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Clark, I bought one box of the 168's to try 'em.... got back from the range a few days ago and ordered two more boxes, due to how well they did. I was actually going in with low expectations because in my research, I'd certainly seen a number of reports like yours, but the 168's were super in my rifle.

They are not a beloved bullet on the internets, that's for sure. smile

They passed the first obstacle for me (excellent 100-yd accuracy). We'll see how they do at distance. I've got a 12" plate that I can get a 450-900 yard shot on. I can torment it at will with the 162, so the bar is high.

Terminal ballistics is another thing entirely. I'm giving Noz the benefit of the doubt in that regard.... I typically kill blacktails at relatively short ranges so even though I don't see them as an ideal short range bullet- too soft- I do plan on testing them that way before using them on elk. Got a few years until I draw the bull tag I want anyway. We had spike tags this year for that unit, and found a major bull hangout. We saw several 6x6 class bulls in one day, and it's an excellent LR spot, so it really lit me up! Came back plotting a 338 Edge or RUM build but my 7 WSM should be adequate IF I can find a suitable bullet. Love the Amax on deer but from what I've seen, not ideal for bull elk.


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Jeff_O
Sorry for the interruption but glad to see you back after a long absents.
Cheers NC once again sorry for wondering off track.


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Originally Posted by Jeff_O
Clark, I bought one box of the 168's to try 'em.... got back from the range a few days ago and ordered two more boxes, due to how well they did.


When I drove 900 miles to go hunting, I took a vertical mill on a trailer to give to a guy I hunt with. I could not take any last minute problems.

I now have 10 months to fiddle with distance from the lands with LRAB bullets.

And build a couple more rifles.


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168s are in the .25s out of my 7 saum.


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Campfire 'Bwana
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Originally Posted by Clarkm
Originally Posted by Jeff_O
Clark, I bought one box of the 168's to try 'em.... got back from the range a few days ago and ordered two more boxes, due to how well they did.


When I drove 900 miles to go hunting, I took a vertical mill on a trailer to give to a guy I hunt with. I could not take any last minute problems.

I now have 10 months to fiddle with distance from the lands with LRAB bullets.

And build a couple more rifles.


I've trailered machine tools so I can relate. Well done! That's a hell of a gift right there.

Lady Luck smiled on my first build.

I think you are correct to fiddle with distance. My 168 LRAB loads are nowhere near the lands.


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I run the 175 ABLR in my semi custom 7mm Rem Mag. They consistently shoot well with IMR7828SSC and I have had 100% hit rates on "kill zone sized" rocks at 700-780 yards. The elevation dial on my Conquest has matched my strelok pro data perfectly so far. That means in my rifle the BC is really close. I average around 2950 fps with my rifle.

Even my 14 year old son has been having good success at 700 yards with this load. Fun to watch him shoot that far and turn to look at me with that wry smile. Fun times.

My 16 year old son plans to use this rifle for our cow elk tags this winter while I carry my Kimber 325 wsm. I am anxious to see how they perform on game.

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Fire Hawk, please report back on what you see on the cow elk with the 175's. Terminal ballistics are hotly debated with this bullet but there's just not a lot of data out there (that I can find). Mostly he said/she said stuff. The Berger lovers/haters arguing really clouds any long range bullet debate- too much heat, too little light. Similar to the TSX in that way I guess. The LRAB has the potential to be a real game-changer, and that seems to put people on the defensive, or something.

FWIW I am also using 7828SSC. Dober made me try it and he was right. Plain 7828 works great too but it's like trying to meter toothpicks with my RCBS gear!

The only two elk I've killed fell to my .325 with the 200-gn AB. Worked really, really well.

Last edited by Jeff_O; 11/16/15.

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Will do Jeff O. I killed a cow two years ago with my 325 wsm and it performed perfectly with no drama. My 7mm Rem Mag is also an elk killer with the 160 Accubonds, but I am having a lot of fun at "long range" with these 175 ABLR bullets. Can't wait to see how they perform.

I went SSC because I needed it to got through the powder measure better. You are totally correct regarding the twigs comment. Can't believe I ever loaded those "long" grains.

I have used Retumbo with some success as well. But the 7828 works so well, it is hard to experiment when there are rocks to destroy. 😉

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Originally Posted by 32_20fan
[Linked Image]


You do understand that these numbers are predicted numbers based on bullet dimensions only? The same bullet will have a different BC when shot from different barrels based on many variables. The only true way to establish the correct BC for each rifle / bullet combination is to shoot it at transonic - around 1300 fps and measure it there. Any range less will be skewed data. My 7RUM / 190 Matrix combo BC is .720 when the AB prediction is around .680. I am fixing to test the 168 ABLR in a 7SAUM and the 150 ABLR in a 7-08 Ackley and it will be interesting to see what the actual BC's are. Even the Berger 140 VLD in the Ackley is higher than predicted around .530 compared to AB prediction of .510.

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Originally Posted by rifleman700
Originally Posted by 32_20fan
[Linked Image]


You do understand that these numbers are predicted numbers based on bullet dimensions only? The same bullet will have a different BC when shot from different barrels based on many variables. The only true way to establish the correct BC for each rifle / bullet combination is to shoot it at transonic - around 1300 fps and measure it there. Any range less will be skewed data. My 7RUM / 190 Matrix combo BC is .720 when the AB prediction is around .680. I am fixing to test the 168 ABLR in a 7SAUM and the 150 ABLR in a 7-08 Ackley and it will be interesting to see what the actual BC's are. Even the Berger 140 VLD in the Ackley is higher than predicted around .530 compared to AB prediction of .510.


I realize these are NUMBERS and the last person who needs to be told the difference between analytical and empirical results. It was posted to show Litz's investigation into the LRAB..nothing more. If I'm not mistaken, the numbers Bryan reported are live fire results.

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Originally Posted by rifleman700
Originally Posted by 32_20fan
[Linked Image]


You do understand that these numbers are predicted numbers based on bullet dimensions only? The same bullet will have a different BC when shot from different barrels based on many variables. The only true way to establish the correct BC for each rifle / bullet combination is to shoot it at transonic - around 1300 fps and measure it there. Any range less will be skewed data. My 7RUM / 190 Matrix combo BC is .720 when the AB prediction is around .680. I am fixing to test the 168 ABLR in a 7SAUM and the 150 ABLR in a 7-08 Ackley and it will be interesting to see what the actual BC's are. Even the Berger 140 VLD in the Ackley is higher than predicted around .530 compared to AB prediction of .510.


The AB numbers are not predictions. Bryan actually live-fires the bullets and measures drag by using Doppler radar. His experimental method uses the latest technologies and srutinizingly objective processes. So I'm curious what method you're using to measure G7 BC that you think is more accurate than Bryan's method? Are you using a chrono to measure MV, and then deducing BC via drop?

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If I was a .30 cal guy that chart would be a bummer. Those #'s are disturbingly lower than advertised. I like that the .284 168-gn came out where it did; .649 is just peachy.

My chrono is FUBAR (no, I didn't shoot it.... yet <g>...) so I'll be deriving my drops for it through shooting and tweaking software parameters to match observed reality, but it seems like that's what I always end up doing anyway, and it's "best-practices", so whatever. Who needs a stinkin' chrono anyway, right?

The 168 LRAB hits the same POI as the162 Amax at 100 yards from my rifle, so that's a bit of good luck. My software says they should be ballistic twins to way out there. That would rock.

Jordan, have you played with the LRAB at all? And hello, by the way! smile


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"The AB numbers are not predictions. Bryan actually live-fires the bullets and measures drag by using Doppler radar. "

Now that I think about it this may be right other than I am not sure about the doppler part.

Last edited by rifleman700; 11/17/15.
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Originally Posted by Jeff_O
If I was a .30 cal guy that chart would be a bummer. Those #'s are disturbingly lower than advertised. I like that the .284 168-gn came out where it did; .649 is just peachy.

My chrono is FUBAR (no, I didn't shoot it.... yet <g>...) so I'll be deriving my drops for it through shooting and tweaking software parameters to match observed reality, but it seems like that's what I always end up doing anyway, and it's "best-practices", so whatever. Who needs a stinkin' chrono anyway, right?

