170.00 Processing
$421.20 Lodging
==============================
$875.03 Total

Granted, I could have reduced the hunt cost by about $0.80 by handloading Hornady 139g SST bullets or Remington Core-Lokt or other cup-and-core bullets, but that cost “saving” would be far more than offset by the added expense of buying a second bullet type and the time and expense of developing a second load.

For a different perspective, I could shoot factory ammo. I was using a .280 Remington with 140g TTSX bullets. By comparison, using today’s midwayusa.com’s standard prices:

$18.54 140g TTSX handloads
$30.40 Hornady 139g SST
$30.49 Federal 140g Spitzer Boat-Tail Fusion
$30.99 Federal 150g Power-Shok
$33.99 Remington 140g Core-Lokt
$43.49 Barnes 140g TTSX VOR-TX

So even if using factory ammo (Barnes VOR-TX vs Hornady SST) the most I could have saved would have been less than $1.31. (Whoopee, break out the champagne!)

OK, I was hunting antelope, and doe antelope at that. Where is the advantage of shooting a bullet like the TTSX (or AB, the other hunting bullet I use in that rifle), when just about any bullet will do for even the largest antelope? Just this – the rifle will be used for elk as well and the bullets I use are selected with that in mind. Using the same load for everything reduces costs and increases my familiarity with those loads.

If I could get the same advantages out of cup-and-core bullets for less money, I would be happy to do so. Those advantages include excellent accuracy, reliable but controlled expansion over a wide range of velocities and high weight retention for deep penetration. TTSX, for example, have been very accurate in every rifle I have tried them in and most animals, including elk, have either dropped straight-down or taken no more than a few steps before dropping. I trust them to reach the vitals from almost any angle, even on elk, as they have proven they can provide exit holes even when shooting lengthwise through mule deer.

The only real downside would be if the premium bullets I select (mostly Barnes TTSX, Nosler AB and North Fork SS) performed worse than cheaper alternatives, but I have seen no evidence of that, even on light animals like antelope and coyotes. My hunting partners and I have yet to recover a TTSX rom any animal and in the years we have been using TTSX we have seen no indications of failure to expand, bullets coming apart or failure to penetrate. By contrast, I have seen multiple instances where standard cup-and-core bullets failed to perform as I want.

While premium bullets will not always provide better results (DRT is DRT regardless of the bullet used), I am also well aware that things do not always go as planned. If an animal takes off after the first shot I want a bullet in the chamber that provides the best chance of reaching the vitals when all I can see is the back end of the animal as it heads away. For that I will gladly pay a little extra for my hunting loads. The $0.80 I could have saved on this trip by shooting the Remington Core-Lokt or Hornady SST handloads instead of Barnes TTSX would have been less than 1/10 of 1% of the overall expenses (0.091%).

Bullets may or may not be the least expensive part of a hunt but their cost is minimal compared to the total cost of my hunts. For myself and many others the little added insurance that premium bullets can provide is worth the slight extra cost.

Even the most expensive ones "fail" sometimes. Most of the "failures" I hear about are largely in people's minds. And there are no guarantees from bullet makers when buying premiums. I like Partitions, and I like "crap" Hornady bullets. When Hornadys shoot better, I hunt them.

Feel free to pay more for less. What I don't understand is guys who buy some smoking magnum and then shoot golf ball BC bullets. Striking velocity is the essential thing. Muzzle velocity is only relevant for bragging.

The only thing better than a "which bullet for elk" thread is a "which cartridge for elk" thread.

I thought that had been settled. A tie between 300 WBY, 223 AI.

HuntnShoot-

The North Fork SS I use in several rifles (.257 Roberts, .280 Rem, 7mm RM, .30-06, .300WM, .45-70) don’t have the greatest B.C. but they perform great, providing exactly what I want in terminal performance. When shot from my magnums they shoot flatter and faster, not much different than inferior bullets with higher B.C. values shot from my non-magnums. Either way, magnum or not, they are reliably consistent performers, which is what I value most in my bullets.

Striking velocity is not the “essential thing”, as you claim, it is “one of the things”. Bullets can fail to expand if velocity is too slow and fail to hold together if it is too high. Both constitute failures to my way of thinking. The premiums I use have worked fine at low velocities yet hold together better than standard cup-and-core bullets at much higher velocities. Case in point were the two antelope we took this last weekend with TTSX, a 100g from my .257 Roberts (310 yards, ~2400fps striking velocity) and a 140g TTSX from my .280 Remington (373 yards, ~2075fps striking velocity). Both shots resulted in exits with signs of good expansion. Although I’ve lost petals from TTSX when shooting into water jugs at over 3,000fps from a range of a few feet, the only time I have had them disintegrate was when shooting steel, and even then they made a big pocket. By contrast, I’ve had cup-and-core bullets come apart in in the water test and barely dent the steel before flying to pieces.

