|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,755
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,755 |
I just think it's easier to find outside edges than to "guesstimate" the center of the bullet hole when measuring groups.
Particularly as people tend to report groups to 3 decimal places. Yeah, and for a lot of purposes it's really moot. That said, I just did a test. I have a target on my desk with two groups shot by a 7mm rifle. The bullet marks are well defined. First I measured directly center to center as carefully as I could. Then I measured outside and subtracted a bullet diameter. This second measurement produced a smaller number. Then I measured the diameter of the bullet hole marks. They were .25" to .26". Call it .03 under bullet diameter. Care to guess what the difference in the group size measurements was? _________________________________________________________ No, I try to avoid guessing. But tell us ! You already know everything. Why do you need him to tell you?
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
- Albert Einstein
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491 |
I just think it's easier to find outside edges than to "guesstimate" the center of the bullet hole when measuring groups.
Particularly as people tend to report groups to 3 decimal places. Yeah, and for a lot of purposes it's really moot. That said, I just did a test. I have a target on my desk with two groups shot by a 7mm rifle. The bullet marks are well defined. First I measured directly center to center as carefully as I could. Then I measured outside and subtracted a bullet diameter. This second measurement produced a smaller number. Then I measured the diameter of the bullet hole marks. They were .25" to .26". Call it .03 under bullet diameter. Care to guess what the difference in the group size measurements was? _________________________________________________________ No, I try to avoid guessing. But tell us ! Using the word "guess" is sort of the pun there, wizard. The answer was already given. 
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670 |
Mathman:
C-mon good Buddy, cough it up.
Bill..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804 |
It's staring you in the face.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,023
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,023 |
I received my new 7-08 from a well known builder with a 1/4" guarantee a few months ago. So far I have ran 1 box of factory ammo through it & 23 140 Sierra fb with 41.0 gr of IMR 4350. Except for a single 1/2" group it is a 11/2" rifle.
I plan to try Varget, 145 Speer Hot Cores, 150 partations & 150 Sierra BTs.
It has a new Zeiss Conquest on it with double dovetail Leupold mounts. I don't think the scope is bad but if 1 of the above loads I' trade out the scope for a proven German Zeiss.
If it doesn't shoot the 150 Sierras should I take it back or try all the above loads? IME, bench rest technique becomes more critical, lighter the rifle. The really light ones can be a challenge. I'd call the maker and see what load they used for their 1/4" groups. I'd find a bud who was a bench rest shooter with experience and let him try that load. Maybe get two or three really good shooters to give it a whirl. If all results pointed to an inch and a half gun, then I'd call the maker and have a heart to heart discussion about their quarter inch guarantee. DF
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,512
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,512 |
Word moot above applies. For a hunting rifle. Not sure if 1/4 Moa is more effective than a 3/4. How far you shooting game with that 7-08 would be interesting.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317 |
Willy, if you've handloaded, wildcatted, and shot for 70 years, how is it that you never learned what a group is?
Take a young fool, give him a life time of training, and you get an old fool.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 44,922
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 44,922 |
Willy, if you've handloaded, wildcatted, and shot for 70 years, how is it that you never learned what a group is?
Take a young fool, give him a life time of training, and you get an old fool. kinda like sobering up a horse thief, One still has a horse thief to deal with. And we have someone who just doesn't get it. Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men.
In it is contentment
In it is death and all you seek
(Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
member of the cabal of dysfunctional squirrels?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 95,928
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 95,928 |
Willy, if you've handloaded, wildcatted, and shot for 70 years, how is it that you never learned what a group is?
Take a young fool, give him a life time of training, and you get an old fool. kinda like sobering up a horse thief, One still has a horse thief to deal with. And we have someone who just doesn't get it.Geno Yup.
Life Member SCI
Life Member DSC
Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell
Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670 |
It's staring you in the face. Gotcha. Cool. I should have known.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670 |
I'd run from any maker that guaranteed a 1/4" in a sporter...
Because telling lies doesn't bother him.
And even if he could pull it off, 98% of the people who shoot rifles aren't' capable of consistent 1/4" groups. myself included. Hi John; I put together my own rifles years ago and meticulously tried to achieve perfection. My best 3 shot group on my best day, in my life time, was covered by a dime. That's 0.706" according to my Lyman digital dial caliper. So I suppose that you can include me in your group. Bill
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804 |
What was the bullet diameter?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670 |
25-06 Neidner wildcat, original Belgian FN Mauser commercial sporter, bought in about 1952-53. It was a 250-3000 re-chambered to the 25-06 a few months after purchase.
Bill
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804 |
My best 100 yard, "fits under a dime" group is from a Remington 40X in 308 Winchester. Ten shots.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698 |
People who have sporter weight rifles shooting hunting bullets
that are shooting .250 five shot groups at 100 yards are to be admired and emulated.
Wave to them when you see them driving their 22 mpg Suburbans.
whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,832
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,832 |
People who have sporter weight rifles shooting hunting bullets
that are shooting .250 five shot groups at 100 yards are to be admired and emulated.
Wave to them when you see them driving their 22 mpg Suburbans.
whelennut +1
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317 |
I consider it reasonable for a custom hunting rifle to consistently group three hunting bullets into 1" or less at 100 yds with minimal load work. With every bullet and every load, no.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804 |
People who have sporter weight rifles shooting hunting bullets
that are shooting .250 five shot groups at 100 yards are to be admired and emulated.
Wave to them when you see them driving their 22 mpg Suburbans.
whelennut I hear about a lot more half inch rifles than I actually see at the range.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,490
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,490 |
You guys do realize that 1/2 inch groups can be acquired by bad shooters getting lucky just that one time.
These are the same guys that when shooting at geese and the fourth one back on the other side of the flock falls, they proudly claim that that was the precise one he was shooting at.
Writing here is Prohibited by the authorities.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804 |
You guys do realize that 1/2 inch groups can be acquired by bad shooters getting lucky just that one time.
These are the same guys that when shooting at geese and the fourth one back on the other side of the flock falls, they proudly claim that that was the precise one he was shooting at. Of course. That's why my spec for a half moa rifle is one that on demand delivers four or five, five shot groups averaging half moa or less. Takes the fluke element right out.
|
|
|
|
|
571 members (007FJ, 1eyedmule, 12344mag, 10Glocks, 1234, 1beaver_shooter, 51 invisible),
2,688
guests, and
1,231
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,190,568
Posts18,453,813
Members73,908
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
