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#10657172 11/03/15
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I shot a cow elk Sunday evening and was able to load it whole, does anyone have a suggestion on how long to leave it hang before processing?


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Guess it depends on how cold it is where you can hang it and how stable the temp will be.

I left a boned out elk on ice for a week and it turned out just dandy. It was completely covered in ice though so it was probably colder than a standard fridge.


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There are experts all over the board on what is best. I wouldn't wait until January to cut it, but once it is cooled through, it is fine from 2 days to 2 weeks...


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Originally Posted by shrapnel


There are experts all over the board on what is best.

Are you referring to aging time, or how he got it out? whistle

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Best one I ever had mostly froze in a blizzard the night I took him, then hung in my garage for 12 or so days with the hide on at 45*.

The next best didn't even age, we started eating on that one the night of the kill.


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Originally Posted by conrad101st
Guess it depends on how cold it is where you can hang it and how stable the temp will be.

I left a boned out elk on ice for a week and it turned out just dandy. It was completely covered in ice though so it was probably colder than a standard fridge.


Outside temp this morning is 32 degrees. The shop probably stays a little warmer and more constant at 40.


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I hung my bull whole on Sunday night with the hide on. He will hang until at least November 16. 14-21 days is great if the temp is around 40-44 degrees.

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Meat scientists with whom I have worked tell me that with elk, you're wasting your time and drying the meat excessively if you hang it beyond five days. With deer, they say the same after four days.

Hanging in the skin (as most of us do) is preferable. If you skin the animal, knock a day or two off the the above unless you use a shroud to cut down on drying.


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The guys here suggest 10 days, but that can very with the age o the animal.. I no longer cut up my elk, have a local guy do it.. He likes to let them hang 10 days...

Some of the best meat I ever had was when I lived in another house here in town. It had a huge old garage.. One year I killed one later in season.. We just hung it and cut meat off as we needed it.. The meat got ice crystals in it but it was the best.. Worked ok til it got really cold and froze hard as a rock...


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Couple of reasons that people hang meat.
Long muscle and fiber will constrict to some extent after a kill. Waiting until it relaxes again improves the texture/tenderness. It should be completely soft again in less than 72 hours.

Ageing meat is a different deal. Done to enhance flavor and is much more to the individual's preference (although additional softening occurs during ageing also). Some people will age meat for quite a while.

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We just aged a cow moose two weeks in a small walk in cooler at 36 degrees. There was no drying, but we did hose it down to clean it off before we put it in the cooler.

There is nothing in the hide that is going to add to the quality of the meat, but a lot that will detract from it. I treat any animal,deer,elk, etc., the samea s I would treat a beef that I butcher. Get the hide off immedicately, keep it clean and get it cooledd down.

We cut all the membrane off the carcass before we bucther and the elk that we do age ,there is maybe 1/8" of drying of the meat, but that gets cut off with the membrane. Probably less than 2-3 pounds of meat cut off.

Certainly the age of the animal will dictate the length of time it should be aged. A young bull or cow maybe aged 3-4 days, something older 8-10 years,it gets aged at least a week.

It is more important to keep the temperature even. Most at about 34-38 degrees. The up and down from that to 55-60 or greater is what really hurts and a person needs to watch the meat carefully if that is happening. With care, in muzzle loader season when it is warmer, I have kept an elk in camp 3-4 days without a problem.

As Alomosa states, you at least want the meat to go into and out of Rigor Mortis to let the muscles relax, before removing from the bone.


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We've had long discussions here about how to get the best tenderness. Gutless dressing is very popular and I've done it many times myself but if it's done before rigor mortis sets in, it's sure to make the the meat tougher, sometime a LOT tougher.


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Have a personal freezer (commercial grade) ,been using it for mostly wild game over 20 years .
Nice think about it ,its a place to store the meat until you have time to cut it up.
The longer you hang wild meat the gamer it will taste.
The dryer the cuts are.
The more waste you will have.
I try not to go more than 10 days for a moose,4 days for a deer .
Day one starts the day it was shot,not the day you hung it .