I agree there are no guarantees from bullet makers when buying “premium” bullets. Like cup-and-core bullets, some have proven to reliably meet my performance exportations while I won’t even consider others due to their construction and performance claims by the manufacturer (read “Berger VLD” for one).

I disagree, however, that when using the premiums of my choice, that I’m paying “more for less”. These include Barnes TTSX, Nosler Accubond, North Fork SS, Swift A-Frame and Scirocco II and, while I no longer use them, Speer Grand Slam. While I’ve rarely needed the additional penetration capability that the premiums I use can offer, it has been there when needed.

just because no bullet is guaranteed does not make them all equal.

partition

HuntnShoot -

Most if not all bullet failures " are largely in people's minds" because failure is a qualitative assessment of bullet performance. What one person considers a "failure" would often leave other's scratching their heads and wondering why, when they would consider the same performance quite acceptable.

I have to agree with toad - a lack of a guarantee means exactly nothing. Did your favorite rifle come with a guarantee that it would like a particular load? Do your favorite factory loads (or even handloads) come with a performance guarantee?

Coyote Hunter, you've given me a lot to consider and respond to. I can't really see where you are coming from in some regards, because it seems to me that you approach bullets with the idea that tougher is better. This perspective is not true, and there is much evidence to the contrary, as far as speed of kill.

Tougher bullets, such as those you name, as a group also have poor BC, which matters if your shots get long (>300yds). An experience I had demonstrates this, as well as my point that MV is irrelevant, and that impact velocity is THE thing: I was out shooting and a guy pulled up and watched me wrapping up. I started BS'ing with him about the upcoming elk hunt. He had a 300 RUM and factory ammo that he was going to use. I talked to him of my 30-06 and 185gr Berger handloads. He mentioned the ability to make a 300yd shot with his RUM, scoffing at my 30-06. I told him that my '06 has a 300yd MPBR, and that it catches up to and begins to pass his chosen ammo before 400 yds. He seemed incredulous. I explained the numbers to him. He still didn't see it. We ended the conversation talking about accuracy. Seems he was able to shoot about 3" groups at 100 with the RUM, and was pretty proud of that. He said the recoil was pretty rough.

There is always the chance of bumping elk up close where I have hunted the last 15 years. Most shots, however have been 400+yds. Should I get a RUM then, and shoot A-Frames, so I can get about the same impact velocity as I get with a 30-06 and Bergers? As an aside, I've not ever caught one. Not in deer, not in elk. Not in steeply quartering impacts. Broken bones, broad wound channels, exits. I've also tried other bullets, and been with guys who use still other bullets. Rodeos have always come with poor hits, regardless of the bullet/ammo.

You seem to claim that only certain bullets should be considered hunting bullets, i.e., the tough ones. And that, I guess, all those other bullet makers are what, lying? Committing some kind of fraud? No, bullets aren't all the same; but that doesn't mean that some don't work because they don't fit your criteria.

I will tell you again: impact speed is THE thing when talking bullet performance. For your hunting, your choices obviously work well. There are other factors than the ones you use to judge bullets. I know this because you don't even consider the ones that weigh most for me, including price.

Confidence, a positive attitude, familiarity with all aspects of all our equipment, getting into the elk. An abbreviated list. Bring your 'A' game!

I am in the bullet cost is trivial camp!
I have shot enough SSTs to learn I might not be learning as much by shooting a handful more a year, then the taxing effects on my brass 'cost' .

BTs to ABs here. (They shoot the same, same load 65 grains of H4831-sc seated a tad off the rifling)
They just plain shoot well for me. That's confidence.

Any bullet that can match or beat any Noslers performance is bringing your 'A' game!

I don't use mono copper bullets for reasons not given here, but what has served me well for many years is using heavy for caliber bullets for larger game like elk. 200-220 gr in my .06 for example.

Pure lead bullets in a 50 caliber ML will kill elk and for that matter moose quite well if you realize you have a distance limitation.

