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OP
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Just wondering what the pros think, I just bought a savage A17 17 hmr and instantly fell in love with the cartridge. Not only me but everyone of my friends that have shot it went out and bought one. I can't remember having so much fun shooting a gun as we do with this caliber. I can easily see the 22 mag becoming obsolete.
You've got to hand it to a blind prostitute
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Campfire Outfitter
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300 WSM and 6.5 Creed.
Doc
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Campfire Ranger
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Most, if not all developments in your time frame have been more about fitting existing ballistics into smaller actions, AR platforms, etc. Ballistics, aside from improvements due to new propellants, have remained pretty much the same. Better bullets have extended the usefulness of many rounds a bit and faster twists allow longer bullets to be used for increased range.
All of that aside, The 6.5 CM is the one that appeals to me most, even though I don't have one, and likely never will.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Campfire Tracker
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"...One Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for All"
JeffG
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If it isn't the 6.5 Creedmoor I don't know what else it might be.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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Im with the OP....17HMR
Though Im a fan of the .204 as well.....
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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300 BLK for me.......custom AR build in July...
then a Ruger Ranch 3 weeks later.....
Handloader's dream.....
T R U M P W O N !
U L T R A M A G A !
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260 Remington for me........
Gerry.
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I would have said the 7mm08 but its 35 years old
It is not about what you kill, it is about the hunt....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Isn't the 260 older than 20 years?
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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"Best" is a tough one: best for what? Most popular might be the 17 HMR, while the .204 certainly has utility and isn't going away anytime soon. For my use, the 6.5 Creedmoor wins but that's a matter of preference and hunting/shooting interest.
More interesting to me is that all three were developed by Hornady or Hornady collaborating with Ruger. Dave Emary's fingerprints are on all three, unless I'm mistaken. Smart folks at work in Grand Island.
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20 years is not a long time,and as with most cartridges development was designed with first sales in mind and a specific use,or enhancement.P O Ackerly,Roy Weatherby may be the 2 biggest proponents of the enhancement theory.there were others like Whelen.
Now even more than calibers powder developement has been an even bigger jump. the 270,the 25-06 were mediocre rounds until powder was developed to enchance their performance.and pill design has jumped leaps and bounds. these 2 developements have made many calibers even better by making terminal ballistics extraordinary.
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Campfire Ranger
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I can easily see the 22 mag becoming obsolete. Don't hold your breath.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Yeah, the .22 Magnum isn't going anywhere, though there's no doubt the .17 HMR has cut into its market. But the .22 Magnum ise very useful for some tasks the .17 HMR just doesn't do as well. It's much like the difference between the .25-06 and .30-06: Same case but with a vast difference in possible bullet weights and field performance.
But the .17 HMR did provide an entirely different kind of performance than the .22 Magnum. Probably some 5mm Remington fans will argue "their" round did it earlier, but the original Remington 5mm factory load wasn't much different than the .22 Magnum's, which is why the 5mm went tits-up.
Most of the cartridges mentioned so far simply reproduce the ballistics of much older cartridges, but in a shorter package to fit in shorter magazines. The .300 WSM doesn't do anything the .300 H&H won't do, and the same applies to the 6.5 Creedmoor and .260 Remington when comparing them to the 6.5x55, or 7mm-08 and 7x57. That's not revolutionary, just a realistic rearrangement of case shape to conform to modern bolt action magazines.
The .300 Blackout is pretty much exactly the .300 Whisper, which J.D. Jones developed more than 20 years ago. The .204 is interesting, but .20-caliber wildcats on the .223 case have been around much longer than 20 years.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
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I think revolutionary would have been a better question then best. Very interesting stuff. Thank you
You've got to hand it to a blind prostitute
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Though I want to vote for the .260, because I like it so well, I've got to give the .204 Ruger the nod. There were many wildcats, as Mule Deer noted, but this factory round brought .20 caliber performance to anyone with a checkbook and access to a gunstore. My cousin just bought one in a RAR and he loves it. No rebarreling, no custom dies, just a trip to Cabelas and leave with rifle, factory ammo, and a set of dies. And I hate to admit it, but that RAR feels good, functions great, and shoots well.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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17 HMR is without doubt the best round developed in the last 20 years.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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Life Member SCI
Life Member DSC
Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell
Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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Campfire Outfitter
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_________________________________________________________________________
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
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For me it is the .375 Ruger...
jim
LCDR Jim Dodd, USN (Ret.)
"If you're too busy to hunt, you're too busy."
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The one's that I can acquire, and that shoot reasonably well. 😁
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Campfire Tracker
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Nothing newish whatsoever, in rifles holds any interest for me in the last 20 years. I have however, been playing with a S&W 500 for the last 12 years and finding that interesting. Will be using it, which means carrying it, for white tail over the next few weeks.
John
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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Campfire Ranger
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I like the looks of the 6.5 Creedmoor, and the 204 Ruger.
Honestly though, I think the advances in bullets, powder, rangefinders, and scopes have made more of a leap in the state of things, than the newer chamberings.
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Campfire Ranger
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I'll go with the 480 Ruger. A handgun cartridge that offers 30% more frontal area and bullet weight than the 44 mag in a factory revolver that is still packable and shootable by mortals w/o resorting to a muzzle break.
Can't think of a rifle cartridge developed in the past 20 years that can do something that hasn't been done by those in the prior 50 years.
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Campfire Sage
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Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Ranger
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I think that's the best of the WSM's and it's all but gone from any production rifle chambering line-up. Tough to find brass for them too.
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Campfire Ranger
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Irving_D: The best centerfire cartridge to come along in MANY decades is the 204 Ruger!
The best rimfire cartridge to come along in MANY decades is of course the 17 HMR!
Indeed the 22 Magnum is in steep decline.
I share your enthusiasm for the 17 HMR and seldom ever take out any of my various 22 Rimfire Magnum Rifles and pistols.
As far as I am concerned the 17 HMR has indeed COMPLETELY replaced the 22 Magnum.
Long live the 204 Ruger and the 17 HMR.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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Campfire Ranger
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AussieGunWriter: For you (or anyone else!) to overlook the amazing 204 Ruger makes me completely call into question why you would describe yourself (in your nom de plume) as a "gun writer".
Take another look at the amazing performance, accuracy and lethality inherent in the 204 Ruger!
Sheesh.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Last edited by VarmintGuy; 11/09/15.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I don't own one, haven't spent time with one, and and I'm not arguing that it's the best, but the 17WSM is an interesting round. Several have mentioned the 17HMR and I had a lot of fun with it for a while. The 17WSM looks like it could be a lot of fun.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Not sure if it fits into the last 20 years bracket or not, but I really like the 6.8 spc.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I don't own one, haven't spent time with one, and and I'm not arguing that it's the best, but the 17WSM is an interesting round. Several have mentioned the 17HMR and I had a lot of fun with it for a while. The 17WSM looks like it could be a lot of fun. The 17 WSM totally outclasses the 17 HMR. I still use and like the 22 mag and will never replace it with a HMR. Now the WSM does have my interest.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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AussieGunWriter: For you (or anyone else!) to overlook the amazing 204 Ruger makes me completely call into question why you would describe yourself (in your nom de plume) as a "gun writer".
Take another look at the amazing performance, accuracy and lethality inherent in the 204 Ruger!
Sheesh.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy Most of us here on the fire are in awe you don't refer to yourself as El Douche Bag. Sheesh.
Screw you! I'm voting for Trump again!
Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the 24HCF.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Yeah, the .22 Magnum isn't going anywhere, though there's no doubt the .17 HMR has cut into its market. But the .22 Magnum ise very useful for some tasks the .17 HMR just doesn't do as well. It's much like the difference between the .25-06 and .30-06: Same case but with a vast difference in possible bullet weights and field performance.
But the .17 HMR did provide an entirely different kind of performance than the .22 Magnum. Probably some 5mm Remington fans will argue "their" round did it earlier, but the original Remington 5mm factory load wasn't much different than the .22 Magnum's, which is why the 5mm went tits-up.
Most of the cartridges mentioned so far simply reproduce the ballistics of much older cartridges, but in a shorter package to fit in shorter magazines. The .300 WSM doesn't do anything the .300 H&H won't do, and the same applies to the 6.5 Creedmoor and .260 Remington when comparing them to the 6.5x55, or 7mm-08 and 7x57. That's not revolutionary, just a realistic rearrangement of case shape to conform to modern bolt action magazines.
The .300 Blackout is pretty much exactly the .300 Whisper, which J.D. Jones developed more than 20 years ago. The .204 is interesting, but .20-caliber wildcats on the .223 case have been around much longer than 20 years. John, My thoughts are so many shooters who are now 17HMR owners would have not bought a 22 magnum. A entirely new market was created by a new magnum rimfire that utterly failed years earlier with Remingtons 5MM magnum. Marketing a better mouse trap and market timing with more ammo options and more importantly more rifle options led to the 17HMR success. Doc
Last edited by doctor_Encore; 11/09/15.
