24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
-->
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,662
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,662
subtitled, "Why is our government complicit in killing our own Soldiers?"
link to story
Quote
A horrific news report from Afghanistan brings to light a wide problem afflicting the American and Israeli way of war—but, no, it is not what you think.

Washington faces perpetual allegations of “war crimes” for its military conduct in Afghanistan, and Israel the same in Gaza. We’re asked to believe that U.S. and Israeli forces are overly aggressive, but that picture is perversely warped. The truth is that Israel and the United States wage self-crippled wars. To begin to understand that phenomenon, start with that sickening tale out of Afghanistan.

The practice of turning boys into sex slaves is rife in Afghanistan, reports The New York Times, “particularly among powerful men, for whom being surrounded by young teenagers can be a mark of social status.” But if American soldiers and Marines in Afghanistan encounter that practice, they “have been instructed not to intervene — in some cases, not even when their Afghan allies have abused boys on military bases.” Why?

Washington’s turning a blind eye “is intended to maintain good relations with the Afghan police and militia units the United States has trained to fight the Taliban. It also reflects a reluctance to impose cultural values in a country where pederasty is rife.”

Outraged at Washington’s betrayal of individual rights, some American service members pushed back against the policy. But they “have been disciplined or seen their careers ruined because they fought it.” (Read the whole story, but be warned: it will turn your stomach.)

We’ll Come, But We Won’t Fight
Appeasing this odious Afghan practice fits the pattern of Washington’s self-effacing way of war. The proper objective in Afghanistan was to defeat whatever threat the Islamists posed by crushing them militarily. It entailed recognizing the unwelcome necessity of civilian casualties (for which the Islamists bear full responsibility). Instead, U.S. leaders waged a supposedly compassionate war that put the needs and welfare of Afghans first—ahead of the military objective. I document how this way of war played out in my book, “Winning the Unwinnable War: America’s Self-Crippled Response to Islamic Totalitarianism.” The ultra-abridged version: It was a disaster. Here are a few illustrations.

While handing the Islamists umpteen advantages, which they exploited, this self-crippled way of war tied the hands of American soldiers in combat zones.
Washington’s war planners excluded lists of targets from bombing missions. On these “no-strike” lists were cultural-religious sites, electrical plants — a host of legitimate strategic targets ruled untouchable, for fear of affronting or harming civilians. At the start of the war, American cargo planes dropped some 500,000 Islam-compliant food packets to feed starving Afghans and, inevitably, jihadists.

Bombing raids were often canceled, sacrificing opportunities to kill Islamist fighters. The no-strike lists grew ever longer, giving the enemy more places to hide in and fight from. While handing the Islamists umpteen advantages, which they exploited, this self-crippled way of war tied the hands of American soldiers in combat zones.

That is how the Afghan war was actually conducted. Ultimately, Washington believed we have no moral right to defeat the Islamists in the battlefield, so the Afghan people had to come first. On that premise, who are we to assert the objective superiority of our moral values by standing in the way of Afghan men who turn boys into sex slaves?

Doubling the Mental Battle
Imagine being an American soldier, witnessing an Afghan leader keeping a boy chained to a bed as a sex slave, and deciding between complying with orders (to ignore it) and doing the right thing (at minimum, speaking up). Defying orders could get you kicked out of the military and destroy your career. Contemplate the psychological toll of looking the other way and plugging your ears.

Defying orders could get you kicked out of the military and destroy your career.
Soldiers face that same impossible choice, but with their own lives on the line, under the self-crippled rules of engagement on the battlefield. In the last decade, I’ve met veterans of the Afghan and Iraq wars at my public talks. Their insanely restrictive rules of engagement are maddening, they tell me: we were supposed to go after the enemy, risking our lives, but we were made to back off, retreat, and let them fight another day.


Self-Defense Means Letting You Kill Us
Yes, it is astounding that the world’s most powerful military force actually pursued a self-crippled way of war. But it is not alone. Israel, the Middle East’s most powerful military force, has adopted essentially the same approach. Peter Berkowitz, a legal scholar, has noted the searing irony: the United States and Israel are widely accused of “war crimes,” but in fact both “devote untold and unprecedented hours to studying and enforcing” the customary rules of war, which enjoin the avoidance of harming noncombatants.

Recall how the Israel Defense Force dutifully went far out of its way to warn of impending strikes.
Look at last year’s Gaza war. Israel’s paramount responsibility was to defend the lives of its own citizens. Morally, in defending itself, Israel’s priority must be eliminating the threat from Hamas. Hamas declares its goal of destroying Israel in no uncertain terms. It is responsible for devastating suicide bombings and, over the years, thousands of rocket attacks from Gaza against towns and cities in Israel. Yet, against this backdrop—and mirroring the U.S. way of war—Israel subordinated the objective of self-defense in the name of safeguarding civilians in a war zone.

Recall how the Israel Defense Force dutifully went far out of its way to warn of impending strikes. It dropped thousands of leaflets in Arabic warning Gazans to avoid certain areas that may be targeted. It phoned and texted people residing in apartment blocks where a rocket was about to hit, giving them time to evacuate. Often it fired “a knock on the roof” warning rocket, before leveling the building. It aborted missions if civilians were spotted near the target. Hamas notoriously stashed weapons, ammunition, and missiles in private homes, and it puts rocket launchers in densely populated areas.

Their Testimonies Tell It All
Just as America hamstrung its own troops and drew up no-strike lists, handing a tactical gift to Islamists in Afghanistan, so Israel’s conduct, shaped by the same premise, benefited Hamas.

‘We lost our element of surprise, the best of our sons, to make sure we wouldn’t kill civilians that the enemy used as human shields.’
Consider another parallel. Earlier this year, members of the Knesset read aloud testimony from Israeli soldiers who had fought in the 2014 Gaza war. The aim was to rebut a United Nations report on supposed Israeli war crimes.