Matching the bullet to the parameters it was designed for velocity wise goes along ways in respect to bullet performance, but nothing will fix poor bullet placement

HuntnShoot -

You misinterpret what I think about bullets. Tougher is not always better. If it was I would be shooting only non-expanding, copper-jacketed steel-core spitzer bullets. Instead I like bullets that expand fairly easily but are 'tough' when it comes to holding together. The North Fork SS, Barnes TTSX, Nosler AccuBond and Swift A-Frame all fit into this category and have performed very well at ranges near and far.

"Poor" B.C.? Neither the AccuBond nor the TTSX I use have what I consider "poor" B.C. values, although you can easily find bullets with higher values, including their "Long Range" brethren. The North Fork I use include a 7mm/140g (a pointier design Mike Brady never made generally available), 'standard' .308"/165g and .308"/180g SS and a .458"/350g FP. The B.C. for all of them, and the .257"/120g A-Frame I use, is more than high enough for my purposes which average under 300 yards but has stretched to 487 yards. Several years ago I took my .300WM/180g Barnes MRX (predecessor to the TTSX) and a .30-06/150g Nosler BT to the range for a final scope check. The last thing I did was try for clay pigeons on the 600 yard berm. "Poor" B.C. values or not, I was able to hit two pigeons with a total of five shots, three with one rifle and two with the other.

The "poor" B.C. of the .284"/140g TTSX (.412) was quite good enough for me to take my antelope last weekend with my .280 Remington at 373 lasered yards, my 4th longest shot ever. Calculated impact velocity was only 2078fps. (The others used a Nosler AccuBond at 487 yards and both a Barnes MRX and North Fork SS at 400 yards.)

Nowhere have I ever claimed that "only certain bullets should be considered hunting bullets". While my choices are limited to just a few, based on a variety of factors, I've often stated other people are free to use whatever they choose. If Berger bullets work for you, by all means use them. Some people like A-MAX as hunting bullets but I've seen first-hand the excessive damage these thin-skinned bullets can do at 30-06 velocities. While I use some cup-and-core bullets they only get used at low velocities. None of the premium bullets I use and have recovered have shown any signs of failure to expand or coming apart, regardless of the range used.

Most bullets will work most of the time, something I stated rather often. It is for those times when things go wrong that I'm willing to invest a bit more in my bullets and when I've needed deep penetration the bullets I use have delivered. If you have never had a Berger stop or come apart your experience is very different from what other people have experienced and Berger advertises , to wit:



Is Berger lying? Thanks, but when I've possibly wounded an animal and all I have is a hind quarter shot as it flees, I don't want a bullet that performs as Berger advertises in my chamber.

The Hornady 162g InterLock BTSP I used on my first elk centered a near rib, missed or barely nicked the far ribs and stopped under the hide. The next year I switched to Speer 160g Grand Slam bullets and it was 20 years before I recovered one. That one destroyed both shoulders of a 5x5 bull elk yet still retained about 50% more weight than the Hornady InterLock all those years before. Both shots were broadsides at about the same range, 100-110 yards. Even with a "poor" B.C. of 0.387 the Speer Grand Slam also made my 5th longest shot (350 yards) with ease and the 6x5 bull never took a step.

Velocity is not "THE thing" I consider most important and in fact falls well behind accuracy and bullet performance. The North Fork 350g FP I use in my .45-70 has an estimated B.C. of 0.232 and I launch it at a 2147fps. At 213 yards retained velocity is about 1515fps, but that was enough to drop a 6x6 bull elk in its tracks and I wouldn't hesitate to use them at 300 yards (1313fps, -24"), which would be a much longer shot than my average shot range, even with my bolt rifles. That same .45-70 will drive 350g hardcast (1097fps at the muzzle) through 12 one-gallon water jugs. I wouldn't want to shoot an elk broadside with that load if another elk was standing behind it as I would have some explaining to do to Parks and Wildlife officers.

We obviously disagree on what the important characteristics are for a hunting bullet. Price barely enters into the picture for me as I don't take enough shots while hunting for them to be a major expense, and far from it. Accuracy with reliable and consistent performance over a wide range of impact velocities counts for much more in my book.

This stuff gets comical.

Yup.

[quote=antelope_sniper]150gr Nosler partition, and 57-58gr of H4831. [/quote

+1

Sounds to me like you do the same thing I (and I think a lot of others) do – It is pretty common for me to substitute loads with inexpensive cup-and-core bullets for my hunting loads when practicing at the range. So long as they shoot close to the same point of aim it isn’t a problem but I always take a few shots with the hunting loads just before going afield, mostly to verify scope adjustment with the hunting loads.