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Every time I toggle a post of his I'm reminded of why I have him on ignore. I don't have a rifle chambered in anything 60 yrs old or younger but the Creedmoor & 17 HMR are very interesting to me. And anybody who writes about guns is a gun writer... Even Varmintsousche 
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I just bought a .45/70, when did it come out? 
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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jwp,
It will be interesting to see how the .17 WSM does in the long run compared to the .17 HMR, but I've shot both and no, the WSM doesn't totally outclass the HMR. On warm summer days (when much .17 HMR shooting takes place) the standard .17 HMR load with 17-grain bullets at 2550 fps usually gets 2600-2700, and the new .17 HMR load for the Savage autoloader gets about 100 fps more. Have chronographed a couple brands of .17 WSM ammo, and one only got 2900 with a 20-grain under similar conditions, though the other did get the advertised 3000.
The other factor is that the .17 HMR immediately appeared in a bunch of affordable rifles, and almost all shot very accurately. The most affordable .17 WSM rifle is hit-and-miss, literally, and most others cost more than the average hunter wants to pay.
The .17 HMR definitely outclasses the .22 Magnum on small varmints, because it’s normally more accurate, drifts less in the wind, and shoots flatter—and these days the ammo is also far more available. I suspect the .22 Magnum is being turned into a niche cartridge for larger varmints, and the .17 WSM will take a big bite out of it at that end too. There are too many .22 Magnum rifles and handguns out there for the round to ever become obsolete, but it’s niche has definitely been invaded by the .17 HMR and WSM.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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jwp,
It will be interesting to see how the .17 WSM does in the long run compared to the .17 HMR, but I've shot both and no, the WSM doesn't totally outclass the HMR. On warm summer days (when much .17 HMR shooting takes place) the standard .17 HMR load with 17-grain bullets at 2550 fps usually gets 2600-2700, and the new .17 HMR load for the Savage autoloader gets about 100 fps more. Have chronographed a couple brands of .17 WSM ammo, and one only got 2900 with a 20-grain under similar conditions, though the other did get the advertised 3000.
The other factor is that the .17 HMR immediately appeared in a bunch of affordable rifles, and almost all shot very accurately. The most affordable .17 WSM rifle is hit-and-miss, literally, and most others cost more than the average hunter wants to pay.
The .17 HMR definitely outclasses the .22 Magnum on small varmints, because it’s normally more accurate, drifts less in the wind, and shoots flatter—and these days the ammo is also far more available. I suspect the .22 Magnum is being turned into a niche cartridge for larger varmints, and the .17 WSM will take a big bite out of it at that end too. There are too many .22 Magnum rifles and handguns out there for the round to ever become obsolete, but it’s niche has definitely been invaded by the .17 HMR and WSM.
Just looking at the ballistics the WSM is faster with a 20 grain bullet than the HMR is with a 17 grain bullet. That is out classed ballisticly in my mind, but I have only compaired them on paper and cannot commit about accuracy or performance verses each other and bow to your first hand experience.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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7x57 Mauser, of course!  Oh, I thought y'all mean't in the last 120 years!  Seriously, though, I've got to go with the 17 HMR for rifles, and the .480 Ruger for handguns.
Last edited by chlinstructor; 11/09/15.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston
Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Ranger
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Whats the best cartridge developed in last 20 years 280 Rem, followed closely by the 270 Win, 30-06 & the 22LR MM
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260 Remington for me........ I agree. My little Model 7 is 6.5 x 54mm in new clothes. I have at least 5 friends who would Shout .204 Ruger.
Slim
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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No such beast. Everyone has their own ideas.
I"ll never have a 17hmr, etc... no use for them.
If I can't do it with a 22lr I resort to larger stuff than just a tiny jump. Just me.
WSM, maybe the best of the bunch, short fat like accurate PPC cases, but I"ve never found the need to own one.
Would be 7wsm if I felt the need.
In fact in the last 20 years, I can't think of anything new at all that I've had a need for. I've done and bought new guns, but no new calibers.
Well actually now that we talk.. I did get a 6WOA, thats probably as new as it gets that I can think of. Maybe the 50 beowulf.
But there in is the hitch, we don't all have the same requirements, so why would anyone agree as to whats best.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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I like my 480 and 204 Rugers a lot.
And I'll add the 450 Bushmaster to the list..........
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17 Hornet gets my vote, however some will argue it's been around much longer than 20 years as a wildcat.
Has more appeal than the HMR to me because you can roll your own ammo.
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Campfire Tracker
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If .22 Mag is in decline it's because there's no ammo around!
Decent amount of .17 HMR around and scads of .17 WSM (but no guns locally).
When Remington standardized the .260 18 years ago, it became the best descendant of the .308; but got soft spot for 6.8 SPC & .300 BO/Whisper. All killer Dillers.
Last edited by ColdCase1984; 11/09/15.
�When in doubt, I whip it out.� Uncle Ted ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v704/elrata/imagejpg1_zps585f4bbf.jpg)
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Campfire Outfitter
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![[Linked Image]](http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j312/99trix/303savshell003.jpg) Everyone is going to have an opinion. I don't think there's a winner. I judge cartridges differently than most. They are works of art. For me to think of it as good, or worthy of use, it has to be visually appealing. There are so many cartridges floating around these days - both old and new - that nothing made since 1990 has caught my eye. I did own a 17 HMR, but it didn't do anything for me. It does something for you though, and that's good. I like a nice shape. A hard, yet pleasing form. A sultry shoulder, with a suggestive bullet profile that you know will work, just by looking at it. Admittedly, I'm partial to rimmed cartridges. They have lines that appeal to me. These are the cartridges and bullets I like. Nothing made in the last twenty years tickles my fancy. That doesn't mean I'm stuck in the past. It just means no company or individual has excited my neural pathways. I hope they keep trying. ![[Linked Image]](http://static.skynetblogs.be/media/27895/1213263158.JPG) ![[Linked Image]](http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr179/S_Redgwell/Bullet%20Making/WIA5348_zpsdd77e7e2.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://www.lasc.us/444castbullets.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://www.gunmart.net/images/content/accessories_reviews/4959/01.jpg)
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/AP39Jhm.jpg)
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The 338 Federal deserves some consideration here. It duplicates the 30-06 ballistics while burning about 15% less powder. That's pretty important during the powder shortages we have been seeing the past few years.
It seems that none of the new cartridges do anything that wasn't already being done, but they do give us a reason to buy new toys!
Wag more, bark less.
The freedoms we surrender today will be the freedoms our grandchildren will never know existed.
The men who wrote the Second Amendment didn't just finish a hunting trip, they just finished liberating a nation.
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500 S&W ,475 Linebaugh .great in Revolvers or Leveractions.The ultimate big bear stoppers,moose slappers biggest baddest mofos commercially made.
Its all right to be white!!
Stupidity left unattended will run rampant
Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
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Campfire Ranger
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In the last 20 years, it would seem to me the 300WSM has had the most influence.
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Campfire Ranger
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The AR15 is the biggest thing in the last 20 years.
The dramatic growth and development of Eugene Stoner's brainchild is hands down the winner
Honorable mention to the 17 HMR
"The Church can and should help modern society by tirelessly insisting that the work of women in the home be recognized and respected by all in its irreplaceable value." Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II
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Any vote I would lodge has already been voted. I like the .17HMR, .204R, 6.8SPC, .260R and .375R. For its intended purpose, 6.5CRM seems to be pretty awesome, too. Second the Hornady/Ruger props.
I want to like the 17WSM, but there are two reasons I find it difficult to do so. It's too long to work in existing rimfire magnum actions, at least that's what I've been told by the manufacturers I've asked. So you're kinda stuck with either a Savage or an advanced custom project if you want to try it, until some other manufacturer gets behind it. If CZ did, I'd buy one for sure.
The other reason is that they don't make it in a .20 or .22 cal. I imagine a 32-40 gr varmint bullet in .224WSM would be a pretty sweet package. Wouldn't make the 3kfps claim of the .17, but it should be more efficient at generating ft-lb at the muzzle (yeah, yeah, that's not all that matters, blah blah blah) and might even have a bigger advantage over .22WMR than the .17 has over the HMR. If it could deliver nearly the same velocities and trajectories as the HMR with double the projectile mass, that would be worth something, and would probably be more interesting to me than a .17 going just a little faster. With the greater expansion ratio of the larger bore, you'd probably get 98% of all the velocity you'll ever get by the end of a 16" barrel, making for some really handy little packages.
Last edited by OlongJohnson; 11/09/15.