This fall I shot a 47 inch spread moose on a Wed and got it hung on friday .
I start cutting up that saturday. Mostly the fronts as that went threw the grinder I finish off the rest the following weekend.
It was very good .
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Originally Posted by Homewreacker
Have a personal freezer (commercial grade) ,been using it for mostly wild game over 20 years .
Nice think about it ,its a place to store the meat until you have time to cut it up.
The longer you hang wild meat the gamer it will taste.
The dryer the cuts are.
The more waste you will have.


Wondering why you say it will taste gamier. That is pretty much decided by what it eats and how the meat was taken care of immediately after the kill.

Probably drier because a lot of the blood gets a chance to drain out which is good thing for me.



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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
We've had long discussions here about how to get the best tenderness. Gutless dressing is very popular and I've done it many times myself but if it's done before rigor mortis sets in, it's sure to make the the meat tougher, sometime a LOT tougher.


RC, I use the gutless method 95% of the time, what causes the meat to be tougher if done to quickly

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Originally Posted by Ackleyfan
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
We've had long discussions here about how to get the best tenderness. Gutless dressing is very popular and I've done it many times myself but if it's done before rigor mortis sets in, it's sure to make the the meat tougher, sometime a LOT tougher.


RC, I use the gutless method 95% of the time, what causes the meat to be tougher if done to quickly
As meat approaches rigor mortis, the fibers contract and shortened fibers are tougher. If they're still on the bone, contraction is minimal. If cut, though, they will get shorter and will stay that way. They won't stretch out again no matter what you do.
I've kept track of the toughest animals I've killed over the last 20 years and all of them have been done gutless. A couple have been memorable in how tough they were, totally unchewable. I once ended up with 300lb of moose burger because of it.
In recent years I've stopped doing it gutless, in spite of the extra work and mess involved, and I haven't had a tough one since.

Cold shortening is another factor. Meat that's cooled too fast, like hot meat cut off the carcass and rolled in snow, will be tougher. Look up cold shortening for more info. Ive read research that game shot close to the freezing point should be left unskinned for at least 12 hours to slow down the cooling and to prevent cold shortening.


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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
In recent years I've stopped doing it gutless, in spite of the extra work and mess involved, and I haven't had a tough one since.

Why would gutting or not affect toughness? Are you using gutless to mean boneless?

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The gutless method refers to removing the front quarters, usually with the bone intact and then removing the hind quarters by filleting down to the hip socket from the top of the pelvis and leaving that leg bone intact and then filleting of the backs trap from pelvis to neck. Ending up with the rib cage, spine, neck and head intact without removing the guts.

The tenderloin can be removed by pushing in the paunch and cutting the tenderloins at each end and pulling out. Some back packers bone out the leg bones too.


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The gutless method refers to skinning out the animal on each side and not gutting it. Then removing the front quarter with the leg bone in. Then removing the hind quarter by filleting down from the top of the pelvis to the hip socket and leaving the leg bone in. Then filleting the back strap from pelvis to the neck. Remove the tenderloins by pushing in the paunch an d cutting at each end, then pulling it out. Flip the animal over and repeat. Some back packers remove the leg bones too.

When done the rib cage, spine, pelvis neck and head are in tack with the guts inside.

I do gut less when I am by myself. With the moose I just got, we gutted it. Sawed the ribs off and took the spine intact with the backstrap still on it. Hopefully that will fix the problem of that being tough.

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Go to an auto parts store and pick up a thermometer for A/C testing. The range is perfect. Stab it into the rear quarter to monitor the temp. You want 38 deg. If it is warmer, shorten your aging time. Colder and it isn't doing what you need, but still doing what you don't need. Age it on the bone at least long enough to relieve rigor mortis (3 days?). Use the guide posted above by UWyo.

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Years ago, it wasn't uncommon to hang beef or Red deer (elks smaller cousin) for up to 6 weeks..

These days for our smaller deer most hang for 7 to 14 days depending on temps.

I like to hang in the skin for for say 10 days at just above freezing ( I have a small meat fridge)..I then skin the day before I intend to butcher to allow the meat a final 24 hours to "firm up"..

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Originally Posted by shrapnel


There are experts all over the board on what is best. I wouldn't wait until January to cut it, but once it is cooled through, it is fine from 2 days to 2 weeks...


Works for me.