While there aren’t any benches out in the field, there are improvised shooting rests that can provide very stable shooting platforms. Over the years I have used my pack from a prone position, bipods attached to the rifle, stumps, rocks, hay bales, tree limbs, tree trunks, fence posts and pretty much anything I could find that would improve stability for the shot. You make a good point, though – most of the time the difference between a .5” and 1.5” load won’t make any difference in the field. At 300 yards the 1.5” load will have an error radius of 2-1/4”compared to .75” for the .5” load. While that can make a difference in the prairie dog villages a 1.5” difference is not very significant when shooting antelope or larger.

Still, given two loads with my preferred bullets, I’ll take the one that shoots to .5” rather than the one that shoots to 1.5”, for the same reason I prefer certain bullets – they don’t perform any worse in the field and while there is no guarantee they WILL make a difference the possibility exists that they MIGHT make a difference. The same reasoning goes into choosing a lot of the gear I take hunting, like chains for all four tires instead of just two, two rubber chain tensioners for each tire plus spares, a chain repair kit, a second rifle, a basic tool kit, a couple of tow chains, a come-along, jumper cables, extra batteries, an extra pair of boots and other stuff. While most of it is not needed in any particular year, all of it has been needed at one time or another and some multiple times. Last night I bought 4 new A/T tires with aggressive tread for this year’s elk hunts. While I could probably have made it through hunting season and the winter snow and ice with the ones I had, they were getting worn and deeper tread MIGHT keep me from getting stuck or going off the road. It is kind of like buying fire insurance for your home – while you hope you never need it, it can make a big difference in your situation if your house burns.

150 Partition is what I'd use.

Having been a Nosler(premium bullet) internet whore since having internet I have done an about face into reality.While the bullet is important,and it is I can only think years back when countless hunters and friends could not wait for the K-Mart hunting season specials where you could buy a box of ammo for $7-10 bucks and be on your way.

We found some worked better than others and Cor-Lokts was then and still today very effective as were the old bronze points and silver tips.Because of reloading laziness,I have been using 180 Core-lokts in my '06.I have not been disappointed.

Never been a fan of the Hornady bullets probably because i haven't used them much or seen them personally used as Hornady ammo wasn't a popular on the shelf choice in my region.Winchester and Remington were the bargains that worked.

After having shot my first big game with a 420 grain cast a while back, that you were supposed to be able to eat right up to the hole concept,my opinion has changed.That cast at a modest velocity out of my 45-70 did more meat damage than most bullets I have ever used.It hit a good bone and the inside looked like a grenade went off.

I have so many Noslers on hand to reload for a bunch of calibers and if I had it to do over, I would probably just buy over the shelf Core-lokts and forget it and save a bunch of money and time.They have always done there job in my case since I first started using them to many years ago..

Contrary to just about every thing I have ever posted on the internet previously about bullets,realistically the most game I have seen killed and killed msyself, has been with non-premium bullets.

Bullet failure when an animal is dead is non-existent,the bullet kilt the game so it did it's job!

JMO

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

Did somebody get into your box again?

Were not taking questions at this time..

All control of this thread has been lost. TFF

They always expand uncontrollably.

Not exactly. Bullet failure when the animal is dead is luck. Far more often the animal be wounded. You might get a 2d shot but many escape to die somewhere else.

Huh? What does a wounded animal that escapes have to do with an animal that's dead? Plus, if the animal gets away, how do you know whether the bullet performed or didn't perform?

I think his point was, lots of guys talk a bout "bullet failure" with a one-shot kill. They use different criteria for "failure," like low retained weight, jacket separation, or even no exit wound. Which gets to the question, what is the bullet designed to do? Kill the animal, or look pretty?

Exactly!

Having used the .270 Win for the majority of my hunting days,I can say with certainty in my personal experiences that premium bullets can and do fail in smaller calibers due to there controlled expansion or not expanding at all such as some have seen with the Barnes and I have with the Fail Safe in the .270.

An old cheapy like a Core-Lokt would have worked much better than the so called super premium..One reason after using different premium bullets I chose the Nosler as a premium is the so called two bullet effect where it sometimes looses the front section in the animal, giving a better and more harmonious outcome!Probably the best elk kill'n bullet I have seen in my way to many years waking up, is the old Sierra bullet.Far from a premium in todays terms but what a job it did out of the .270 Win if you put it where it belonged.

Not knocking premium bullets, just saying that alot of the time the old cup and core bullets do a better job at kill'n.