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Everyone is going to have an opinion. I don't think there's a winner. That may be true ?.?.?., but the ones you list are loser's....for the most part. Sorry 
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Isn't the 260 older than 20 years? It appeared in 1997 I believe along with the 7mm STW, who would have thought at the time the 260 would be doing better than the big STW 18 years later? I got in very quickly when it was announced, I had decided to get a 7mm-08 and put in an order for one but within a couple of days found out about the new 260 Rem and changed the order. Have not been disappointed even a little bit with it. Really like to good old 6.5x55 as well.......
Gerry.
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Is the .40 s&w under 20 years old? It has developed into a major player in its relative short existence.
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Damn, can't believe no one has mentioned the obvious choice, the .30 TC! 
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Everyone is going to have an opinion. I don't think there's a winner. That may be true ?.?.?., but the ones you list are loser's....for the most part. Sorry No, none of them are losers. They just don't appeal to you. Sorry
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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The 338 Federal deserves some consideration here. It duplicates the 30-06 ballistics It'll shoot the same bullet weights to the same speed at the muzzle. But with some of the 30 caliber bullets with BC's in the high .6's vs low .4's in the 33 calibers it means the 30-06 is about 100 fps faster at 100 yards. And the gap grows as range increases. Even a 308 shooting the same bullet weights 200 fps slower than 338 Fed will match it at 200 yards and beat it at longer ranges.
Most people don't really want the truth.
They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
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30 Remington AR (already dead) as it turns a AR15 platform into a 300 Savage. It's a terrible shame that Remington pulled a Remington on this round.
The .458 SOCOM would def get honorable mention, as it offers a ton of power and some truly powerful subsonic options...it's a 45-70 in a AR Carbine. Before you ask, the answer is "because you can"
I like my .480 Ruger and think it's a impressive round. It's a 44 Mag and a half, in much the same way a .375 is a 30-06 and a half. LIke the '06 and .375 it does it with no fuss.
I haven't picked up a .204 yet, I think it's a noteworthy FACTORY round, but I probably will before spring.
The 17HMR, even the HM2, are benchmark cartridges from my perspective.
Last edited by kciH; 11/09/15.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." TJ
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". EB
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The 17 HMR stands out for me as well. The 6.5 CM intrigues me, but doesn't really fill any voids. The other one that jumps out for me is the 480 Ruger.
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I liked Steve's post.
I also think old cartridges are more likeable and the .303 is still hard to beat as a big game cartridge.
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AussieGunWriter: For you (or anyone else!) to overlook the amazing 204 Ruger makes me completely call into question why you would describe yourself (in your nom de plume) as a "gun writer".
Take another look at the amazing performance, accuracy and lethality inherent in the 204 Ruger!
Sheesh.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy Most of us here on the fire are in awe you don't refer to yourself as El Douche Bag. Sheesh. Fuggin rollin here! Thanks.
Sean
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The 338 Federal deserves some consideration here. It duplicates the 30-06 ballistics while burning about 15% less powder. That's pretty important during the powder shortages we have been seeing the past few years. TFF!!!!! I guess 99.9% of the hunting public missed that gem of logic!!!!
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle. I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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AussieGunWriter: For you (or anyone else!) to overlook the amazing 204 Ruger makes me completely call into question why you would describe yourself (in your nom de plume) as a "gun writer".
Take another look at the amazing performance, accuracy and lethality inherent in the 204 Ruger!
Sheesh.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy I have a personal hang up which I am fond of. I despise small bore rifles, especially cleaning them. Apart from rimfire, my smallest personal rifle is a .25/06 which I like, though will move up to possibly 7mm when the barrel changes. It would be simply abhorent for me to play with a sub .224 caliber as even those are repulsive to me. There is a big difference between reviewing a provided rifle and owning one yourself. But.....and there is always a "but", the thread asks for our opinion and I gave it. John
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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500 S&W ,475 Linebaugh .great in Revolvers or Leveractions.The ultimate big bear stoppers,moose slappers biggest baddest mofos commercially made. The 475 has been with us for 30 years.
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I don't know if they are the best and they have already been mentioned but some that I can think about that appear to have so staying power so far are the .260 Rem, .300WSM and .375 Ruger. That they are my three main cartridges is just an un-bias coincidence. 
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I'll cast my vote for the 270 Win. All though pretty gay, I'm sure it was invented by Ingwe about 1996.
Beware of thieves, scammers and dishonest members on the "Fire" classifieds. Ya there is a thief here too. Whatever!!
They're all around the CampFire and everywhere.
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I believe the sales numbers will show that the 300WSM has been the best of all the "short magnums" and also the best cartridge developed in the last 20 years.
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
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Everyone is going to have an opinion. I don't think there's a winner. I judge cartridges differently than most. They are works of art. For me to think of it as good, or worthy of use, it has to be visually appealing. There are so many cartridges floating around these days - both old and new - that nothing made since 1990 has caught my eye. I did own a 17 HMR, but it didn't do anything for me. It does something for you though, and that's good. I like a nice shape. A hard, yet pleasing form. A sultry shoulder, with a suggestive bullet profile that you know will work, just by looking at it. Admittedly, I'm partial to rimmed cartridges. They have lines that appeal to me. These are the cartridges and bullets I like. Nothing made in the last twenty years tickles my fancy. That doesn't mean I'm stuck in the past. It just means no company or individual has excited my neural pathways. I hope they keep trying. That is one seriously sexy line-up Steve. Could not agree more with you (but I would add a few to the list).
USMC 0351
We know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
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260 Remington for me........ Ken Waters was ahead of the curve, he called it a 263Express, ca. 1962 so more than 20 years old.. A dandy none the less, I have two. My vote goes to 6.5Creedmoor.
"Camping places fix themselves in your mind as if you had spent long periods of your life in them.
You will remember a curve of your wagon track in the grass of the plain like the features of a friend."
Isak Dinesen
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Very interesting opinions thank you. I think the calibers that intrigue me the most are the 204, 500 s&w 460 s&w especially if marlin chambered them. The 50 Beowulf hasn't been mentioned but I would love to play with it.
You've got to hand it to a blind prostitute
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In the last 20 years, it would seem to me the 300WSM has had the most influence. My vote too. It provides near 300 Win Mag ballistics in a short action. That's pretty slick. It's a tribute to the 30-06 that it took 100 years to come up with a cartridge that improves on it.
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I'm partial to the 338 Fed. Works fantastic for what I typically do, which is deer, elk, hogs and African plains game out to 400yds, maybe 500 max.
The 6.5 CM intrigues me though.
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In relation to the .17 HMR, a bloke in Australia named Arthur Langsford came out with a line of .17 rimfires in about the early 1970s. At least one, the .17 Tini-Mite, was available commercially from his shop. The .17 Tini-Mite used a .22 shot case (a bit longer than .22 LR) necked down to .17, and a 20 gn bullet was loaded to 3000 fps. There was also a .17 Vixen, on a .22 Mag case, and a .17 Minor Mite on the .22 LR case.
Back in the 70s .17-calibres were popular here, because the price of fox skins for the fur trade was so high - as long as they didn't have big holes in them. Blokes were going out spotlighting and making a fortune at it.
Unfortunately Langsford apparently had difficulties getting a reliable supply of primed cases, and couldn't get the momentum going on this one. As I think JB said earlier in this thread, you need to be able to hit the market with good supply, well distributed, of both rifles and ammo, to give something like this a good chance of lasting success.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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260 Remington for me........ Ken Waters was ahead of the curve, he called it a 263Express, ca. 1962 so more than 20 years old.. A dandy none the less, I have two. My vote goes to 6.5Creedmoor. Yup. Hardly anything in the way of CF cartridges is really "new" in the last 20 years. Just because something has reached a current degree of commercial recognition does not make it "new". It took exactly 7 years to beat the 30/06 in a belt less case; not 100 years. They called it the 30 Newton which gave a 172 gr bullet 3000 fps. Even older than the 300 H&H IIRC.It was loaded commercially by Western cartridge company. The 300 WSM is nothing more than the old Wade short magnums originally developed by a California gunsmith in the 1950's. They were made by blowing out,and necking down a 348 Winchester case,and cutting in an extractor groove. The 375 Ruger is nothing more than the 30 Newton necked up with minor modifications;much like the old 35 Newton.I am pretty sure such numbers as the 7mm LRM are just a 375 Ruger aka 30 Newton necked to 7mm. People were blowing out and necking down 404 Jeffrey cases a long time before anyone even heard of the RUM line of cartridges. Even the 6.5 Creed is just a 250 Savage case, improved and necked to 6.5. What we are all shooting are simply old ideas dredged out of the ashes and recycled with a modern twist. We had all the cases we needed by maybe 1970. The real improvements have been in propellants and bullets. The cartridges are mostly window dressing based on minor refinements..