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Originally Posted by Whttail_in_MT
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
In recent years I've stopped doing it gutless, in spite of the extra work and mess involved, and I haven't had a tough one since.

Why would gutting or not affect toughness? Are you using gutless to mean boneless?
You need to separate the meat from the gut to promote cooling and to prevent the meat from picking up a bad taste as the stomach juices start to break down. Gutting removes the gut from the carcass. Boning removes the meat from the carcass. Either way, the meat and gut get separated.
Gutting has no affect on tenderness. The problem is that meat removed from the skeleton too soon will contract as it cools and that's what causes toughness.


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Originally Posted by saddlesore
The gutless method refers to removing the front quarters, usually with the bone intact and then removing the hind quarters by filleting down to the hip socket from the top of the pelvis and leaving that leg bone intact and then filleting of the backs trap from pelvis to neck. Ending up with the rib cage, spine, neck and head intact without removing the guts.

The tenderloin can be removed by pushing in the paunch and cutting the tenderloins at each end and pulling out. Some back packers bone out the leg bones too.

Yes, I know what the gutless method is. My question wasn't to find out what gutless means, but rather why Rock Chuck stated gutting resulted in more tender animals.

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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Gutting has no affect on tenderness.

Then why did you state earlier that you haven't had a tough one since ceasing to do the gutless method?

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mudhen,

Meat scientists disagree quite a bit, like many other scientists. But due to considerable personal experience I would firmly disagree with: "Meat scientists with whom I have worked tell me that with elk, you're wasting your time and drying the meat excessively if you hang it beyond five days."

I aged the skinned quarters from the biggest bull I've taken for three weeks before there was suddenly a NOTICEABLE difference in tenderness, even from merely slicing the meat. I was continually taking small test cuts from a section of backstrap, pan-frying them quickly to see how they chewed and tasted. The point where the meat changed from semi-tough to pretty tender occurred within a short period of a day or so.

My wife and I keep an 800-pound freight scale in our shop to weigh the animals we take. I weighed the quarters after bringing them in, but didn't hang them. Instead I placed them on a clean blue tarp and covered them with another. Weighed one of the hindquarters after the three weeks and it had lost so little weight I couldn't really tell if it had lost any on the scale.

Our shop normally stays in the 30's during November unless the temperature outside stays well below zero for several days. Normally we don't skin elk taken at that time of year, both because it's normally cool and the bulls haven't been rolling around in any urine-soaked mud for over a month. But the day I got that bull was exceptionally warm, so took the hide off.


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Sorry Whtail in Mt.I misunderstood your post.

John. It really cracks me up when hunter says to leave the hide on when quartering as it keeps the meat cleaner, when the elk is covered with mud, feces, and unrine from a wallow and all that sticky stuff is on the hide from it's pecker up to it's front legs from breeding or in rut.

I had an elk that fell in a beaver pond after I shot it.I had to pull her out using my mule.You can bet she got skinned right away to get all the mud off.


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Vince,

Same deal with moose--which not only tend to roll around in stink-water during the rut, but often end up in other kinds of naturally contaminated water when shot. Two fo the moose my wife and I have taken ended up in nearby water, despite pretty quick-killing shots. My Alaskan bull ended up in a stream full of dying salmon, and my wife's Montana cow ended up in a shallow swamp. Didn't leave the hide on either of those, either.

But my main point is that while many hunters make generalizations about game care, willd animals are all different, not just in species but circumstances. Which is also what my wife Eileen emphasises in her "cookbook" on big game from field to table.


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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
[quote=Whttail_in_MT] The problem is that meat removed from the skeleton too soon will contract as it cools and that's what causes toughness.


I think thats termed "Cold Shortening" and it can happen when the carcass is cooled too quickly..

We have been taught the ideal situtation is for the carcass to naturally loose its body heat at a relatively slow rate.

Weather conditions permiting, once the carcass is gralloched and back at the larder, we will often hang outside the chiller for a few hours to let it cool naturally. Also a warm carcass going into a chiller will often "sweat" which again is best avoided..

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To chime in on several previous posts -

Way too many of my elk are killed in the most impossible places you can imagine.