Take the Berger..Please .....Premium or not?

Log smoker I see you are giving advice again.

Why don't you stick to thing you know and give us a blue tarp tutorial.

In the meantime, try to stay out of jail.

Belly rot I see your on topic again.

Why don't you stick to posting those awesome outdoor photos of your personal experiences.

In the meantime, try to get an apartment out of your mom's basement.

How childish is this chit..... Grow up....

yep

here is a failed bullet from a dead animal.

the elk was wounded by a hunter with the Core-Loss, then killed by his guide (me) with the Partition.

Never fell for the old saw that "the animal was dead, therefore the bullet didn't fail".

Better to think in terms of it performing as well as it needed to.....that time.

But that doesn't mean it was great performance, either.Never saw the point in seeking the lowest levels in terminal performance and calling it "good".

13" of penetration in a soft tissue is nothing to write home about. But it does work on small stuff and rib shots.There's better ways to fly when it comes to shooting animals.

Toad's photo speaks volumes, and it has nothing to do with "pretty" and photo ops. It's all mechanics.

To my way of thinking, many a bullet has failed and the animal graciously died anyway.

I never fell for the old saw that you need "premium" bullets to kill stuff. Every bullet fails at one time or another, and a photo of a sample of one isn't something to necessarily hang your hat on.

Like most folks I started with corelockts after one penciled through a doe at 60 yards I switched to the brand new ballistic tips and started reloading. So far I've used NBT's, accubond, partitions, and Barnes TTSX on elk. The ballistic tip that turned into shrapnel on a big bull convinced me to go with the Barnes. My sample size is not scientific evidence but I'm convinced that on an animal that can go over 800 lbs. like a Rocky Mtn elk, that tougher bullets that can break bone and penetrate a long way are worth a premium of a few extra dollars.

I'd be content with most bullets for deer sized game and really prefer the BT for that DRT factor but elk are a different ballgame. We tend to hunt within a couple of hundred yards of a public / private boundary so stopping them quickly is important to me and the TTSX has done that in my experience better than any other bullet.

I guess we can guess who wrote this one:

I'm always interested to hear first-hand accounts. Which ballistic tip was it that turned to shrapnel? Did you recover the bull, and how did he react to the shot?

I don't doubt this, and I don't doubt that toad and others have seen examples of bullets not doing what they're supposed to do. Human nature being what it is, when you see it with your own eyes, it leaves an impression. I had a friend show me a recovered TTSX from a big bull shot at 60 yards. It killed the bull because he drilled it through the heart, but the bullet looked like it was new, minus the tip.

That was enough to give me pause, but it doesn't mean the TTSX isn't a good bullet for elk.

I don't disagree with any of that and am not saying premium bullets are bad or any better or worse than some of the old standards not pushed above there intended velocity,basically factory velocities.

Core-Lokts can come apart and sometimes it a good thing if the bullet went where you wanted it to go.Noslers can also come apart or loose there front core,again a good thing if you put it where you wanted,Solid copper bullets can fail to expand and again,take the Berger bullet, OMG, but some very experienced elk hunters swear by them as some of the old timers swore by the Sierra bullet in the same manner...

All bullets,premium or standard can fail,whatever the definition of a bullet failing on game is.I have a cute little picture of a .375 260 grain Nosler Accubond and a .375 270 grain Core-Lokt both shot at factory type velocities and both dug out of the same target..The Core-Lokt,believe it or not was picture pufect,one you would want to show anyone while the Nosler,not so much!

And the search for the perfect bullet continues for some.

A few years back I tried the 140 grain nosler/winchester silver tips and 162 grain Amax with some reloads out of my 7RM on Pennsylvania whitetail deer. I harvested 3 deer that year, two with the ballistic tips and one with the Amax.

All three were DRT

The two does I shot with the Silver tips were blown to pieces and I caught alot of hell from my wife and father-in-law when we were butchering them on all the meat ruined

I got a buck with the Amax and i don't remember how that one looked I ended up butchering that one myself at our family camp at the time.

I've been using the gmx bullets ever since they came out in the 7mm-08 and Swede and all my kills have been DRT with them thus far as well.

My choices came down to not wanting the wife or little ones consuming all the lead fragments in the meat I was getting from the explosive like bullets and harvesting three deer a year.

I might have to try them again I guess for my own results out of the 08 and swede to see how bad they're there. I will never use them out of the 7 mag again though. The one doe I shot that year was on the run through a thicket and I hit it a little high and center. Looked like I hit it with a hand grenade is my father in laws exact words were. Literally blew intestines out the side in between softball size and basketball size hole.