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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What Bob said. I don't understand the Creed hype but I have two 6.5x55. The only "newer" rounds I've bought are the 338 Federal and the 6.8 SPC. I really like both rounds but the 338 Federal doesn't do anything a dozen other rounds won't do. The 6.8 SPC & the 6.5 Grendel seem to maximize performance out of an AR when it comes to bullet weight, velocity & ballistic coefficient. The Blackout is not a new round, it's the 300 Whisper marketed beautifully by Remington. They are interchangeable and the Whisper has been around for 20+ years.
Scott
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The real improvements have been in propellants and bullets. The cartridges are mostly window dressing based on minor refinements.. That about sums it up. Bob, cutting to the chase and waxing eloquent as usual... DF
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It took exactly 7 years to beat the 30/06 in a belt less case; not 100 years. They called it the 30 Newton which gave a 172 gr bullet 3000 fps. Even older than the 300 H&H IIRC.It was loaded commercially by Western cartridge company.
How'd that work out? Still not short action.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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It took exactly 7 years to beat the 30/06 in a belt less case; not 100 years. They called it the 30 Newton which gave a 172 gr bullet 3000 fps. Even older than the 300 H&H IIRC.It was loaded commercially by Western cartridge company.
How'd that work out? Still not short action. See comment above about the Wade short magnums. The stuff existed in the 50's,so "no" it didn't take 100 years. I am one who does not consider the WSM's to be a big deal (having owned and sold them all) and don't consider the WSMs anything special. But that's just me.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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The real improvements have been in propellants and bullets. The cartridges are mostly window dressing based on minor refinements.. That about sums it up. Bob, cutting to the chase and waxing "ELEPHANT" as usual... DF Fixed it for ya. Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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12 gauge saboted slugs for firing in rifled shotgun barrels.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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260 Remington for me........ Ken Waters was ahead of the curve, he called it a 263Express, ca. 1962 so more than 20 years old.. A dandy none the less, I have two. My vote goes to 6.5Creedmoor. Yup. Hardly anything in the way of CF cartridges is really "new" in the last 20 years. Just because something has reached a current degree of commercial recognition does not make it "new". It took exactly 7 years to beat the 30/06 in a belt less case; not 100 years. They called it the 30 Newton which gave a 172 gr bullet 3000 fps. Even older than the 300 H&H IIRC.It was loaded commercially by Western cartridge company. The 300 WSM is nothing more than the old Wade short magnums originally developed by a California gunsmith in the 1950's. They were made by blowing out,and necking down a 348 Winchester case,and cutting in an extractor groove. The 375 Ruger is nothing more than the 30 Newton necked up with minor modifications;much like the old 35 Newton.I am pretty sure such numbers as the 7mm LRM are just a 375 Ruger aka 30 Newton necked to 7mm. People were blowing out and necking down 404 Jeffrey cases a long time before anyone even heard of the RUM line of cartridges. Even the 6.5 Creed is just a 250 Savage case, improved and necked to 6.5. What we are all shooting are simply old ideas dredged out of the ashes and recycled with a modern twist. We had all the cases we needed by maybe 1970. The real improvements have been in propellants and bullets. The cartridges are mostly window dressing based on minor refinements.. third case from the left, 11.2x72 Schuler that came out about 1904....fairly straight sided, rebated rim thoroughly "modern" looking case 110 years old. (l to r: 577 nitro, 470 Nitro, 11.2x72 Schuler, 260Rem, 6.5x54MS and 223 Rem) ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/rattler_mt/guns/NCM_0007_zps85wwrzpd.jpg)
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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Don't interpret my response as negative, that's not the way I intend it.
A few have mentioned the same idea (feeling) I have. Nothing in the past 20 yrs has come out that attracts me enuff to have purchased it.
First of all, short actions don't make me goo goo and gaa gaa.
Secondly, the 30-06 can handle everything from mice to Brown Bear, see Phil Shoemaker on that. Oh I forgot, the 06 hurts when you shoot it..(yeah that's sarcasm.)
Thirdly, I've been set up for loading the 7mm RM and the 300 WM and 8mm RM so long it would only cost me $$$ to change or add any short mag>>that CAN'T DO anything better ballistically.
As to competitors of the 22 Mag, mine does all I need done. I have a 6mm Rem for longer range or larger animals.
So I'm quite content with established rounds.
Someone on the fire says, "happily stuck in the past". That suits me.
Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The real improvements have been in propellants and bullets. The cartridges are mostly window dressing based on minor refinements.. That about sums it up. Bob, cutting to the chase and waxing "ELEPHANT" as usual... DF Fixed it for ya. Jerry DF
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I'll cast my vote for the 270 Win. All though pretty gay, I'm sure it was invented by Ingwe about 1996. I don't either.....yet, but think the 17 rimfires are pretty cool along with the .338 Federal. I hesitate to buy anything rimfire and be at the mercy of the manufacturer/hoarders so therefor no 17's and I may never get around to a .338 as I now have a 9.3. But seeing as how Missouri Ed brought some humor to the thread, I figured I get us back to reality (campfire reality that is) My vote for "best" is the .25 TCM, not the .22 TCM but that case necked up to .25. I know it's less than 20 YO because I just "developed" it as I was reading this thread, therefor it's " the best"! I intend to use it in my Ruger BH with the .25 cal bbl. I already have cylinders for 25-20 and .256 WinMag so I will have a new cylinder made for the new round. Yes, I know it is rimless, that's OK too, I'm getting moonie clips made. Case capacity is similar to the 25-20 around 18-19 gr so I'm sure I can get it to do anything the old gal can do but in a newer "dress" without a rim. I think it'll fit in a shorter action too, that's important right? I'm actually thinking I might be able to whip her up around the .256WM speeds, again the impotence of going rimless can't be stressed enough. We are in the 21st century you know. I might even be able to get it to exceed the .256 as I'm seriously considering having the chamber mouths (maybe even the forcing cone) impregnated with carmalube, cermaoil, or whatever that stuff is. Maybe the best part is I think the magazines from the parent pistol can be made to work with the .25 cal version and then I just get a .25 cal bbl and I'll have a 1911 that can shoot .22, .25 and 9mm all in on one frame. UBER, right guys? Geno PS, next on the drawing board is a .30 cal version to try to reach .30 Luger and/or 7.62 Tokarev stats in a "modern" platform.
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men.
In it is contentment
In it is death and all you seek
(Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
member of the cabal of dysfunctional squirrels?
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Even birds know not to land downwind!
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What do you prefer:
Blondes, Brunettes, or Red Heads??
Even birds know not to land downwind!
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The resurgent 280 Ackley being standardized and brought out of obscurity should get some consideration.
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I think the main draw to the 6.5CM is the full support from Hornady, not anything ballistic ally.
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The 6.5 Creedmoor has excellent factory ballistics.
You get the 140 Amax with a BC over .600, at a velocity over 2700 fps.
That combo gives long legs to a very user-friendly chambering.
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The 6.5 Creedmoor has excellent factory ballistics.
You get the 140 Amax with a BC over .600, at a velocity over 2700 fps.
That combo gives long legs to a very user-friendly chambering.
Agreed. Hornady just made it user friendly and easy at an affordable price.
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Just wondering what the pros think, I just bought a savage A17 17 hmr and instantly fell in love with the cartridge. Not only me but everyone of my friends that have shot it went out and bought one. I can't remember having so much fun shooting a gun as we do with this caliber. I can easily see the 22 mag becoming obsolete. ...........A good question and a very loaded question too. How should "best cartridge" be defined? A completely new cartridge and caliber? Or with a case design improvement on an existing caliber/bullet diameter family? Both? There have been a few new variations in case design within the same caliber family. As one example the 375 Ruger. A shorter fatter case design that holds more powder than the H&H casing, which in turn achieves the same ballistic performance from rifles with shorter barrels and somewhat shorter actions. A casing improvement that has led to shorter OAL 375 Ruger rifles. For those who like 375 H&H ballistics from shorter OAL rifles, then some including me, would consider that good cartridge development, innovation or redesign over the past 20 years. Though the 300 WSM cannot quite dulpicate (only but by a small velocity margin) 300 Win Mag ballistics, some prefer the shorter actions and lighter rifles the 300 WSMs are chambered in. A good cartridge development there? Some think so and I do as well. Imo, when there is any discussion about what is the best cartridge developed over the last few years, then any design improvements in rifles that correspond to any new cartridge/existing cartridge development, should also be considered in the equation. Whichever the best cartridge developed over the last 20 years is, it still needs a rifle to fire it.
28 Nosler,,,,300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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How should the best cartridge be defined?
One that's not dead.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Outfitter
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BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!....LOL
28 Nosler,,,,300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger
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Agree on the 17HMR. Going to have a 6.5 Creedmoore or x47 built next year.
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Campfire Tracker
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What do you prefer:
Blondes, Brunettes, or Red Heads?? D) All the above.
