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Fifty odd years ago I shot a couple deer with a bow and while I enjoyed shooting the bow, I didn't care for shooting deer with a bow as compared to a rifle. This year I decided to try it again because I have an overpopulation of deer in my neighborhood, too many houses too close together to suit me and a general aversion to making a lot of noise with neighbors so close. And, Minnesota says since I am over 60 I can use a crossbow.

I decided on an Excaliber 330 because the Excaliburs have an excellent reputation for reliability as opposed to compound crossbows. The bow came with a scope. First focal plane with the magnification adjustment calibrated to arrow speed. The scope adjusted easily to zero and the calibration to arrow speed was flawless and allowed easy hits at 20 yards out to fifty yards. For a competent rifleman the bow and scope were easy to adjust to thanks to a decent trigger.

With minimal practice, it was easy to put an arrow within an inch of where I wanted it at 20 yards offhand, and a piece of cake to place it exactly from any kind of rest.

I have a place to shoot deer where they basically walk right straight up to me. Just a little obvious movement on my part will stop them in their tracks while they try to figure out what I am. The zone I live in allows me one buck and one/two antlerless. The first one I stopped at 20 yards and I put the arrow in about mid-neck because that's where it lined up with the heart they way she stood. I got a little too close to the cervical spine and the Rage 2 inch shaved bone all the way down the neck and then went on down to the top of the heart where it stopped. Two little crow hops and she flopped on her side six feet from where she stood at the shot. The second deer offered a little better angle in And the Muzzy 100 grain went through the heart on out at about the belly button. She ran about 70 yards and dropped. The third, a smallish six was hit identically with another Rage 2 inch and made it about 100 yards.

They all bled very well. Easy blood trails to follow on the latter two even in the dark using a flashlight. They died as quickly as can be expected when there is a little functional lung and heart left as opposed to what happens when you do the same shot with a rifle and completely destroy both heart and lung. None of the three really bled much from the entry wounds. The blood trails were the result of blood filling the lungs and being sprayed out of the mouth and nose. As a result, the blood trail in the first 20-30 yards was much less than that of the last 30 yards. A lateral or quartering away shot would have obviously been much different.

The accuracy of the bow combined with the speed makes it easy to place a shot at 20 yards EXACTLY where you want it. The speed makes it virtually impossible at that range for Bambi to jump the string. By the time the deer realized that they'd been shot at it was all over. None so much as twitched before the arrow was in and had done it's work.

The parts I didn't like... The bow makes enough noise that somewhere out past 30 yards string jump may be a problem. The scope is pee poor in low light, the light performance is awful and the reticle is too fine. It's usable, but when you get to last light under heavy canopy it just doesn't help old eyes. Broad-heads are not cheap like bullets. People who flinch at 60 cents for a Barnes/ETip/GMX would probably wet themselves over a $10-$15 broad-head that's done after one shot much less a like cost for the shaft and another $10 for lighted nocks. IMO the lighted nocks are very much worth the price because you get instant confirmation of where that arrow hit, and a little better chance of finding the arrow afterwards. Even with that confirmation though, you still have the little nag in the back of your head that maybe something wasn't perfect. It'd be nice if it was a little faster and a lot quieter. How fast? I don't know. Speed like with a rifle comes at a price. Lighter arrows go faster and penetrate less, break/cut less bone. Cocking a much stronger recurve crossbow could well get to be a problem without a cocking winch. Arrow stiffness required to handle much more powerful limbs means more weight.

Basically, it does exactly what I want it to, it's a short range accurate rifle that's very quiet for the neighbors. It's not bow hunting in a more classical sense.

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a couple things.. virtually impossible to jump is impossible.
Simple physics, you are no where near to the speed of sound with an arrow.
Its a simple fact.

Other, mechanical heads are mechanical devices which can and will eventually fail.
You pay your money and take your chances, but if you run a fixed blade head, keep your shots short, take only broadside or quartering away, you'll never be left wringing your hands....

As it goes now longer shots, weird angles, assuming frontal penetration, and so on, you are setting up for disaster. IMHO.

Congrats on the 3 deer though! It all worked right 3 times and thats good.