No wonder you had to butcher the last one yourself. Your father in law probably said "screw you as he shook his head and walked away", "Next time buy a real bullet, like a damn Partition!!!!!!"... Is that kind of how it played out?

The ballistic tip that turned into shrapnel was a 150 grain 7mm RM with an MV of about 3000 fps on a 250 yard quartering away shot. It contacted 2 ribs and made a palm sized entry wound then the fragments pierced portions of the near side lung. The bright spray in the snow every 20yards apart at most was great the first 200 yards as he head toward the trail down the mountain. The next 300 yards after he crossed the trail had me doubting my marksmanship and wondering if this really was lung blood. When the trail quit a little shy of 600 Yards from bullet impact he was done and drained.

The entry was exactly where i had aimed trying to hit the off side shoulder. These weren't new bullets but shouldn't have been too old a lot either. Since my switch to ttsx i haven't found any bullets but I have found dead elk.

Thanks.

Was at the range yesterday with Daughter #1, who will be going on her first elk hunt, and settled on rifles and loads.

Daughter #1 will be using a .308 Win with a 130g TTSX starting out at 3010fps.

I had planned to use my .280 Rem with a 140g TTSX but after taking an antelope at 373 yards with it last week, that rifle will now be my backup, with a 2901fps 140g AccuBond load.

Primary rifle will be a stainless/boat paddle Ruger MKII .30-06 with a 150g AccuBond at 2991fps.

Still waiting for the blue tarp instructions. If I don't get an elk this fall I'm going to need something to photograph and tell people contains an elk quarter even though nobody can see it.

In the meantime, please tells us more about your vast experience with core loss ammunition and how great it is for dropping all of those imaginary elk you have killed inside of your head.

As soon as I post this imaginary comparison of the mighty Core-Lokt on the right and the two imaginary Nosler Accubonds why don't you show us ummm anything outdoor/hunting/shooting related instead of all talk and BS with nothing at all to show other than what a child you are for douching up threads with your off topic inferior complex.



Bellyjelly..Got anything at all to add to the topic of this thread?

Didn't think so!!!

As long as people are posting pictures of recovered bullets, here are a few of mine, recovered from animals, dirt, steel and water jugs.

A side note, over the years I've frequently been ridiculed for choosing premium bullets over standard cup-and-core construction because of their added expense. Often the people doing the ridiculing are sucking down crappy coffee while smoking a cancer stick. One was virtually addicted to soft and energy drinks and more than one has been borderline (or more) alcoholic. While I have an occasional glass of wine or a beer, I don't drink coffee, soft or energy drinks and I don't smoke. Nor do I chase other women or spend time in bars. My preference for premium bullets costs me far less than those addictions and habits. If you are one who is thinking about criticizing me for my choices and do any of these things, your criticism falls on deaf ears.

For that matter, if you shoot factory ammo my handloads with premium bullets often cost no more and often less than whatever ammo is on sale at your local Wally World. Be happy with what you shoot but once again any criticism of my choices will fall on deaf ears.


Every North Fork bullet I've recovered has looked like these, with the exception of the one I recovered from 200-yard steel (see below). Left to right:
30-06, 165 grain @ 2800fps, recovered from dirt
(500 yards, 145.0 grains retained weight)

.30-06, 165 grain @ 2800fps, recovered from second cow elk after breaking front leg and near and far ribs
(~25 yards, 133.2 grains retained weight)

7mm 140 grain @ 3200fps, recovered from buck mule deer after penetrating from right ham to sternum
(~150 yards, 131.2 grains retained weight)



Left to right again:
Hornady 162g InterLock (elk),less than 49% weight retention, hit just one rib of spike bull, broadside, about 110 yards
Speer 160g Grand Slam (elk), same presentation and range as InterLock above, destroyed both shoulders of 5x5 bull elk, over 70% weight retention
North Fork 165g (elk), Broke front leg and near and far rib
North Fork 350g (elk), obliterated sections of the near leg and rib, shattered a far rib
North Fork 180g (200 yard steel) Note that every other bullet I tried against that steel disintegrated. The Barnes X bullets made beautiful copper plated craters. The North Forks consistently made a crater and were caught inside it. This was the only one I could remove.




This photo speaks for itself. Note that due to an uncorrected copy/paste error made when creating the photo, the Sierra bullet is listed as an XTP. Obviously it is not. It is a GameKing. Hornady SST anyone?