Last edited by kciH; 11/11/15.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." TJ
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". EB
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12 gauge saboted slugs for firing in rifled shotgun barrels. Wouldn't have thought of that, however this really changed deer hunting in slug-only states.
Only a fool would sell an accurate .30-06
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Campfire Tracker
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The 9.3x62.....Given an new spike in interest since JB figured out its true potential and shared it with the rest of us. There's the 9.3 as it was from 1905-2000, and then the post 2000 9.3. Thanks JB!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The 9.3x62.....Given an new spike in interest since JB figured out its true potential and shared it with the rest of us. There's the 9.3 as it was from 1905-2000, and then the post 2000 9.3. Thanks JB! Quite old, but sorta new (at least to those of us who have that round in modern rifles). Modern pressure loads do wake it up... DF
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12 gauge saboted slugs for firing in rifled shotgun barrels. Wouldn't have thought of that, however this really changed deer hunting in slug-only states. More the last 50 years than the last 20 though. There again, a lot of developments in world of cartridges are older than is commonly realised.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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The 30-06!! While not developed in the last 20 years, it is the king and has survived for over 110 years!!!! This record trumps any new cartridge!
I love the 30-06, but, of course, three bourbons tonight might cloud my opinion! But then, it is a great cartridge.
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Campfire Ranger
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I'd say 338 Fed for my uses.
"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
Thomas Jefferson
GeoW, The "Unwoke" ...Let's go Brandon!
"A Well Regulated Militia" Life Member
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Campfire Greenhorn
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For me, 6.8spc or 6.5 Creedmoor.
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.458 SOCOM, it's a .45-70 in an autoloader.
If you fancy long range, I think the 28 Nosler is going to make an impact. It duplicates ballistics available in wildcats but as a factory offering it's pretty impressive.
“You never need fear a man, no matter what his size. When danger threatens, call on me, and I will equalize.”
Samuel Colt.
�Common sense is genius dressed up in work clothes.� - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Campfire Ranger
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Looks like the 17HMR, 204 Ruger and 6.5 Creedmoor are seeing more mentions than the others. I own a 17 and a Creedmoor and see why they have found favor.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Looks like the 17HMR, 204 Ruger and 6.5 Creedmoor are seeing more mentions than the others. I own a 17 and a Creedmoor and see why they have found favor. Common denominator, Steve Hornady and Dave Emary. What a go, guys... DF
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Campfire Kahuna
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Then there's the Hornady version of the .17 Hornet, which is also apparently doing quite well, and in some ways is superior to the wildcat .17 Hornet.
I wondered why Hornady made it a little shorter, but then realized one of the consistent problems with the .22 Hornet is fitting ammo loaded with plastic-tipped 40-grain bullets in most Hornet magazines. The 35-grain Hornady V-Max isn't nearly as good ballistically as a 40-grain V-Max, and the same problem would also arise with 20-25 grain V-Maxes in the "full length" .17 Hornet. Shortening the case a little (something done for a similar reason with the 6.5 Creedmoor) solved the problem, and with today's powders the .17 Hornady Hornet can match or even exceed the velocities from the wildcat .17 Hornet.
Hornady also hasn't done too bad with some of their other cartridges they've developed with Ruger, especially the .375, though the .300 and .338 RCM's haven't done so well. Hornady seems to be batting for a higher average than most other companies with new cartridge introductions since 2000.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Just wondering what the pros think, I just bought a savage A17 17 hmr and instantly fell in love with the cartridge. Not only me but everyone of my friends that have shot it went out and bought one. I can't remember having so much fun shooting a gun as we do with this caliber. I can easily see the 22 mag becoming obsolete. The answer to your question would be best answered by the ammo manufacturers......
I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave....
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I'd have to agree with this. Though it is not my personal pick I've heard more about the 17 HMR I believe than any new cartridge. For myself personally I'm still getting it done with a 22LR. If the 22 is lacking I step up to the 223. FOREST
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6.5X47 Lapua. The creed case, and the 300 WSM.
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I don't kow how a feller could resist adding his two cents to this thread...
I am an old guy who really likes to shoot. I like guns that don't kick my brains loose so I can actually have fun shooting them. I have long since quit playing that silly game so beloved by the human male called "Mine's bigger than your's".
I vote for the 17 HMR. I bought mine about five years ago and spent a couple of years accurizing it. The last year I made a custom stock for it. I can shoot it in small, informal benchrest matches, can hunt small game with it and it's light and easy to carry in the field.
There's one old writer whose works I really revered... no names but... short guy, big hat. The old phartte had a way with words. The last article I read of his, he was hunting antelope with a 338 mag. Made me wonder what he would take on a grizzly bear hunt... I mean, how do you carry around a 6" cannon from a battleship?
If you really like to shoot... the 17 HMR is an absolute delight.
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Campfire Outfitter
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So much for the LAST 20 years. What will be the best--or even a useful--cartridge developed in the NEXT 20 years? It seems to to me that there are almost no remaining gaps that could be filled.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Campfire Outfitter
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So much for the LAST 20 years. What will be the best--or even a useful--cartridge developed in the NEXT 20 years? It seems to to me that there are almost no remaining gaps that could be filled. Nothing new in the centerfire will come along until the ammo manufactures can produce ammo other than the top 10 cartridges in sales volume. Doc
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Oh, they'll still try, because once in a while a new cartridge takes off and sells a bunch of rifles. But most new rounds lose money, because it takes considerable money to develop one, which means they've got to sell a lot of rifles to break even.
I must comment for the second time on this thread that most of the "new" centerfire cartridges mentioned on this thread are just tweaks of really old cartridges, especially the various 6.5's mentioned. Several that not many Americans even know existed appeared very early on in Europe, and even the .260 was a wildcat long before Remington and Jim Carmichel claimed to "develop" it. I believe Ken Waters made up his version, called the .263 Express, in the early 1960's.
Even the .300 WSM is just another version of wildcats going back to the 1950's, and all it does is reproduce the .300 H&H in a shorter case. Of course, some people still believe Winchester's PR claims that the .300 WSM's case shape results in ballistic magic allowing higher velocities with less powder than other .300's, but so far no pressure-testing has found that magic.
The main reason so many shooters believe many cartridges are "new" is most shooters don't know much about the history of cartridge development. I suppose even the .17 HMR could be considered a tweak of the 5mm Remington--but unlike Remington, Hornady didn't try to develop a rimfire cartridge to directly compete with Winchester's .22 Magnum.
The original factory load of the 5mm was a 38-grain bullet at a claimed 2100 fps, but it simply didn't exceed the original 40-grain load of the .22 Magnum by enough to make any difference, especially in public perception. But the .17 HMR's an entirely different deal ballistically, using much lighter bullets at much higher velocity--and is also consistently far more accurate than the .22 Magnum. Which is why it became so popular, so quickly.
In contrast, most of the new cartridges mentioned here don't do anything much older cartridges didn't do ballistically, except fit in shorter magazines. But that's because shorter actions became popular, requiring new cartridges to fit them. The basic ballistic performance isn't any different than a pile of other rounds that were developed long ago, some more than a century.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Tracker
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IF anyone is saying the 6.5 Creedmore then they should really be saying the 260 Remington as for all practical purposes they're the same round that fits in the same action and shoots the same bullets. All the Creedmore did was split the popularity between the two which will pretty much mean neither will gain the popularity that they should as they're great rounds.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Yeah, they're both at least as good as the 6.5x54 Mauser (not Mannlicher-Schoenauer), which appeared around 1900 for use in short Mauser actions.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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6.5CM and .260 don't shoot all the same bullets equally well. When you get into the really long-nose, heavier bullets developed for long-range shooting, the CM works just a little better. And since competition is all about stacking up tiny advantages, once the idea existed, the reality had to be created.
If the CM had been standardized first, there would be no reason for the .260 to exist. But with the history that's out there (short as it is) for the .260, there has been a body of load data developed that doesn't exist yet for the CM. So if I want to have a good choice of hunting bullets with lab-safe load data, and don't care about long range competition so much, the .260 is currently a better choice. IMO.
Load data is also what distinguishes both of these from the 6.5x55 in my mind. Plenty of people say you can load the 6.5 to higher pressures for modern rifles, but I've searched, and when it comes to lab-tested data from reputable companies, even the data indicated as being for modern rifles only still doesn't give the velocities of the SA newcomers. Until I become more of a gambler or buy a strain gauge setup, the newer cartridges seem to have an edge. All of them will kill stuff just fine, of course.
As for the next 20 years...