I've taken so many with a bow and now with crossbow, that i"ve made the mistakes, paid the price and hate to see others do the same.


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If you're shooting a crossbow at 20 to 30 yards, you can easily get away with cheap wal-mart broadheads. Lighted nocks are also not really needed. You might be able to get away with 8$ per arrow smile

Heck, you could use an old single edge and sharpen yourself. At that range the performance window is wide indeed ...


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I have owned 4 different crossbows over the past 5 years and the first thing I do is put a red dot scope on them. Lets you hunt earlier and later. I am partial to TruGlo single or 3 dot sights that are parallax free to I think 50 yards. Never had a single problem with them as long as you remember to turn them off when not in use. Tom.

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Originally Posted by Talus_in_Arizona
If you're shooting a crossbow at 20 to 30 yards, you can easily get away with cheap wal-mart broadheads. Lighted nocks are also not really needed. You might be able to get away with 8$ per arrow smile

Heck, you could use an old single edge and sharpen yourself. At that range the performance window is wide indeed ...


Yeah, of the three I killed with it, two were standing in exactly the same place at 21 yards, the third was a couple feet away but within a yard distance wise.

Cheaper arrows and broadheads might still be accurate enough, but why? I look at it like I do with the Barnes bullets... The price of one shot isn't going to hurt me and I do what I do for specific reasons. It doesn't bother me, but like I said I know it will bother some. A Lot. I imagine that ebay could produce some good heads at a lot less and buying cheap arrows and then sorting for accuracy should solve any problems there.

I shoot into a very dark area. At last light my eyes cannot see a deer well enough even at 20 yards that I am comfortable shooting without the scope. Seeing the arrow in the scope go exactly where I wanted it is well worth the $10 a lighted nock costs. I have a Meopta with a very good FFP reticle that probably will be close enough with it's marks for extended range, and it is superb in low light.

I sharpened both the Muzzy and the Rage blades because I didn't like the way they came. I am not at all sure it made the least little bit of difference though. I suspect that as long as they aren't very dull they'll work they same.

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Originally Posted by TomA
I have owned 4 different crossbows over the past 5 years and the first thing I do is put a red dot scope on them. Lets you hunt earlier and later. I am partial to TruGlo single or 3 dot sights that are parallax free to I think 50 yards. Never had a single problem with them as long as you remember to turn them off when not in use. Tom.


Compared to a decent scope, how do they measure up for brightness?

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Brightness comparisons I could not tell you. The major advantage is you have an illuminated dot that you can quickly get on target with. No searching for crosshairs on a dark bodied animal in early light or last few minutes of legal shooting light. It's like putting a small red dot on a black target, hold steady and squeeze the trigger. Only thing to be careful of is not set the intensity to high as this will cause glare/reflection inside the scope and make seeing the target harder. Tom

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Originally Posted by MILES58
Originally Posted by Talus_in_Arizona
If you're shooting a crossbow at 20 to 30 yards, you can easily get away with cheap wal-mart broadheads. Lighted nocks are also not really needed. You might be able to get away with 8$ per arrow smile

Heck, you could use an old single edge and sharpen yourself. At that range the performance window is wide indeed ...


Yeah, of the three I killed with it, two were standing in exactly the same place at 21 yards, the third was a couple feet away but within a yard distance wise.

Cheaper arrows and broadheads might still be accurate enough, but why? I look at it like I do with the Barnes bullets... The price of one shot isn't going to hurt me and I do what I do for specific reasons. It doesn't bother me, but like I said I know it will bother some. A Lot. I imagine that ebay could produce some good heads at a lot less and buying cheap arrows and then sorting for accuracy should solve any problems there.

I shoot into a very dark area. At last light my eyes cannot see a deer well enough even at 20 yards that I am comfortable shooting without the scope. Seeing the arrow in the scope go exactly where I wanted it is well worth the $10 a lighted nock costs. I have a Meopta with a very good FFP reticle that probably will be close enough with it's marks for extended range, and it is superb in low light.