The 168 LRAB hits the same POI as the162 Amax at 100 yards from my rifle, so that's a bit of good luck. My software says they should be ballistic twins to way out there. That would rock.

Jordan, have you played with the LRAB at all? And hello, by the way! smile


Hey, Jeff!

I haven't played with the LRAB, because anything I might want to do with it, I'm completely happy with how the 162AM does the same job, and it's less than half the cost around here wink

What you're seeing as a 0.649 G1 BC on that 168 LRAB is only when a 7" twist barrel was used, which almost nobody else uses in practice. With a 9" twist barrel, which is way more commonly used, the BC was 0.624. As you say, this should track very close to the 162AM.

Establishing your DOPE via actually shooting is, as you say, essential to actually making hits. But there is a difference between establishing drop data, and establishing a bullet's actual BC value. In order to solve for a given variable, using a basic scientific method, one must know the value of all other variables, and solve for the unknown. What I'm getting at, is you can't accurately solve for BC if your velocity data is questionable, or if your atmospheric data is unknown. And I would venture to say that if you're using a Shooting Chrony to measure velocity, or the nearest weather station to gather your atmospherics, those data are questionable, and whatever BC you come up with may not be the bullet's true BC value.

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Originally Posted by rifleman700
"The AB numbers are not predictions. Bryan actually live-fires the bullets and measures drag by using Doppler radar. "

Now that I think about it this may be right other than I am not sure about the doppler part.


Notice how the chart says "advertised vs. tested". What that refers to is the fact that Bryan actually tests the bullets to measure their BC values, rather than just calculating the values based on computer models and simulations, like some manufacturers do. I believe Bryan said a few years ago that he used Doppler radar, but it's possible he just used multiple high-end chronographs to do his testing. I'll have to dig into it, but either way, he used robust testing methods.

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Yeah, gotta love the 162 Amax. However, I'm wanting a LR elk bullet for my 7 WSM. Have you shot anything big (or close up) with the Amax? I have seen one come completely unglued on a deer (in the vitals, so that was good) and can't really see using it on elk....

I know guys use the 180 Berger on elk. Contrarian that I am, I'm trying to find something else. smile


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Barnes is still sold. LOL.

No flies on the bergers though, 195s have my attention, but as always when they expand like that, have to be careful, IMHO, of big bones.


But having killed past 800 with Barnes, I have no qualms with them...

Don't get hung up on windage.... you have to have accuracy and a bullet that performs on target first... then you can become picky about how much the drift is etc..( we don't care much about drop these days obviously)


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Used it and seen it used on some elk, a couple of moose, and a handful of deer, at ranges from 40 yards to ~750 meters (can't remember the exact range, would have to check my notes). No blow-ups, and excellent performance. I've seen full penetration on elk and moose, from various angles. IME, the 162AM expands aggressively, but has the body length to dig deep. For purposefully close, break-neck speed shots, I like the 140 TTSX from my 7WSM. For everything else, the 162AM works.

Being a C&C, there's always the chance that it could come unglued on a tough target, and I guess your 1 deer that unhinged the bullet is a reminder of that, but by and large, I've seen great performance from AM bullets on game.

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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by rifleman700
"The AB numbers are not predictions. Bryan actually live-fires the bullets and measures drag by using Doppler radar. "

Now that I think about it this may be right other than I am not sure about the doppler part.


Notice how the chart says "advertised vs. tested". What that refers to is the fact that Bryan actually tests the bullets to measure their BC values, rather than just calculating the values based on computer models and simulations, like some manufacturers do. I believe Bryan said a few years ago that he used Doppler radar, but it's possible he just used multiple high-end chronographs to do his testing. I'll have to dig into it, but either way, he used robust testing methods.


Yes, you are right. I never paid much attention to this because I always just use Bryan's BC's out of his book and then shoot my loads to transonic and back into my actual gun / bullets BC. Also, I use ATRAG and the BC's are also different than G1 & G7.

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