The past year and a half has seen the spark and flameout of something that could have been really cool for the AR platform. .375 Reaper is basically 300 Blackout done with a .308 case. A short-range hammer with no concerns about cost or availability of cases. Unfortunately, the guy who first tried to commercialize it was such a poor business person that the round is for all intents and purposes stillborn. From an outsider's perspective, it seems that the guy was far more interested in promoting how incredibly smart he was to have the idea and extracting every dollar he could get his hands on RIGHT NOW than to take the simple steps necessary to build a user base for a wildcat and develop some modest commercial legs. It will be a few years before anyone could expect to do anything with the concept without the guy trying to slap a lawsuit on them. Maybe he'll end up having to go through bankruptcy, and someone will get the right to develop the idea without unnecessary legal expenses. Currently, the people who were ready to go once there was something to actually buy are either trying to forget about it or changing lanes to .375 Socom.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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OlongJohnson,
You should look up Vihtavuori data for the 6.5x55, as they list one load giving well over 2800 fps with 140's in a 26-inch barrel. Unlike American companies, Europeans aren't afraid to be provide modern data. That's somewhat irrelevant, however, because short actions have become the standard for smaller 6.5 cartridges in the U.S.A.
Many shoopters think a strain-gauge will reveal the "real" pressure of their handloads. In reality, a strain-gauge doesn't provide actual pressures, and direct strain-gauge readings typically run lower than piezo-electronic readings. This is all presented clearly in the A-Square manual by Dr. Gary Minton, who was in charge of the ballistics and ammo department at A-Square, but a number of other professional ballistic lab people told me the same things over the years. Strain gauges are used widely in the ammo and bullet business, but are reasonably accurate only when their readings can be adjusted with reference ammunition worked up with piezo equipment.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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I think what we really need is some rounds built for the AR15 frame (maybe with some modification) that are truley effective deer rounds. Yes I know the 223 with the right bullets will do it as will the 300Black Out and 6.8SPC but in honesty they're all on the small side. The AR10 frame is so big and heavy that it's not nearly as handy as the AR15 frame.
Some company needs to take this by the horns instead of just making the same thing that 50 other companies are making right now.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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Oh, they'll still try, because once in a while a new cartridge takes off and sells a bunch of rifles. But most new rounds lose money, because it takes considerable money to develop one, which means they've got to sell a lot of rifles to break even.
I must comment for the second time on this thread that most of the "new" centerfire cartridges mentioned on this thread are just tweaks of really old cartridges, especially the various 6.5's mentioned. Several that not many Americans even know existed appeared very early on in Europe, and even the .260 was a wildcat long before Remington and Jim Carmichel claimed to "develop" it. I believe Ken Waters made up his version, called the .263 Express, in the early 1960's.
Even the .300 WSM is just another version of wildcats going back to the 1950's, and all it does is reproduce the .300 H&H in a shorter case. Of course, some people still believe Winchester's PR claims that the .300 WSM's case shape results in ballistic magic allowing higher velocities with less powder than other .300's, but so far no pressure-testing has found that magic.
The main reason so many shooters believe many cartridges are "new" is most shooters don't know much about the history of cartridge development. I suppose even the .17 HMR could be considered a tweak of the 5mm Remington--but unlike Remington, Hornady didn't try to develop a rimfire cartridge to directly compete with Winchester's .22 Magnum.
The original factory load of the 5mm was a 38-grain bullet at a claimed 2100 fps, but it simply didn't exceed the original 40-grain load of the .22 Magnum by enough to make any difference, especially in public perception. But the .17 HMR's an entirely different deal ballistically, using much lighter bullets at much higher velocity--and is also consistently far more accurate than the .22 Magnum. Which is why it became so popular, so quickly.
In contrast, most of the new cartridges mentioned here don't do anything much older cartridges didn't do ballistically, except fit in shorter magazines. But that's because shorter actions became popular, requiring new cartridges to fit them. The basic ballistic performance isn't any different than a pile of other rounds that were developed long ago, some more than a century. So,to put it in a nutshell; What's old is new again.
Life Member SCI
Life Member DSC
Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell
Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Yeah, and since AR's are now popular there's another "platform" for the same ballistics.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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Life Member SCI
Life Member DSC
Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell
Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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6.8SPC is really close to being a 30-30 with better BC.
30-30 -> rimless -> .30 Remington -> necked down -> 6.8SPC
Over on 68forums, the standard load for a ARP barrel is something close to 30gr of AA2200 pushing a 95gr TTSX @ ~2900 fps. They do OK with most common hunting bullets up to ~115 grains. There aren't many deer-related jobs that won't get done.
If you feel you need more, there's the .30 Herrett, which is SPC necked up to .308. Runs 110gr in the 2700s and 125gr in the 2600s.
One thing you quickly realize after you step through the AR looking glass is that it attracts mechanically creative people. Pretty much any potential cartridge that could feed from the magazine has been necked up, down and sideways. If it hasn't been done, there's at least someone thinking about it.
Last edited by OlongJohnson; 11/21/15.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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An interesting "new" cartridge is listed in the 1962 Parker Ackley "Handbook" (pg. 442 1965 ed.) as the 30/378 Arch. A 378 cut down and necked down. 3400 plus fps with a 180 grain slug. Take that you 300 WSM fans.
Real new cartridges will feature no cases and electronic ignition, bores will be smooth and bullets will have fins. Our "new" ammo is about like our great grandfathers new ammo. Good ideas are persistent but a change is probably just around the corner.
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Many shoopters think a strain-gauge will reveal the "real" pressure of their handloads. In reality, a strain-gauge doesn't provide actual pressures, and direct strain-gauge readings typically run lower than piezo-electronic readings. This is all presented clearly in the A-Square manual by Dr. Gary Minton, who was in charge of the ballistics and ammo department at A-Square, but a number of other professional ballistic lab people told me the same things over the years. Strain gauges are used widely in the ammo and bullet business, but are reasonably accurate only when their readings can be adjusted with reference ammunition worked up with piezo equipment.
I always thought that the A-Square reloading manual was the best product that Art produced, and I bought several copies to give to reloading friends... jim
LCDR Jim Dodd, USN (Ret.)
"If you're too busy to hunt, you're too busy."
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I think that's the best of the WSM's and it's all but gone from any production rifle chambering line-up. Tough to find brass for them too. Agreed, too bad they came out a little later than the .270 & .300 WSM's. The slow start along with Winchester's plant closing and quality control (feeding from magazines) which gave all of the short fats a bad rap. I'm thinking the arms mfg. industry wants it to die because they would lose so much money from sales of calibers that it would hurt.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Many shoopters think a strain-gauge will reveal the "real" pressure of their handloads. In reality, a strain-gauge doesn't provide actual pressures, and direct strain-gauge readings typically run lower than piezo-electronic readings. This is all presented clearly in the A-Square manual by Dr. Gary Minton, who was in charge of the ballistics and ammo department at A-Square, but a number of other professional ballistic lab people told me the same things over the years. Strain gauges are used widely in the ammo and bullet business, but are reasonably accurate only when their readings can be adjusted with reference ammunition worked up with piezo equipment.
I always thought that the A-Square reloading manual was the best product that Art produced, and I bought several copies to give to reloading friends... jim Just did a search for A-Square reloading manual and it is going for $$$ now days.
Ted
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Campfire Outfitter
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Any-Shot-You-Want-The-A-Square-Handloading-And-Rifle-Manual-/331623883418?hash=item4d3652e29a:g:RBkAAOSw9N1VxhtM
$750 on feebay
Ted
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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It's getting to the point where I might be able to retire by selling my "rare books." Also have a copy of RIFLE ACCURACY FACTS by Harold Vaughan, and a few dozen others that are going for quite a bit. Unfortunately, I don't really want to retire. What would I do? More hunting and shooting?
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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For car guys, there was a time when "The Unfair Advantage" was going for about $525 used. I was amazed that nobody in Los Angeles thought to check out a copy from the LA public library and pay the $50 lost-book fee. A couple years later, it was back in print.
Maybe if someone knew a publisher that would do moderate-volume runs of firearms related materials, some of these old titles could have new life...
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I vote for the .327 Federal. After 125 years of smokeless powder, somebody figured out the .32-20 doesn't need a neck any more (no BP fouling) and straightened the case. That's progress, there. ;-)
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Campfire Ranger
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This morning I was reading an old copy of Rifle that included a review of the 5mm. The original ammo exceeded specs by over 50fps and the downrange energy exceeded the mag a bit. I think the availability of the mag in revolvers plus the difficulty of handling the 5mm pressure (similar to the .17WSM) in ordinary rimfire actions killed that nice little round. We'll see how the new kid fares. With a good stash of brass and a bunch of cute little bullets, I'm sticking with my Hornet. If I was banging out a few hundred rounds a day at pdogs, I'd probably be singing a different tune.
What fresh Hell is this?
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I think what we really need is some rounds built for the AR15 frame (maybe with some modification) that are truley effective deer rounds. Yes I know the 223 with the right bullets will do it as will the 300Black Out and 6.8SPC but in honesty they're all on the small side. The AR10 frame is so big and heavy that it's not nearly as handy as the AR15 frame.