I have frequently quartered with the hide on because I was going to be dragging quarters over deadfall, skidding over snow (or even dirt), or just because circumstances were that I had to get moving as soon as possible.
Under those circumstances I remove the hide as soon as is reasonable.
Normally I wouldn't choose to do it that way and the benefits of cooling w/o hide are important but it is choices and priorities.

On those few where I have quickly cut all of the meat off the bone for transport in those situations I really felt like those were some of the worse eating ones. I try not to do that unless I have to.

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
mudhen,

Meat scientists disagree quite a bit, like many other scientists. But due to considerable personal experience I would firmly disagree with: "Meat scientists with whom I have worked tell me that with elk, you're wasting your time and drying the meat excessively if you hang it beyond five days."

I aged the skinned quarters from the biggest bull I've taken for three weeks before there was suddenly a NOTICEABLE difference in tenderness, even from merely slicing the meat. I was continually taking small test cuts from a section of backstrap, pan-frying them quickly to see how they chewed and tasted. The point where the meat changed from semi-tough to pretty tender occurred within a short period of a day or so.

My wife and I keep an 800-pound freight scale in our shop to weigh the animals we take. I weighed the quarters after bringing them in, but didn't hang them. Instead I placed them on a clean blue tarp and covered them with another. Weighed one of the hindquarters after the three weeks and it had lost so little weight I couldn't really tell if it had lost any on the scale.

Our shop normally stays in the 30's during November unless the temperature outside stays well below zero for several days. Normally we don't skin elk taken at that time of year, both because it's normally cool and the bulls haven't been rolling around in any urine-soaked mud for over a month. But the day I got that bull was exceptionally warm, so took the hide off.


John,

I share your experience. I didn't want to be disagreeable, rather referencing the above article by UW, which is an objective study on the subject (albeit with a small sample).

My elk typically hang for two weeks. The shop I'm building will have a small insulated room with an air conditioner for aging game (there is an aftermarket purpose-built control that will cool into the 30's). I'm tired of being at the whim of the weather to carry out this critical step in creating proper table fare.

Your wife's cookbook is excellent, and those with game processing questions would do well to get a copy.

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RC thanks, this is a very interesting topic!

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Originally Posted by Colo_Wolf
Best one I ever had mostly froze in a blizzard the night I took him, then hung in my garage for 12 or so days with the hide on at 45*.

The next best didn't even age, we started eating on that one the night of the kill.


So you've shot 2 elk so far. LOL.

Worst meat I've personally had was right after a kill nad put on the grill. Tenderloins of a young deer. HORRIBLY TOUGH


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The problem we usually face is shooting a cow after Xmas in temperatures on either side of 0*. Hanging overnight in a non-insulated shed results in a pretty frozen animal in the morning.
Having no control over our set-up we skin and de-bone pretty much the same day.
As a result, the meat is taken out and thawed a day before the meal and that is where we get some "aging". Been doing it like that for 15 years and have been pretty satisfied with the results.


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Jeff,

Once hunted with a family in their hunting camp in West Virginia, with three generations of the family attending. Somebody killed a deer and that evening the husband of one of the middle generation daughters announced, "I'm going to feed everybody some of the best deer meat ever." Whereupon he took filets from the deer killed maybe 2 hours before, sliced them thin, and fried the slices too slowly in luke-warm vegetable oil. Naturally, they required a LOT of chewing, and didn't taste very good.

The grandmother of the family, the sharpest tack in the family, muttered not quite loud enough for him to hear: "Over-cooked some venison in rigor. Dipschidt...."

A little later the son-in-law was looking for the TV remote and she never mentioned it was lying on her lap, covered by the book she was reading.


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We age at 36* and let our deer hang from 5 to 7 days. Elk from 10 to 14 days. It looks like this [Linked Image]
Great times and a professional meat locker our crew bought and installed is well worth the 800$ a piece.

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The bull I shot in September was aged in game bags in a refrigerator for 8 days. Why 8? That is when I had time to process. This bull also laid out in the woods overnight.

The young cow my son shot was aged in game bags, in same refrigerator for 3 days. Why 3? That is when we had time to process. Cow was broken down and in the refrigerator 5 hours after being shot.

Both are fantastic eating, the cow is actually a little better. But that is no surprise. A young cow vs a mature rutting bull is no contest.