I sharpened both the Muzzy and the Rage blades because I didn't like the way they came. I am not at all sure it made the least little bit of difference though. I suspect that as long as they aren't very dull they'll work they same.


Assuming a head is sharp enough or that it doesn't matter is another sign of bow inexperience. There are reasons to get em as sharp as you can. There are reasons that you don't take out bone going in, only going out if at all

You are on the right path with the sharpening. Lots of folks may have sharp heads but never check every now and then, they dull as you carry them... I touch up quite often just in case.

Obviously if you hit the heart like I generally do, its no biggie, field tip would work, but you sure wound wounds with clean cuts that cannot try to coagulate etc....

Good luck.


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Originally Posted by rost495
a couple things.. virtually impossible to jump is impossible.
Simple physics, you are no where near to the speed of sound with an arrow.
Its a simple fact.

Other, mechanical heads are mechanical devices which can and will eventually fail.
You pay your money and take your chances, but if you run a fixed blade head, keep your shots short, take only broadside or quartering away, you'll never be left wringing your hands....

As it goes now longer shots, weird angles, assuming frontal penetration, and so on, you are setting up for disaster. IMHO.

Congrats on the 3 deer though! It all worked right 3 times and thats good.

I've taken so many with a bow and now with crossbow, that i"ve made the mistakes, paid the price and hate to see others do the same.


How about we start with something simple like you explaining the physics of the problem to me.

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seriously?


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Originally Posted by rost495
seriously?


Yup.

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speed of sound. 1200 fps is how fast the sound of the arrow and bow gets to the deer.

The arrow... under 400 fps.... 3 times as slow..

21 yard shot, the deer hears it when the arrow is at 7 yards give or take.

Watch one eat once. Watch a bird swoop in, see how they flinch. They are not trying to duck the arrow, they have to drop some to get spring in them to "jump" away from teh sound. Even whirling they have to squat a bit.

I had my best buck to date the otehr day at 25. I can easily hit him in the ear at 25... But I was patient and let him come to about 15.... if he would have walked away, I"d have let him...at 25...

You don't have a short range quiet rifle. You have a loud crossbow.

They can jump a crossbow. Generally I've found not all the way, but the buck I shot the ohter night, was hit about 2 inches higher than I was aiming when the arrow left.... he was ducking.... at 15 steps.


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Jesus! I am really sorry! I was expecting a physics lesson what with the flat out declarations. No accounting for the brain transmission time which is very slow, no accounting for the processing to realize that it wasn't a squirrel that made the noise up there, no accounting for the neural transmission to the ends of the legs, which while much faster than the3 brain transmission is still quite slow, no accounting for the time it takes to cross the synapses from the nerves to the muscles which slows things down again, no accounting for the time necessary to move the muscles which is slower yet, no accounting for the time it takes to accelerate the body after the muscles move which is even slower..

Damn! I been gypped! I was thinking I might be going to learn something useful. All I learned is that you think Bambi is quick enough to jump that bow after I just killed three that didn't have time to twitch and I stopped them with them looking right at me when I shot. Crap!

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Never mind, post erased, removed myself from this topic...

Last edited by rost495; 11/01/15.

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well, I cured the low light performance issues with the scope.

I bought a Zeiss Dialyt 2-8x42 for a rifle but hadn't mounted it yet. I put it on the crossbow, calibrated it so the fifty yard aim point is the top of the vertical post and it's dead on at twenty with the cross hairs. Seems to shoot well.

Tried it last night and I gave up and went home before I lost shooting light with it. Much more precise in poor light now and it is plenty enough to use well past legal shooting time.

I think I may try a much cheaper scope when I finish the rifle project and need this scope, but it sure is nice for now. It'd be nice to find a BDC reticle that I can calibrate so that intermediate yardages are close enough.

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Filled the last of four tags Yestereve. Since this was intended from the get-go as a science project to see what I could learn I wanted to shoot this last one with the same Rage 2" broad head that I used on two of the others. I waited and waited passing a lot of shots for one to give me a perfect broadside so I could tuck it just behind the shoulder and mid-body on a nice yearling doe because a large part of the experiment was intended to resolve over population first and foremost.