Some company needs to take this by the horns instead of just making the same thing that 50 other companies are making right now. The .30AR already does that, being essentially a .300 Savage in an AR, but it seems to have flopped. I read somewhere that Big Green won't sell brass to protect their ammo sales, but don't know that for sure. Could just be a victim of the crunch. If true, someone needs to read them the Betamax story at bedtime.
Last edited by Pappy348; 11/23/15.
What fresh Hell is this?
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How about the .458 x 1.8".
I call it the .458 DNR as they approved it for Indiana Deer Hunting.
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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It's getting to the point where I might be able to retire by selling my "rare books." Also have a copy of RIFLE ACCURACY FACTS by Harold Vaughan, and a few dozen others that are going for quite a bit. Unfortunately, I don't really want to retire. What would I do? More hunting and shooting? John, Where can I find what my books, guns and hunting, are worth? I have a lot of them and am old enough to need to sell almost all of them. If something happens to me, the kids will throw them away. I have the Harold Vaugh book. What is it selling for? Thanks, Dick
Last edited by Dick_Wright; 11/24/15.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Dick,
It's relatively easy to get an idea of at least asking prices for used books these days by checking websites like Amazon.com. I haven't checked lately on RIFLE ACCURACY FACTS, but the last time I did asking prices were in the $500 range, give or take.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Any-Shot-You-Want-The-A-Square-Handloading-And-Rifle-Manual-/331623883418?hash=item4d3652e29a:g:RBkAAOSw9N1VxhtM
$750 on feebay I'll let my copy go for $500
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I'll let my copy go for $500
I've done a little buying and selling of collectible art photography books online. What you tend to see is people asking ludicrous prices for certain niche books that are in short supply, hoping that some desperate sucker will actually buy it. But, those books rarely actually sell at those exorbitant prices. As my father says, something is only worth a big price, if someone is standing there with cash in hand...
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Campfire Kahuna
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Yep, the average selling price is usually closer to lower asking prices.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Any-Shot-You-Want-The-A-Square-Handloading-And-Rifle-Manual-/331623883418?hash=item4d3652e29a:g:RBkAAOSw9N1VxhtM
$750 on feebay I'll let my copy go for $500 Hey, I forgot to include THE LOL, +P+++...............grin
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Fück Joe byron
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If anyone wants to try 17WSM, this might be the time. $200 shipped after rebate. http://www.kygunco.com/-69648?utm
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There's a reason my CZ 204 has had a lot of bluing loss - I think enough of it, that it lives in my truck, when big game is not on the schedule.
I've always been a curmudgeon - now I'm an old curmudgeon.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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as has been said, the advances in bullets and powders have dwarfed any individual new introduction cartridge wise.
It's easy to go from chipmunk shooter to deer rifle with a lot of cartridges now, and be eminently suitable for both.
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Shirley, you must be Joe King. Sucks for SD. All the arms that chamber it from the factory are blowback, so the neck gets worked and two or three reloads is the limit, even at moderate pressures. People have wildcatted it to .20 and .17 for varmint service in bolt guns, but they find that the tiny diameter of the extractor groove leads to loose primer pockets quickly, even with moderate loads. 9mm blows 5.7x28 away for half of what it was designed for. .223/5.56 blows it away for the other half. The Hornet family is better for varmint service in bolt guns. I guess if you want a slightly hotter 22WMR that's not a rimfire, there's a niche. At least those are the conclusions I reached after getting really interested and researching the heck out of it.
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I think that's the best of the WSM's and it's all but gone from any production rifle chambering line-up. Tough to find brass for them too. Agreed, too bad they came out a little later than the .270 & .300 WSM's. The slow start along with Winchester's plant closing and quality control (feeding from magazines) which gave all of the short fats a bad rap. It's still the best--even if everyday shooters fail to recognize it as such.
Wade
"Let's Roll!" - Todd Beamer 9/11/01.
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I'll pick the 6.5 Grendel. It'll fit an AR (15) platform, yet go the distance. Efficient and accurate!
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+6 If fricking brass was available, it would gain ground in sales steadily IMO.
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I'll never understand why the 7 WSM wasn't/isn't the most popular of the WSM family.
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The .41 special is the best one recently developed.
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I'll never understand why the 7 WSM wasn't/isn't the most popular of the WSM family. Shorter Neck maybe ? Not really an issue in hunting rifles, just look at the .300 Win Mag or .284 cases. I'll never understand why the SAUM's and especially the 7mm didn't take off better . The Short Action .280AI ! ;-)
History May Not Repeat, But it Rhymes.
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The .41 special is the best one recently developed. I talked with Jack Belk about converting a handgun to .41 Special; fortunately, he ran off before I sent him the gun and a check and that put me off the subject. I still want to do the project though... jim
LCDR Jim Dodd, USN (Ret.)
"If you're too busy to hunt, you're too busy."
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Here is an excellent discussion of the 41 Special, including lots of loads, with input from many very knowledgeable folks: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289784
Nifty-250
"If you don't know where you're going, you may wind up somewhere else".
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Nothing! its all packaging, the 300WSM give us the 300 H+H in a short case, the 375 Ruger dittos to the 375 H+H! Nope what really changed in the last 20 years has been Range Finders and Computer Programs that you can actually afford to buy and use in the field.
"Any idiot can face a crisis,it's the day-to-day living that wears you out."
Anton Chekhov
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Lots of interesting comments here. As Mule Deer has pointed out (not for the first time), there really hasn't been any truly new cartridge for quite some time.
I have been caught up by a couple of the "new" chamberings introduced in the last 20 years, most notably the 204 Ruger, the 375 Ruger, and a couple of 6mm's.
I've sold all of the 204's off except one rifle, which is an AR with a long, heavy barrel that I bought especially for varmint hunting, and it's the only 204 I've kept. I don't hunt varmints much any more, so it may not survive the next gunsafe purge either.
I got rid of all the newfangled 6mm variations I got caught up with, and have instead been enjoying exploring an old 6mm caliber, the 243 Winchester. I've bought a couple of nice 243's that work so well for myself and for the young ladies in my family that I expect I'll continue exploring this caliber for another decade or more.
I had a 375 Ruger rifle that I ended up replacing with another hoary old obsolete caliber, the 375 H&H... in fact, I got rid of the new Ruger so I could take an "old" Holland & Holland to Africa this past summer and killed Cape buffalo and kudu with that obsolescent cartridge in a Mauser-action Kimber, said action being yet another ancient intrusion into my riflery.
And now I'm looking at all the 308's occupying space in my gunsafe that I don't shoot any more, because I've started playing with 30-06's instead.
I seem to be going backward in time...
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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I really like the 338 RUM it gets hurt because the 338 Lapua is "in Vogue". I think its the best of the RUM's . I'm sure there's some scientific reason why the Lapua is better but you'll have a hard time convincing me.
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Lots of interesting comments here. As Mule Deer has pointed out (not for the first time), there really hasn't been any truly new cartridge for quite some time. Actually there are quite a few new cartridges designed to work in standard length AR15 (not AR10) actions. Some of these take liberty with thinning the part of the bolt that encloses the cartridge head (I have learned). Some use rebated rims. Another new cartridge is the .300 Blackout or Whisper, for those desiring to use subsonic rifle cartridges with suppressors.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Campfire Kahuna
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The quote from Doc didn't include my main point: Most supposedly "new" cartridges provide essentially the same basic ballistics as older cartridges, but in a different case-shape to fit in different actions. Even the 6.8 SPC basically provides .250 Savage ballistics in a round fitting in AR-15's, though with slightly larger-diameter bullets.
Even the .300 Whisper/Blackout isn't very different from many older cartridges, including the 7.62x39 and the 7.9x33, both introduced during WWII. The only meaningful difference in the .300 is the rifling twist, allowing the use of heavier bullets at subsonic velocities. Which is actually more creative than merely changing case-shape so a .300 H&H will fit in a "short" bolt action.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I had mine built, on a Single Six, many years ago. A great little piece that I load 220 gr SWC's over 6 grs of Universal. I have never clocked it but am guessing 45 ACP equivalent velocities. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa437/boxhead61/Guns2011015.jpg)
Conduct is the best proof of character.
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I completely divorced my mind from chasing new cartridges. The darth of everything in the last 8 years has driven me to consider logistics above all else. Hence; a new 270 two years ago. Midway is calling winchester-30-06 brass "seasonal" and have been out for about 2 months now. Go figure...
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven.
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[quote=OlongJohnson]6.5CM and .260 don't shoot all the same bullets equally well. When you get into the really long-nose, heavier bullets developed for long-range shooting, the CM works just a little better. And since competition is all about stacking up tiny advantages, once the idea existed, the reality had to be created.