“The [Israel Defense Force] followed all the rules to clear areas of civilians, but Hamas cynically forced some to stay,” Knesset member Dani Atar (Zionist Union) said, reading the testimony of a Golani soldier. “[Palestinians] were killed by explosives they didn’t know were there that Hamas planted.”

“We lost our element of surprise, the best of our sons, to make sure we wouldn’t kill civilians that the enemy used as human shields,” he added.

Knesset member Merav Ben-Ari (Kulanu) read a testimony by Dror Dagan, who was injured while arresting a terrorist, and listened from the visitors’ gallery, sitting in his wheelchair.

“When we burst into the house and quickly scanned the rooms, the wife of the terrorist, a senior Hamas member, fainted. As a medic, I did not hesitate and started taking care of her,” Dagan wrote. “Not two minutes passed and it turned out that it was a trap. It was all pretend, a trick to gain time so the suspect could get organized.”

“I was injured, because I was taught the values of the IDF, to take care of anyone who is injured, even if it is the wife of a terrorist,” Dagan added.

The statements illustrated the tragic lengths Israel went to avoid harming civilians in the war zone. It’s vital that the lies and distortions about Israeli military conduct be exposed and refuted.

But a fundamental problem common to Jerusalem and Washington is the underlying moral idea shaping their conduct of war. It is the idea that America (and Israel) ought to put their own interests last, that they must sacrifice the lives and security of their citizens to the enemies they are combatting.

Both strive to conform to that prevailing norm. The more consistently they conform to it, the more they cripple their ability to engage in self-defense, the prime responsibility of a government to its citizens. The conventional norm shaping the conduct of war subverts free societies that abide by it, while enabling their enemies on the battlefield. Surely it is past time to rethink that way of war.



Sam......

GB1

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Our allies have got to have their daily dose of bung holes


A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,616
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,616
Good post, Sam.........this is why we may never win another war or serious conflict.

The WWII soldiers who died for the country are rolling over in their graves.

MM

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 14,038
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 14,038
nuke em all and let God sort them out.


the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded. Robert E Lee
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,599
K
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
K
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,599
Compassionate war. Now there's a term you don't hear every day.

Well I suppose we do now.


Founder
Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester

"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."

WS

IC B2

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,263
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,263
Our "war" in Afghanistan has been nothing but a waste of blood and treasure ever since the Taliban were initially overthrown.


I'm better when I move.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321
B
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
B
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321
Wars aren't fought to improve cultures.

They're fought to kill people.

I can't understand why people write articles about stuff like this. Don't they know?

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Muslin men puck other Muslim men, it is their daily way of life


A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806
Did you followw the link to this article? http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/w...-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html
Quote
But the American policy of treating child sexual abuse as a cultural issue has often alienated the villages whose children are being preyed upon. The pitfalls of the policy emerged clearly as American Special Forces soldiers began to form Afghan Local Police militias to hold villages that American forces had retaken from the Taliban in 2010 and 2011.


Apparently the attempt to curry favor with the perverts is offending the right-thinking people we are also attempting to win over. crazy

Is there any society so depraved that there aren't some people who recognize evil like that? Eventually, those right-thinking people are going to rise up against defenders of perversion.


Islam is a terrorist organization.

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
G
Gus Offline
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
G
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
we're either going to mold the rest of the world in our image, or we're not. so far, it's not looking so good. we keep advancing with one arm tied behind our back.

we probably should just start trading as trade markets allow, and keep our testosterone driven penises out of foreign countries who have a different culture from ours. unless we want to kill them until they agree to convert?


IC B3

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,662
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,662
Originally Posted by BarryC
Did you followw the link to this article? http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/w...-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html
Quote
But the American policy of treating child sexual abuse as a cultural issue has often alienated the villages whose children are being preyed upon. The pitfalls of the policy emerged clearly as American Special Forces soldiers began to form Afghan Local Police militias to hold villages that American forces had retaken from the Taliban in 2010 and 2011.


Apparently the attempt to curry favor with the perverts is offending the right-thinking people we are also attempting to win over. crazy

Is there any society so depraved that there aren't some people who recognize evil like that? Eventually, those right-thinking people are going to rise up against defenders of perversion.


one fact that eludes our government, is that islamic societies and cultures are DIFFERENT than we are. Fundamentally different. Night and day different. Like we are from Venus, they are from Mars different.
Islamic culture is not, and never will be compatable with Christian cultures, and the two will NEVER live side by side in peace.


Sam......

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 11,027
pal Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 11,027
Originally Posted by Gus
we're either going to mold the rest of the world in our image, or we're not...


Now that our own government has forced gay marriage upon us, we should think twice before taking actions to mold the rest of the world in our image. And we should remember the old adage about glass houses.


"There's more to optics than meets the eye."--anon

"...most of us would be better off losing half a pound around the waist than half a pound on our rifle."--dhg

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
G
Gus Offline
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
G
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
actually i agree. it's been some 70 years since wwii. we came out as the big dogs in the fight that occurred.

now, everything is standing on it's head, apparently.

back in the nineteen fifties, everyone believed we lived in the real world.

now, we've lost the korea, vietnam, and other wars, and no one seems to care all that much.

of course, now we're bumping up past 7 billion eaters down here on the earth.

i wonder how it'll all work itself out?



Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
AX24

91 members (6mmbrfan, 2500HD, 14idaho, 7mm_Loco, 6mmCreedmoor, 300_savage, 12 invisible), 1,531 guests, and 749 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,190,599
Posts18,454,518
Members73,908
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 


Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.080s Queries: 14 (0.002s) Memory: 0.8619 MB (Peak: 0.9872 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-04-19 07:50:05 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS