The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
Exactly. Two knuckleheads bolted together with nothing valuable to offer.
To the OP, it sounds like the company I referenced and if that's so, they also state that these groups are obtainable with carefully assembled hand loads and using wind flags at a range. Jim Borden also adds that caveat to his accuracy guarantee as well. Not saying those guys are full of bull, but for a sporter weight rifle to shoot groups that small on any type of a consistent basis is extremely hard to achieve.
My 2 cents is to try Nosler BT's (140's or 150's) as I've done with my 280 Ackley. Jarrett once said that if one of his rifles don't shoot to his accuracy standard using Nosler BT's and a known load, he brings the rifle back to the shop to find out what's wrong with the rifle.
Read this piece of advise and follow it. I use Nosler BT's and CT/BT's almost exclusively for deer hunting in my 280 Ackley, 30/06 and 300 WM. There is little sense in assembling loads with bullets you don't intend to use chasing an accuracy guarantee.
Originally Posted by Steelhead
Seems like you're chasing your tail a bit. I'm not one that cares what something will do with 47 different bullets, pick the one you want to hunt with, kiss and work backwards from there.
If the builder guarantees 1/4" accuracy then they should have tested it out to make sure it delivers that, which should include load data and target info.
Exactly. How can anyone including the builder know how accurate a rifle is without shooting it?
Plus, if I were the builder of rifles with a 1/4" guarantee, I'd plan on many of my customers not being able to achieve that and I'd want the proof of the rifle's accuracy in my hands when I got the inevitable call-backs.
Something as simple as which scope the buyer chooses and how he mounts it could put him outside the 1/4" realm, without even getting to the ammo.
The are very few true 1/4" rifles that aren't designed for bench competition. There are still fewer who can produce ammo capable of the kind of accuracy and still fewer shooters who are capable of shooting five shot 1/4" groups. Also, in my not so humble opinion rare is the shop who can back up a 1/4" claim. BTW three shot groups are almost meaningless.
I have a proven way to get your desired group. Shoot at least 20 rounds, there will be at least one group of 3 that will meet your goal, call the rest fliers.
I have a proven way to get your desired group. Shoot at least 20 rounds, there will be at least one group of 3 that will meet your goal, call the rest fliers.
unfortunately often the most accurate bullets are NOT bullets I trust for hunting.
Like Ballistic tips.
If you want to see pure accuracy, get match grade bullets, size the brass for the chamber, make your runout nil, run an audette or ladder test, bullet seated out close to lands but never touching. If engaged make sure you are at least 20th engaged or 20th off the rifling. Nothing between.
Shoot the rifle off bags, front bag closer to the action, not the front of the stock, dry fire a LOT before shooting groups
Shoot in no mirage conditions and calm winds.
IMHO if the first group out of a custom gun shoots 1.5 inches, I would never shoot that load again. Unless you are not a good shot/shooter.
My first thought, as always is, use a proven scope next. Thats the FIRST thing to look at, assuming you know you put the bases and rings and scope on tight and correctly.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
If you've had several Jarrett rifles and none would hold consistent 3/4" groups then I suspect the problem might be with "the Indian and not the arrow". All my Jarretts, and I've had several too, will shoot half inch or less all day long. So will my Carolina Precisions. You mentioned that you purchased rifles from these makers without load testing from the gunsmiths as well.....I don't know of one solitary accuracy gunsmith that will claim any accuracy guarantee without load work up and function testing...not one. I live right down the road from McWhorter , but prefer the other makers mentioned by a large margin, as do my local hunting friends.
My accuracy and hunting load for my custom 7/08: 41.0 grains of IMR 4064 behind a Nosler 140 grain BT. Federal 210M primers. Shoots .2" all day long, and drops deer in their tracks.
Good luck
Last edited by Godogs57; 10/10/15.
You only live once, but...if you do it right, once is enough.
If you've had several Jarrett rifles and none would hold consistent 3/4" groups then I suspect the problem might be with "the Indian and not the arrow". All my Jarretts, and I've had several too, will shoot half inch or less all day long. So will my Carolina Precisions. You mentioned that you purchased rifles from these makers without load testing from the gunsmiths as well.....I don't know of one solitary accuracy gunsmith that will claim any accuracy guarantee without load work up and function testing...not one. I live right down the road from McWhorter , but prefer the other makers mentioned by a large margin, as do my local hunting friends.
My accuracy and hunting load for my custom 7/08: 41.0 grains of IMR 4064 behind a Nosler 140 grain BT. Federal 210M primers. Shoots .2" all day long, and drops deer in their tracks.
Good luck
Please post pictures of 3 consecutive groups under 1/2" shot with a .284 or larger sportster rifle using hunting bullets & a hunting scope.
As usual the serious posters are subjected to the kibitzing wrong way Corrigan, hecklers whose malicious little left stab Guinea twister is always present. Alas that detritus in society.
I've been hunting, shooting and reloading for 70 years now. Back in the old days I put together my own rifles. Developed my own accuracy.
First of all if some custom builder offered a guarantee of 1/4" or MOA or whatever you want to call a group size, I would turn around and march out immediately.
Secondly, without a written performance guarantee, signed by both party's, the buyer doesn't have a Maidens prayer. It is hearsay inadmissible in a court of law.
Third: As almost everyone here knows, there are so many variables to accuracy that they could fill a book.