If in a hurry, I have processed immediately and let it age in the refrigerator after being pulled from the freezer.

Eileen's book is one the best common sense books on processing I have read. It re-enforced what I had already learned and would highly recommend it to beginners.


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It has been awhile since this was mentioned, but it can be pretty easy to make walk in cooler for less than $1000 Quite a bit less if you have small room that can be used by insulating.

Cool Bot is device for about $300 that you can buy that lets you use a standard window type air conditioner. It circumvents the air conditioner's thermostat by adding a very small heater to the hair conditioner's temperature sensor so that it can maintain a temperature of 32-40 degrees.

A 10,000 btu air conditioner can be had for about $300 and that will cool an 8x8 room capable of aging meat very well.

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Yep - Saddlesore is right.

Here is a link to an thermostat outlet for a cheap AC unit to make your own DIY meat locker.

http://storeitcold.com


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There's a rule of thumb for hanging meat for tenderness. The enzymes in the meat work faster at higher temps. For every 10F increase in temperature above 35, cut the hanging time in half.

35...14 days
45...7 days
55...3 days
65...1 day
75...eat it now


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Originally Posted by CRS



Eileen's book is one the best common sense books on processing I have read. It re-enforced what I had already learned and would highly recommend it to beginners.


Plus 1. Slice of The Wild is very helpful.

I processed most of my elk yesterday, just have a hind quarter to process and then grind the burger.

Only comment I would make is that I think it would have been better to remove the burger meat, neck and rib meat from the carcass earlier. Maybe if i had a chilled room with 80% humidity it would have been ok, but as is I lost most to drying.

We ate the hanging loins last night in the garlic butter recipe and they were well received.

Only class I regret not taking in highschool- meats class. We had a full butcher shop but the schedules/ tracks did not jive.

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Drying is an issue, which is why I tend to hang a carcass in the jacket until just before skinning. The trade off is that they are then a bitch to skin especially when they've been hung at only a couple degrees above freezing..

I say that but do appreciate that sometimes an elk needs to be skinned asap...

How much meat did you loose do you think?

Is the dried meat really unusable? I believe the drying is only a cosmetic issue, and over here I am sure it ends up used for burgers and sausages?



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Originally Posted by Pete E
I believe the drying is only a cosmetic issue, and over here I am sure it ends up used for burgers and sausages?


I did not save any of the blood for sausage nor did I save all the trimmings for hotdogs. Probably, 25 pounds of trimmings so far.

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This is the end of the first week of hunting with my son. We have deer, antelope and elk. Not one was skinned until it was cut up. Once cooled and hung for around a week, there is no taste or toughness issues on any species. We have killed tons of critters and every year we hang every animal with the skin on until it is cut and year after year, it turns out the same.

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That is interesting... I have always heard antelope especially should be skinned as soon as possible..

Shrapnel, do you use antelope as steaks, roasts, etc.?? I have almost always made mine into jerky.. It makes the best jerky of all.

Do you have any special method for skinning game after leaving the hide on for a week?? I always found it tough to skin game once it got cold..

Finally, do you peel that blueish membrane off the carcass before cutting it up?? That is why I liked to skin my game immediately.. Not only was it easier, but it took that stuff off when I cut the crust off the meat..

Thanks.


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Shrap. I just read your other post on the study of aging game.. I am still interested in your thoughts on my questions, if you don't mind...


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Yes and I have skinned all big game animals I have killed immediately and every year it turns out the same. Darn good eating. Different strokes for different folks and that doesn't make anyone person right.

Especially antelope. Get that hide off those stinky bucks and throw it as far as you can

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saddle, that is what we have always done.. Get things skinned as soon as possible.. But here I often kill my antelope in mid Sept. to late Sept. I often hunt deer in the early season which opens Sept. 15th.. The latest I usually kill my mule deer is the first week in Oct.. Pretty warm at that time of year.


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Originally Posted by WyoCoyoteHunter
saddle, that is what we have always done.. Get things skinned as soon as possible.. But here I often kill my antelope in mid Sept. to late Sept. I often hunt deer in the early season which opens Sept. 15th.. The latest I usually kill my mule deer is the first week in Oct.. Pretty warm at that time of year.


