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I like it when it rains down there.

Those bullets are beu----t----Full



PS: Are you afraid to get your flag wet, or is that a spare?

My ducks are in parade formation and I clicked the shutter only a split second after they had saluted. Have to work that timing thing out...

D

So yesterday I spent a fair bit of time assembling loads for the next venture to the range. Went well, yadda, yadda...

Buddy calls up and asked if I wanted to drop by today and not make noise at his range amid the oaks and palmettos. Sure, why not.

I was not inclined to take the ammo just loaded, but did want to take a first run with the can just to get an idea what it sounded like. I kluged up 5 loads of 3 just for giggles with an old can of Dupont powder gifted by a friend several years ago. It had never been opened.

Long story short, Sneezer is the right name for the rig. Problem I have is that from all appearances it is going to be a very boring gun insofar as further load work.

First round, first group was a bit of a flyer opening the group to just a bit over 1-1/4". I let my buddy shoot the next group and he can't for the life of him shoot a group that doesn't have one flyer. Bug holes with an accent? I dunno.

What surprised me more than anything was the velocity jump I got with this powder, even with the small charges. Picked up 100-150 fps over the previous loads. The powder was one I'd never used or even seen in the past. Huge round flakes a bit smaller than a hockey puck...kind of amusing to me actually.

But I'll tell you this....800X rocks! It burns clean, makes for good numbers with light charges and all that other gak.

I hope this makes the Poobah jealous.





PS: I relaxed a little on the last group. Biggest spread of the five loads was the first...they kept getting smaller and smaller and...I'm not that good, but something is clicking here.

Kudos. I foresee porcine devastation. Send me a ham.

Those are bad ass BD.

That is about perfect BD. Another good plus is I see 800X on the shelf all the time.

I like boring. That is a good sign of a balanced cartridge design. Kind of like the triple deuce. Works great with a couple of dozen different powders.

Looking good, BD! 👍🏻👏🏻

Any chance you got yourself a smartass phone you could shoot a quick vid with to get us an idea of the decibel denigration?

Never played with 800X, but it makes sense,...just a little faster than Blue Dot.

I figured you might find something that worked well in the medium/fast handgun propellants.

It appears that I have, but at the same time I'm seeing some promise with a a couple other powders as well. I suspect that SR4759 will start to settle down and perform in the near term. Loads in the tray waiting for launch are running around 80% load density and I'm not close to the limit on that particular powder.

Mojo, I'll see what I can do about that, but I'm not sure the cell will render anything faithful on the sound. We'll see.

Cast in point: This is an 8 bore gun and I was about 10' from it when fired. The sound does not suggest it will shake your innards when it goes off. BUT...with and w/o the can might give a reference.

Dan

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Black%20Powder/IMG_2920_zpsjoluyrvf.mp4

Dan, you need to quit clearing and chopping wood and laying boulders and get down to business here. Chores can wait. You have our permission.





Gesundheit

To continue the saga, there have been several developments of note though I'm not certain I know what they mean. Perhaps a small data set skews the perception? I'll stick with that for the moment anyway.

Day 3.5 at the range with the chronograph and all information gleaned at the 50 yard butt, data presented in order of burn rate.

Bullseye has been ditched, something I anticipated. Of course I just HAD to try it.
Avg. Group with two samples was 2.25", no velocity info available.

800X is interesting. It burns so clean it is near stupid. Did you clean after shooting Dan? No, I shot a few rounds of Dupont 800X and the barrel is spotless. Groups have ranged from tiny to ridiculous, the latter no doubt the result of gently pulling the bullets on 5 cases to verify charge weight after an excursion with the Ohaus 505. Though there was no apparent deformation of the bullets in that process, the target said otherwise. 2.5" is no laughing matter, no sir.

The range of charges shot to date is from 4.0 to 4.4 grains. The first two increments averaged in the 920 fps range with ES values of 33 and 28 in order. Groups were fair. The next step of 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4 grains all fell in the 950 fps range with ES values of 13.2 to 15.2 with exception of today's effort which was a repeat of the 4.2 load for 10 shots. Average velocity was 949 with an ES of 9. One group of 5 was .95". What baffles me a bit is the significant increase of velocity between 4.1 and 4.2 grains, followed by an apparent plateau where it levels out. But then, I love a mystery...