Last night was the same distance of 20-22 yards as the previous three deer. This one was the smallest, about 140-150 dressed. Arrow went in just a little back of the heart and just a little above. Nicely centered double lung shot. Years and years of shooting a rifle have made me compulsively follow through. I saw the hit well thanks to the lighted nock and saw the deer bolt to my right through the scope. Having a really good Zeiss rifle scope on a crossbow seems a little extreme, but it sure works nice.

Because she spun and bolted out of my sight to my right I began looking in that direction and spent a good hour and a half in search of blood that wasn't there. I couldn't believe there was absolutely nothing after putting the Rage through exactly where I wanted it. I knew she was laying dead somewhere nearby and have seen enough rifle shot deer not bleed that I had to stick with what I saw for a long time.

I started looking in a pattern and found good blood about 100 feet from where I shot her in the opposite direction from which she bolted. From there it was easy to follow the blood 150 yards or so the where she lay.

Necropsy revealed cut up pulmonary arteries and veins just past the aorta along with the lung damage expected. That confirmed the decreasing blood trail I followed, she pumped herself empty and tipped over. A retrace backwards of the blood trail in this morning's light showed she didn't bleed much at all until she'd gone 30-50 feet. In 3-5 inches of red oak leaves after dark even a super flashlight couldn't help me find the millimeter sized specks every 6-10 feet or so when I was unsure which direction she'd gone with nothing in the first 30 feet.

Lessons learned from the experiment:

1. Testing revealed that this bow will drive a >450 grain arrow with field point hard enough to penetrate 3/4 inch of plywood and 3-1/2 inch of 2x4 with some arrow sticking out the back side. Probably enough to ventilate Bambi at fifty yards.

2. Even very sharp broad heads with a huge cut won't necessarily produce much of a blood trail in the first 50 feet regardless of the placement of the shot. None of the four deer I shot this year had anything even approaching a marginal shot and the only one that didn't need some "sorting out" at the beginning of the trail was dead six feet from where it stood at the shot.

3. This crossbow is easily accurate enough to place an arrow precisely enough that dead on frontal shots through the heart are easy from a rest.

4. At 20 yards none of four deer so much as flinched before the arrow was through them, speed is good, and a lighter faster arrow may be worth investigating since the only shot that was not a pass through cut a lot of bone. Two deer, the blades, never touched bone, and this last one, the Rage blades, but not the tip apparently from cursory examination cut rib entering and exiting. Three pass-throughs and one with the blades of the rage into the top of the heart where they stopped.

5. Hunting where better light is available is better than under heavy canopy with a poor background.

6. The scope supplied with the Matrix with a 32mm objective is not adequate. The available 44mm scope may be better, but from the comparisons I did it's not even close the Zeiss. To be expected of course, but if you're looking for performance
and expecting it you should not go into it not thinking your typical crossbow scope will provide it. The last five minutes before the end of legal shooting time are by far the most important and being able to see your target well enough to be certain of the angle and the relative position of the internal organs is critical.

7. The crossbow is loud by comparison to a vertical compound, even after doing about as much as can be done to quiet it. At twenty yards, none of these deer had time to jump the string. All four arrows hit exactly where they were aimed.

8. One of the objectives I had was to kill surely and quickly enough that Bambi didn't run off and disturb the neighbor's dinner by making a scene in front of their dining room window. Even as efficient as this crossbow is, it is not up to that job. One deer with a 2 inch Rage right through the heart made it about 100 yards, one made it probably closer to 200 with the same Rage doing equivalent damage. A down loaded muzzle loader can meet that objective though. Next year's project may be to see if a rifled barrel shotgun can provide the accuracy and noise reduction I need If I down load it.

9. As a substitute for a compound or long bow for someone like me with ruined shoulders or age related infirmity and use in a place where instant incapacitation isn't so necessary, this is a great solution. It's not at all difficult to place a shot such that death is very certain to occur inside 200 yards. It's certainly equal to a shotgun with typical Foster slug loads once the shotgun has to shoot past the range when tumbling can begin. I have seen more than a couple shotguns that wouldn't shoot slugs this accurately at fifty yards.


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