Same here. The deer I killed in ML season was early Sept. Elk in ML season is earlier yet.The moose I killed on Oct 17, it was 60 degrees during the day and not down to freezing at night.The elk I killed on Oct 20 (three days later),the temp was about 55 and the nights were right at freezing.
Any one of those animals would have spoiled if I didn't get the hide off immediately.

My antelope season this year is Dec 6th. We usually kill 2-3 during the day and skin them all that afternoon.

I am fortunate as my hunting partner has small walk in cooler so we are not hanging meat in a dusty old barn or garage. Except for the little bit of drying while we are still out in the field, we see no drying when the meat is in the cooler.Once we get the meat home we usually hose it all off to clean it further. That probbaly helps some to keep it from drying.But truthfully,I have never been concerned about drying. I think hanging without the hide ,also permits any blood to drain out of the meat which also helps the taste.

One year ,I hunted elk in Alberta and it was 25 degrees below zero. Another fellow had killed an elk in late afternoon and they left it until them next morning. It was frozen solid and it took four of us to skin it.

What I do works for me and I don't really care what others do.I am just trying to answer the OP's original question

Last edited by saddlesore; 11/10/15.

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Understood, but I am always interested in what others do and how it works for them.. One year I shot a buck pretty late in the season, and it was below freezing at night.. I let it hang in a big old shed and skinned it down as we wanted meat.
The meat developed ice crystals in it, but never froze solid.. It was excellent..



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Originally Posted by saddlesore

Especially antelope. Get that hide off those stinky bucks and throw it as far as you can


That is BS! People have so many misconceptions about antelope and their musky odor. Unskinned and cared for properly, antelope can be some of the best game meat you get, elk included...


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Antelope rounds make better steaks than elk backstraps.

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For any ungulate, whether skin is on or off, insert a knife blade deep next to the dorsal protrusion in front (neck side) of the withers. Pretty much just the same way you’d begin to remove a backstrap except you aren’t removing anything. Give it the smell test. It will tell the story. This location is at the core of the animal and is one of the most difficult places to get cooled properly. I have detected the odor of sour in as little as a day on a large bull – a well dressed bull and not in particularly warm conditions. For smaller animals the time can be even less.

Do whatever you are going to do but this test has convinced me that anything I can do to cool an animal’s core outweigh any benefit of leaving the skin on.

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Originally Posted by shrapnel
Originally Posted by saddlesore

Especially antelope. Get that hide off those stinky bucks and throw it as far as you can


That is BS! People have so many misconceptions about antelope and their musky odor. Unskinned and cared for properly, antelope can be some of the best game meat you get, elk included...


That is only you opinion of which isn't necessarily fact.

Any off smell on an animal's hide can be easily transferred to the meat. An animal's hide will never add to the taste of any big game ,but it can sure detract from it

I have killed elk in WY,NM ,and CO. Both does and bucks. Everyone that I didn't get the hide of ASAP was poorer meat than those I did.

I like my big game meat so I don't have to smother it or marinade it for a week to cover up strong taste.


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Originally Posted by saddlesore
Originally Posted by shrapnel
Originally Posted by saddlesore

Especially antelope. Get that hide off those stinky bucks and throw it as far as you can


That is BS! People have so many misconceptions about antelope and their musky odor. Unskinned and cared for properly, antelope can be some of the best game meat you get, elk included...


That is only you opinion of which isn't necessarily fact.

Any off smell on an animal's hide can be easily transferred to the meat. An animal's hide will never add to the taste of any big game ,but it can sure detract from it

I have killed elk in WY,NM ,and CO. Both does and bucks. Everyone that I didn't get the hide of ASAP was poorer meat than those I did.

I like my big game meat so I don't have to smother it or marinade it for a week to cover up strong taste.


You were bragging about how well you take care of your game, if you got bad taste from an antelope with the skin left on, it surely wasn't the antelope's fault...


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Originally Posted by rost495


Worst meat I've personally had was right after a kill nad put on the grill. Tenderloins of a young deer. HORRIBLY TOUGH
If you'd waited 6 hrs before cutting it off the corpse, it would likely have been the tenderest meat you've ever eaten. I've made that mistake, too. I cut some loin chops from a fresh kill and cooked them immediately. They were unchewable.


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