WW540 has been a player since this started, contributing several groups suggesting promise for the future. Average groups for 5 strings of 5 are 1.29". Velocity increases have been consistent in a linear fashion averaging 10-15 fps increase for each .1 grain of charge increase. The first iteration had an average of 820 fps with ES of 30. The last was 4.8 grains which averaged 886 fps with ES of 15.

Took a spin with WW571 today, a single string of 5 shots. It grouped at 1.38", average velocity of 961 fps and ES of 39. I doubt it has much future in this undertaking.

2400 has been disappointing and after today will no longer be in the race. Velocities have been erratic to say the least, groups averaging 1.25". IMR4227 has given similar results though the ES values should be enshrined in the Ripley Museum.

Hodgdon Li'l Gun requires further investigation. A single 5 shot string today yielded a .68" group with average velocity of 977 fps and an ES of 28.

Lastly, IMR4759 has potential, though there are some curious results on the table. Group Average has been in the 1.25" range with minor flashes of brilliance. Velocity increases averaged 12 fps per .1 grain from 5.8-6.2 grains, then inexplicably jumped to 25 fps per tenth at the next increment of 6.4 grains. Average velocity at that level was 846 fps with ES of 19, the first time that value has been reasonable. Prior excursions have ranged to as high as 70 fps. It burns clean, when it burns, but leaves significant unburned quantity in the barrel. I am hopeful that at higher velocity/pressure that will abate.

This has been an interesting project to me and I'm not disappointed with any of the results. Truth is that any load put together to date and applied at the ranges I engage hogs at would be perfectly adequate in terms of velocity and precision. That said, I will continue to explore and find out what I can, cull the rats and then move to the 100 yard line.

There are several things on the table that may not be perfectly obvious to the average shooter and they ultimately carry a bit of weight on what the final load looks like.

-conventional lube really isn't an option, so I use a variation of the dry wax lube theory, mostly to avoid the joy of cleaning a lot of lube from the suppressor. Speaking of that, it had its first run a few days back and with 800X at around 950 fps, it sounds about like a suppressed .22 LR SV.

-unburned powder residue is not optional for use with the suppressor. Not long ago I had the pleasure (?) of hearing a secondary ignition in a suppressor as a result of accumulated unburned powder in the baffle stack. I don't know it hurts much on a now and again basis, nor do I know that it doesn't. It does sound a bit odd nonetheless.

-Without much forethought this project came together around the bullet. I think it's not a bad approach, even if atypical. Should I pursue something of this sort again, the bullet will be the first focus of my attention and all the rest built around that...again. Difference it that next time it will be done intentionally.

-With over 100 rounds fired to date I have not experienced the first trace of leading. The cases are easy to form. The common request when having hardware crafted to support such a project is for one to provide fired cases or a reamer sketch. Well, I get that, but would very much like to see a simpler path to modifying straight wall cases such as done with the Sneezer. The reamer sketch theory worked well enough here, no complaints at all, but my lay perspective is that there is a void in the world of dies. Why not a simple series of dies that allow for a selected shoulder angle and neck diameter reduction? It isn't rocket science.

-I may get to the original goal of 1050 fps, or not. Doesn't really matter that much. While I don't know what the minimum requirement for swine abuse is from a velocity perspective it is well established that 710 fps will drive a 29 grain CB Short bullet completely thru a hog's skull. I am well beyond that metric insofar as velocity, momentum and sectional density is concerned. One of the minor points of annoyance is that to date I have not been able to find a bullet in the soft sand common to berms at local ranges. I think my arm is long enough, but that has yet to be proven.

-I will take it to the point of achieving the goal of consistent sub MOA precision before I call it good.

That is all for now,

Dan

Sounds like your are going in the right direction. I think you have the science method down.

One thought.(you knew it was coming).
It has been well documented that going from one type of powder to another without swabbing the barrel sometimes, I mean sometimes, can result in modifying the true results of the test on the second powder. Especially if said first powder is not fully burnt.

Well, I'm a crusty ol' swabber from a long time back. Even use a blow tube for BP.

The range of charges shot to date is from 4.0 to 4.4 grains. The first two increments averaged in the 920 fps range with ES values of 33 and 28 in order. Groups were fair. The next step of 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4 grains all fell in the 950 fps range with ES values of 13.2 to 15.2 with exception of today's effort which was a repeat of the 4.2 load for 10 shots. Average velocity was 949 with an ES of 9. One group of 5 was .95". What baffles me a bit is the significant increase of velocity between 4.1 and 4.2 grains, followed by an apparent plateau where it levels out. But then, I love a mystery...