Fourth: When the buyer threatens to return the rifle, all the provider has to say is NO. Then it's an impasse. The two choices are #1. Swallow your pride and keep the rifle with the knowledge that you have been duped.. #2. Go to court for recourse and recovery. Which you will LOSE if it's a verbal agreement.
It may come as a shock but I was in the contracting business for years with State Governments as well as Federal Governments and local private contractors. I know the rules and requirements for compliance.
As usual the serious posters are subjected to the kibitzing wrong way Corrigan, hecklers whose malicious little left stab Guinea twister is always present. Alas that detritus in society.
I've been hunting, shooting and reloading for 70 years now. Back in the old days I put together my own rifles. Developed my own accuracy.
First of all if some custom builder offered a guarantee of 1/4" or MOA or whatever you want to call a group size, I would turn around and march out immediately.
Secondly, without a written performance guarantee, signed by both party's, the buyer doesn't have a Maidens prayer. It is hearsay inadmissible in a court of law.
Third: As almost everyone here knows, there are so many variables to accuracy that they could fill a book.
Fourth: When the buyer threatens to return the rifle, all the provider has to say is NO. Then it's an impasse. The two choices are #1. Swallow your pride and keep the rifle with the knowledge that you have been duped.. #2. Go to court for recourse and recovery. Which you will LOSE if it's a verbal agreement.
It may come as a shock but I was in the contracting business for years with State Governments as well as Federal Governments and local private contractors. I know the rules and requirements for compliance.
Life Member SCI Life Member DSC Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell
First of all if some custom builder offered a guarantee of 1/4" or MOA or whatever you want to call a group size, I would turn around and march out immediately.
And the gunsmith would happily let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.
Originally Posted by William_E_Tibbe
Secondly, without a written performance guarantee, signed by both party's, the buyer doesn't have a Maidens prayer. It is hearsay inadmissible in a court of law.
Willy: There's more than one rifle maker that gives an accuracy guarantee. None of them are signed by the buyer.
Originally Posted by William_E_Tibbe
I've been hunting, shooting and reloading for 70 years now. Back in the old days I put together my own rifles. Developed my own accuracy.
A lifetime of stupid is no better than a few years' worth.
When AI built my 280AI it included the load data and a box of rounds they had loaded.Theirs was a half inch guarantee,which was easily met.I would talk to the maker first thing.
Last edited by Huntz; 10/11/15.
Its all right to be white!! Stupidity left unattended will run rampant Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
Accuracy guarantees depend both on the shooter and the maker.
Once tested a .300 Weatherby from a gunsmith who guaranteed 1/2" 5-shot groups with factory ammo. He even sent along some factory ammo to shoot in the rifle. I certainly didn't find that accuracy, but did manage to get one load to group 5 in 3/4" after sorting the ammo for bullet concentricity. When I told the gunsmith my results he said, "I'll take 3/4 inch!"
Much of it depends on whether they specify 3-shot or 5-shot groups. Contrary to what many believe, 5-shot groups will always average larger than 3-shot groups, even from a benchrest rifle, and no, it's not always (or even often) due to barrels warming up but the laws of chance: Three shots aren't enought to demonstrate the actual maximum spread from a certain rifle or load.
This is why a lot of guarantees are for 3-shot groups, and most customers will be satisfied if most 3-shot groups make the guarantee--but the shooter also has to understand several things about bench shooting, including some most people ignore, like wind flags, parallax, and really anal handloading techniques.
Many also mount a brand-new scope on their brand-new rifle, and if the rifle doesn't shoot to the guarantee, how do you know whether it's the rifle or the scope? One custom riflesmith I know constantly has to deal with people whose scopes go bad, but say, "But I spent $1000 on this XXXXX!"
One other comment: I've thoroughly tested not just one but several Jarrett rifles and have yet to encounter one that wouldn't put three shots inside a half-inch consistently with the right load. But you can also make them shoot 2" groups. I know this because the first one I tested, a 7mm-08 AI, came with some handloads supplied by Jarret. Turned out they were loaded by an employee who was a drug abuser who was fired while I was still testing the rifle. I borrowed a set of dies from Kenny and my own handloads shot a lot better.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
It's Sunday morning. I'm sitting here with nothing to do except to be a good and decent Christian interested in helping my fellow Countrymen.
Why would you find it necessary to interject yet another insulting cheap shot at me. What did I ever do to you ?
Calling me Willy is a term of endearment, My friends call me Willy. I like that. I know that you like me, I can tell.
If there is more than one rifle maker that offers a performance guarantee that simply confirms that the industry is polluted with faker, charlatan, con artists vying with competition to lure in the suckers.
You will never understand my mentality and logic. I think in MULTIPLE scenarios all inclusive with all, or most, alternatives, and ramifications.
That's probably why so many can't follow/fathom my posts even though I have gone to more and more explanations.
It's Sunday morning. I'm sitting here with nothing to do except to be a good and decent Christian interested in helping my fellow Countrymen.
Why would you find it necessary to interject yet another insulting cheap shot at me. What did I ever do to you ?
Calling me Willy is a term of endearment, My friends call me Willy. I like that. I know that you like me, I can tell.
If there is more than one rifle maker that offers a performance guarantee that simply confirms that the industry is polluted with faker, charlatan, con artists vying with competition to lure in the suckers. You will never understand my mentality and logic. I think in MULTIPLE scenarios all inclusive with all, or most, alternatives, and ramifications.
That's probably why so many can't follow/fathom my posts even though I have gone to more and more explanations.
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