From left to right:
4 jugs == Sierra 200g FP .375" @ 2390fps, 81% weight retention (left group of five, front row center) (Marlin 375, .375 Win)
6 jugs == Speer 300g Uni-Cor .458" @ 2247fps, 59.6% to 72.5% weight retention, 68.8% average (remainder of left group) (Marlin 1895, .45-70)
8 jugs == Speer 350g FP .458" @ 2147fps, 87.6% weight retention (Marlin 1895, .45-70)
6 jugs == North Fork 350g .458" @ 2189fps, 97.4% weight retention (Marlin 1895, .45-70)
9 jugs == Cast Performance 460g WFNGC .458" @ 1812fps, 76.5% weight retention (Marlin 1895, .45-70)
5 jugs == Hornady 220g FP .375" @2230fps, 65.7% weight retention (Marlin 375, .375 Win)
7 jugs == Barnes 180g MRX .308" @ 3100fps, 93.4% weight retention (Ruger MKII, .300 Win Mag)

How could the OP ask such an unreasonable question and narrow the choices to only two bullets given all the helpful advice he can expect from this august group of experts on anything hunting related and just about everything else. Any guesses how many times this question has been asked and the myriad ways it has been answered?

Just to stay on topic, I think she should shoot a 338 with 225 grain Hornadies.

..Your computer talks?

I'm glad you brought up the North Fork.I also have a bunch of them and they are tough.Trying to give Mike a hard time I shot everything I could think of trying to destroy the bullet..I couldn't do it and one in particular became a avatar.Photobucket is hard to get into anymore so I can't get at that one yet to post it.

Naw,sometimes we get carried away on the net with bullet talk and bashing.I have a ton of premium bullets around ready to reload.I just haven't reloaded in quite some time for my own personal reasons.

So with the new to me '06 with probably 200 180 grain Noslers on hand,I picked up a box of loaded 180 Core-Lokts..Brought back old memories from way back..Hey,they work and there cheap.Same with the .375 H&H..Picked up some Core-Lokts although I have a ton of Nosler Accubonds to be loaded..

If I was into hunting like I used to be,no doubt I would load up the premiums I have,but I'm not anymore.I just throw in a rifle when I go wood getting and if I see something,Bam..And the Core-Lokts do there job as would the Noslers or North Forks if I would get off my azz and start back reloading..Lost the lust for it after I lost my hunting buddy but it's a com'n back.

Always liked your recovered bullets and the penetration test you did and the occasional debates we had back when,CH.

Try a "Game Ear" for your deaf ears and trade that 7MM for some Core-Lokts plus a few bucks ofcourse!

Jayco's box out.

Nothing wrong with either of the OP's choices...either would be just fine on elk.

I'm a small bore aficionado but recently picked up 150 of the old style (amber colored plastic box) 200 grain .308 Grand Slams. They'll straight up knock an elk's dick in the dirt based on past experiences...

I'll be turning my .300 Win Mag into a .300 H&H soon as an elk slayer so I am saving them for that project. It's almost enough excitement for me to safe queen my 6mms and 6.5mms and go back to .30 cals...

T Inman, that project should be a good one.. I could do without my .300 Win.'s, but have a #1 in .300 H & H that is going to be my main rifle in a few years.. Figure, when I turn 70, it is time for a lighter rifle weight wise.. Looking forward to the .300 H & H project..

I meant to say couldn't do without my .300 Win.s.!! typo!!

Yes and I always tell them Nosler partition..... Generally 180 gr.... oh and 30-06 too...

Those Grand Slams should work great. I used them in my 7mm RM for 20+ years. Didn't recover one until the last year as they kept punching through. The one I recovered destroyed both shoulder joints of a 5x5 bull and still retained over 70% of its original weight. My hunting buddy still uses them in his 7mm RM, no complaints.

Good luck on your H&H conversion.

Trade the 7mm RM? That is heresy talk...

Anyone can post a picture of a bullet they shot into a dirt bank. Killing a critter is another matter entirely. I'll open the betting low...lets start with a cow and see if you can keep up.

Boy that's a new one.

I took a bull a week ago with a nosler 150 NBT at 80 yards. I was using a 280AI and pushing it at 3050 fps. had perfect performance, second shot went through off side shoulder leaving a 1" hole. it wasn't needed but he was still on his feet after walking 4 steps after the first shot, so I put another into him for good measure.

just goes to show that different things can happen with essentially the same load, regardless of the bullet make. I'm glad my experience was different from yours.

Well Trevor,I do not own a computer anymore,just android devices and they will not take me very far into my photobucket and my Toshiba chromebook will not copy links ..Infact,google chromebook issues on photobucket and you will get the drift.

Find me an imaginary fix to get me into photobucket(farther than a couple pages where it stops) and able to copy links with my chromebook.

That looks like a big, mature cow.

I slayed a 6x6 bull last Friday with a dreaded [gasp] AMAX out of my 6.5x284. DESTROYED the heart.

Damn target bullets.

Stunt shooter.

I know. I'm moving up to a ma deuce next year. The 3-4 steps that bull took was unacceptable.

Sub .30, target bullet, 4 steps?

Not possible.

Hell, it may have been 2 steps. I didn't bother to count. Heard the "thwak!" and the next thing I knew he stumbled and was on the ground.

Well I have to side with you colorado on the B-tips....

I have been a devout partition shooter for elk until the many credited accounts of how the B-tips really behave in game bigger than deer, so I decided to give'em a go on elk.... I am impressed to say the least.

Last night in the fleeting light of the evening a small bull exploded from a hedge of brush about 80 yards along a STEEP draw to join the small batch of cows I was watching in an opening with hopes a bull would do just what he did.

First bullet hit mid chest and sent steam an chunks of elk out the opposite side of the chest with an 1-1/2" exit hole and made him wobbly but still mobile. As he headed back toward the steep draw, a second B-tip BROKE his off side shoulder with a HARD angled last rib to shoulder shot that toppled him right at the crest of the draw, very dead. The load, 58.5 grains of H4831 with a m.v of 2850-ish from my 22 inch Ruger barrel... Thank you mule deer

I recovered the second bullet under the hide and the core fell out of the jacket as I did. Bullet failure, I think not

So,during what part of the dirt's death did the Nosler Accubond fail?

What it shows is that different things can happen with the same cup-and-core bullet under similar circumstances, not bullets of different make or construction. To me the difference in demonstrated performance suggests the bullet is bumping up against or exceeding the limits of its performance envelope, which is determined by its construction.

In 20+ years of my using 160g Speer Grand Slam bullets in my 7mm RM, none were recovered and none fragmented inside an animal. When I finally did recover one it had destroyed both shoulder joints of a 5x5 bull elk and stopped under the off-side hide, still in the bone but exposed with over 70% weight retention. In the 10 years or so I’ve been using Barnes MRX and TTXS bullets from .257”/100g to .308”/180g the story is the pretty much the same – no signs of fragmentation and none recovered, exits even when shooting lengthwise through mule deer, signs of good expansion every time and as many DRT as there were that took short walks with no long runs, at ranges from 20 yards to 400. (My antelope this year went maybe 35 yards, the longest any animal we’ve shot with the MRX or TTSX has gone. 140g TTTSX, 7mm RM, 373 yards.) North Fork bullets recovered from game, water and dirt have been remarkably consistent in appearance with excellent weight retention and good expansion even below 1800fps impact velocity in animals and about 1200fps in dirt.

If you go back to my post showing pictures of recovered bullets (https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/10556410/Re:_Bullet_selection#Post10556410), the second to last photo shows a pair of 225g Hornady SST bullets fired from my .338WM into water. One fragmented, the other did not but did lose its jacket. Penetration was 3 and 4 water jugs respectively. Like your example, this shows the same bullet can perform differently under nearly identical circumstances. Compare the SST bullets with the 225g AccuBond, which held together better and penetrated 6 jugs. Based on this evidence, I reserve the SST’s for practice and the AccuBond for hunting. Neither elk I’ve shot with my .338WM/225g AccuBond survived the experience and the wound tracks showed good expansion at ranges of 262 and 487 yards (calculated at about 2424fps and 2165 fps respectively).

Considering the choices offered by the OP (150g Nosler Partition or 140g Hornady BTSP) and my experience with a 7mm 162g Hornady BTSP (less than 48% weight retention at ~110 yards, see picture in post referenced above), I would strongly recommend the Partition. Elk aren’t that easy to come by and the consistent performance (good expansion and penetration) offered by Partitions would be cheap insurance.

Congrats on your bull. I was planning on using my virgin .280 Rem for my elk hunt this year but after taking an antelope with it a couple of weekends ago (140g TTSX) am going with a .30-06/150g Accubond with the no-longer-a-virgin .280 Rem/140g AccuBond as backup.