OLong,
Care to explain how the 6.5 CM works better than the .260 Remington? We've had barrels on and off of Accuracy International AW and AX receivers and I'll dance at your wedding if you there is ten cents worth of difference. Aside of ending up with a piece of Lapua .260 Rem Brass versus a piece Hornady with the 6.5 CM. I see it making sense to a guy who does not hand load in spades, however, if you shoot enough you are likely to hand load. That said I am dumping both and dropping back a performance rung and having my next Bartlein 5R tube chambered 6.5x47 Lapua. I even ordered my latest short action AIAXMC with the small primer pin/hole to give the small rifle primer a touch more support. The AI team has nothing but praise for them...
Regards, Matt.
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fwiw & imho,
Very little new in the world of cartridges. We COULD use better launchers and glass...
Regards, Matt.
NRA Life Benefactor Member
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It's all about a new wizbang that makes a fella thing what he's been doing all along isn't working. Schit is more similar than different.
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I believe that the best cartridge since the 30-06 was/is the 280 Remington. The 7x57 was previous to the 06 and is a cartridge hard to improve on...
I've had a couple 7x57's and that is an excellent cartridge if the Mauser action isn't soft, the free bore matches the magazine length, the barrel on the Mauser action wasn't made during a major war, etc.
My present 7x57 is a Classic 700, which I like as much a my 7mm-08 and my 280's.
The only rifle with a new cartridge is a 204. I wouldn't have bought that if it wasn't on my brother's estate sale.
When I was a kid I shot a lot of squirrels, grackle's and bunnies. Don't do that much anymore. So the smaller cartridges don't shine that much for me. I might get a 17 rim fire though.
I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
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Yeah, the .22 Magnum isn't going anywhere, though there's no doubt the .17 HMR has cut into its market. But the .22 Magnum ise very useful for some tasks the .17 HMR just doesn't do as well. It's much like the difference between the .25-06 and .30-06: Same case but with a vast difference in possible bullet weights and field performance.
But the .17 HMR did provide an entirely different kind of performance than the .22 Magnum. Probably some 5mm Remington fans will argue "their" round did it earlier, but the original Remington 5mm factory load wasn't much different than the .22 Magnum's, which is why the 5mm went tits-up.
Most of the cartridges mentioned so far simply reproduce the ballistics of much older cartridges, but in a shorter package to fit in shorter magazines. The .300 WSM doesn't do anything the .300 H&H won't do, and the same applies to the 6.5 Creedmoor and .260 Remington when comparing them to the 6.5x55, or 7mm-08 and 7x57. That's not revolutionary, just a realistic rearrangement of case shape to conform to modern bolt action magazines.
The .300 Blackout is pretty much exactly the .300 Whisper, which J.D. Jones developed more than 20 years ago. The .204 is interesting, but .20-caliber wildcats on the .223 case have been around much longer than 20 years. John, My thoughts are so many shooters who are now 17HMR owners would have not bought a 22 magnum. A entirely new market was created by a new magnum rimfire that utterly failed years earlier with Remingtons 5MM magnum. Marketing a better mouse trap and market timing with more ammo options and more importantly more rifle options led to the 17HMR success. Doc And/or because there is .17HMR ammo on the shelves. Any other rimfire ammo has been very scarce.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Campfire Kahuna
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There used to be an older gun writer who often stated that he believed XYZ cartridge would be a lot more popular IF ONLY the ammo companies offered more loads, and produced more ammo. He had it backwards. Demand drives ammo production, not the other way around--which is why there's so much .17 HMR ammo available. The cartridge became instantly popular and has remained so ever since.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Could the emphasis on which cartridge to manufacture have anything to do with .17hmr ammo being $15 for a box of 50 and 22lr ammo being $3? There is a huge demand for .22lr ammo yet finding it on shelves is hit and miss. I'm guessing the margin is a bit higher for the .17hmr and emphasis is to make what sells and makes the manufacturer the most money takes priority. I like the hmr and 22lr and currently have my eye on an old Anschutz 22mag. They all have a time and place.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Campfire Kahuna
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There's far more .22 Long Rifle being made than .17 HMR--and in every rimfire factory I've visited they're made on separate assembly lines anyway.
The reason .22 rimfire ammo isn't seen on shelves is some shooters (not all, but some) keep buying it whenever they see it, just as some (not all) shooters feel compelled to post on the Campfire anytime they find any in a store or on an Internet site for what they consider a "reasonable" price.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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There must be thousands of people with hundred of thousand of rounds of 22LR ammo in their closets. Just imagine the fire departments whenever one of those homes catch fire!
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I don't know about best, as that is pretty subjective, but the 40S&W had a pretty big impact and is probably around 20 years old.
HMR would be my first vote.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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OLong,
Care to explain how the 6.5 CM works better than the .260 Remington? We've had barrels on and off of Accuracy International AW and AX receivers and I'll dance at your wedding if you there is ten cents worth of difference. Aside of ending up with a piece of Lapua .260 Rem Brass versus a piece Hornady with the 6.5 CM. I see it making sense to a guy who does not hand load in spades, however, if you shoot enough you are likely to hand load.
I'm not up to speed on the AW and AX receivers, but I do know AI is all about rifles optimized for long distance work. Wouldn't be surprised if they come with nice, long magazines well-suited to the long-nose projectiles. The difference comes in if you are limited by magazine length. The CM case is just a bit shorter, so you can fit just a little bit longer ogive in the same COAL. My understanding is that's the reason for its creation - when you're up against a wall, a little bit of space can be a big deal. A rifle built from the ground up to shoot the long-range bullets just might be built without the limitation the CM was created to address.
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The reason .22 rimfire ammo isn't seen on shelves is some shooters (not all, but some) keep buying it whenever they see it, just as some (not all) shooters feel compelled to post on the Campfire anytime they find any in a store or on an Internet site for what they consider a "reasonable" price. Distribution is also uneven. From what I've seen, most of the production goes to larger chain stores. When you place bigger orders, you get your orders filled first. These stores tend to be in populated areas, but they also have a very limited footprint in certain very densely populated regions, such as California. The result is that people living in small towns tend to have a hard time finding it, and people in the regions that gun-friendly big box stores don't bother servicing well are nearly SOL. As long as this situation persists, people will resort to going online, and that will keep the scalpers sucking it off the shelves where it's plentiful. Smaller stores are also partly to blame. If I ever see 22LR in a non-big-box store, it's marked way the heck up to a price you'd only pay if you were truly desperate. They move minimal volume and can't get their next order filled in anything like a timely manner, so they still think it's scarce and keep their prices high, so it moves slowly.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Olongjohnson,
Yep--but all those things are the results of shooters buying up .22 LR ammo wherever and whenever they find it, not the cause.
The cause of all the so-called shortages is the longest-lived shooter's buying panic ever. It turned some of us into automatic buying machines, grabbing whatever we imagine we might need off shelves, in hopes of collecting a “lifetime” supply. It doesn’t matter if only some people do this: If enough grab-and-buy it’s impossible to keep store shelves reasonably stocked.
I refused to play the game at first, because I had a pretty good supply of ammo and loading components on hand, and thought that like previous buying panics it would ease after a year or so. But when it didn’t I sometimes couldn’t get ammo or components needed for magazine articles, even directly from the powder companies and bullet makers, because they couldn’t make enough to fill demand. As a result, a couple years ago I turned into a “hoarder” too, just to have stuff when it was needed for my job, but I know others who started doing the same thing, even though they didn’t panic-buy at first.
Other factors have helped extend the panic, notably smart phones (which allow us to instantly inform other people when we find rimfire ammo on a store’s shelves, often by sending a photo so they know exactly what’s there) and the Internet, which has fundamentally changed the way many shooters shop, because big Internet companies can indeed order more stuff than small local stores. But even Internet shopping often turns into a variety of panic buying: Every time a bunch of “affordable” rimfire or hard-to-find powder shows up on a website, somebody posts it on an Internet forum, and the stuff’s gone within a day or so.
All of this has become so systemic I doubt things will change much even if a Republican is elected president next November. We just keep buying ammo and components whenever and wherever we find them, whether in stores or on the Internet—and telling everybody else where we found them.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Sep 2014
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 624 |
Around here, it's abated. The big stores always have Mexican and premium stuff available. They get cases of standard-level domestic stuff in, and bricks sit on the shelf for days. I only buy if it's something I like that's particularly hard to find, or there is a sale that's an especially good deal on high quality stuff. I've actually worried that my stash may depreciate below what I paid for it. On the other hand, I don't like buying less than a brick, and I'll go back for multiple bricks if the price is right. If it turns out that a rifle likes a lot #, I want plenty of that # in the stash.
One of my buddies thinks the sales of 22LR firearms have slowed due to the unavailability and increased cost of the ammo, which may be a drag on the growth of shooting sports generally. New shooters who haven't yet become loonies are deterred by the high cost of centerfire and haven't figured out how to buy it cheap online.
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