I think I mentioned earlier about 800X being unpredictable sometimes.

Yes, but it isn't just 800X doing such oddities. 4759 did something similar. Go figure.

When this started I worked the faster powders first and filtered the more moderate burn rates as it progressed. Most of what I've seen in performance was expected, but there have been a few excursions such as those above which puzzle me.

My expectations, for whatever it might be worth, I'll wind up settling on something in the slower burn/higher load density. If it gets down to it I've some Rx7 and 4198 to fiddle with.

Per mention above, the SR4759 is tantalizing, but it has to reach a point where the powder burn is far more complete. I have room for about 9 grains before I start compressing the charge.

Still on the curve,

D

Yea, at first I thought you wanted anything from about 850-1050 fps. But you want to settle somewhere around 1000 to subsonic with approx. 90% + load density with good combustion. There are just a handful of double base but a few single base that will probably reached those goals. There has been a few already mentioned in this thread.

Well, this epic adventure seems to be on course, meeting expectations while administering education aplenty.

Just finished day 4 at the range and an epic adventure it was. Short version is that I have a load, still looking at another possible load and am moving to the 100 yard butt next time around.

A long winded breakdown on what I've found to date, all distances at 50 yards, groups of 5 shots each:

Bullseye was a bust from the first round, delivering average groups of 1.88" for 2 loads.

WW540 served up a couple of sub 1" groups in the 800 fps range (4-4.2 gr) but began shooting patterns with stronger loads. Average group size for the range of groups 1.88", highest velocity was 886 fps avg. ES of 30 on average.

2400 averaged groups of 1.52" for the series, 4.5-6.1 gr in .2 increments. Best groups around 1.15" w/5.7 gr and 859 fps. Average ES was 44 fps.

IMR4227 was a bust. Average groups of 2.0" and ES avg of 68 over the range of 6-6.4 grains and highest velocity of 756 fps. I suspect it would do better with greater charges but I've plenty of functional options to keep me otherwise occupied.

SR4759 is a tease and the one powder I will work with some more aside from the Rock Star. It has presented groups in the 1.1" range in the last two loadings and with an average velocity of ~850 fps. ES numbers are horrid, averaging 50 over the series. Most recently the amount of unburned kernels observed in the bore have diminished greatly as the loads increase and the ES numbers are declining. The last load was the first to fall into the 20s for ES, this with a load density of 70%. Charges have ranged from 5.8-6.8 gr in .2 increments.

WW571......sort of a fizzle. Did its best work with the first charge of 5.5 grains, and ES of 37 and velocity of 961 fps. Downhill from there it was.

Li'l Gun is the Rock Star of this parade. Though I only started working with it during the last two range sessions it has averaged .64" for three groups, ES of 26 and high average velocity of 1038 fps. Can't hardly not like that! Charges have ranged from 6-6.4 gr in .2 increments.

Dupont 800X looked to be the star of this show and in fact could still find use after I use up 10# or so of Li'l Gun. Average of 9 groups was 1.65". Average ES was superior at 21 and the burn was very clean, that being something of note when using a suppressor. Alas, it went a little haywire today and as it crashed thru the 1,000 fps barrier is leaded the bore badly and that is the second time it has done so. That said, .12" groupage at around 950 fps is nothing to sneeze at and it will be a fall back in times of need. Average of 3 groups with 4.2 gr was .95".

This is what 800X did to the bore at the 1000 fps threshold...and tossed in a 3" group for giggles.


And this is what happened to one of my pretty bullets when it collided with a wall of dirt.



Did I tell you I like Li'l Gun?

Yep. I think we talked about Lil'gun working well from low pressures (.22 Long Rifle like) to magnum pressures in the .500 S&W. Very versatile powder. Some will say it burns hot. But from my experience, that is only true when O2 is added like from a cylinder gap at moderate to higher pressures.

How dirty was the Lil'gun?



I will say it again. 800X will get tricky sometimes without warning. Watch out.

I can tell you know what you are doing.



Thought I would say that before the year ends.

LG burns fairly clean at the pressure level I'm at. If I can jack up the pressure on 4759 I expect it to be a very clean burn. Only thing that has burned cleaner that LG is 800X.