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jeffbird,

I have done dozens of tests like you describe with antlers, or other "practical" objects. But the problem I eventually ran into is that unless have a bunch of scopes lined up to test at the same time, then there's no way to correlate results from one scope in, say, 2012 with another scope in 2015. Then there's the problem of light conditions changing from test to test.

Which is exactly why I came with this test, which not only uses a standardized chart at the same range every time, but the same minimal amount of artificial light. I can assure you that it does carry over to aiming at game.


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Best scope (optically) I've ever seen and now own is my Leica ER. Having crosshairs in it to guide bullets is almost like cheating.

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Miles,

As I just assured jeffbird, while the B&W chart isn't the only criteria for optical performance, it definitely carries over into overall optical quality in a scope, especially low light performance. I confirmed this many times after developing the night-time chart test, by performing the same test I used before: lining up a bunch of scopes in front of a picture window and having several people (not just me) rate them in brightness as the sun went down. The results from both tests correlated very strongly, so no, it's not "quite subjective."

And it's only ONE of the tests I make when evaluating any scope.


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Cruiser1,

Yes, fixed power scopes do tend to perform better in low light than variables of equal quality, because they have fewer lenses, so fewer air/glass surfaces to scatter light.


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Originally Posted by RevMike
I have a VXR 3-9 with Firedot 4 on a MRC 7x57. On the lowest setting, that little red dot is the ticket. I haven't looked through a VX6...I'm afraid if I did I'd have to have one.


So you did get a VX-R and it sounds like you like it. Good for you - my second VX-R arrived yesterday.

Last edited by bigwhoop; 11/19/15.

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S&B. The finest scopes made, sadly also some of the most expensive.

I'll never sell the few I have... Swarovski Z6 is not far behind.

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Cruiser1,

Yes, fixed power scopes do tend to perform better in low light than variables of equal quality, because they have fewer lenses, so fewer air/glass surfaces to scatter light.


John,

As I'm sure you know, I own a Hensoldt 6-24x72. The glass is near flawless except for one thing: chromatic aberration. I have another Hensoldt and it shows the same chromatic aberration. As you noted above, magnification does play a role in low light hunting. I can magnify the image higher than a 56mm objective and still have a maximum exit pupil, thus, I'm theoretically able to make out more details of the target/game. Never having sat down and done a side by side test with my other Hensoldt, which has a 56mm objective, I can only presume the increased magnification would help.

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Originally Posted by bigwhoop
Originally Posted by RevMike
I have a VXR 3-9 with Firedot 4 on a MRC 7x57. On the lowest setting, that little red dot is the ticket. I haven't looked through a VX6...I'm afraid if I did I'd have to have one.


So you did get a VX-R and it sounds like you like it. Good for you - my second VX-R arrived yesterday.


'Whoop:

Not exactly. I've had the VXR 3-9 (Firedot 4) on a 7x57 Montana Rifle Company ASR for a couple of years. And yes, I do like it, and it seems to fit the profile of the ASR just fine (sorry for the fuzzy iPhone pic).

[Linked Image]

I haven't put one one the Featherweight (yet) since, as I mentioned before, the 30mm tubes just seem to be a tad bulky for the profile of the gun. But that may just be to my eye and, as you or someone else mentioned, I'd get used to it. Here's one of the Featherweights with a VX3 1.5-5 with heavy duty duplex. This is the rifle on which the scope might get swapped. The other Featherweight is carrying a VX3 2.5-8 and I'll leave it alone. In my mind it's about the perfect setup. By the way, both of the Featherweights are 7x57 as well.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]




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Ringman, Nightforce does have good glass but still not in S&B's class...but almost. They do not have a good hunting reticle in my opinion so I lost interest years ago. The VX6, for those that just refuse to own the best, is probably the most bang for the buck for under $1000 but still not in S&B's class (close though). They have however figured out the best duplex reticle, there's is the perfect size. The best advantage I can think of w/the S&B is w/the FFP one can make the reticle any size and thickness you want. And when you think about it, if you're going to spend that much money why not put $500 with it and buy a S&B. One can find better than MAP pricing if they just shop a little bit. Mine is 20 years old and just like the Klassic's they make today. I've killed all manner of game w/it and it has never let me down. powdr

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powdr,

You mentioned Swarovski in your alpha glass comment. Do you include the z5 and z6 as having alpha glass? Maybe a better question is what do you consider having alpha glass?


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Of scopes I have actually used significantly and compared, here is my list starting with what has been the best: a PV 2.5-10x56. There is no such thing as perfection, though I seem to be chasing it and forever swapping scopes. Some have better contrast. Some resolve fine detail better. Some are sharper to the edges. Some are more forgiving with their sweet spots. And some have better reticles. But none seem to have hit on the ultimate combination just yet. And with dumb marketing moves -- like Zeiss ditching its wonderful #4 reticle -- I don't see that ever happening.

Swarovski PV 2.5-10x56
Zeiss Diavari Victory 2.5-10x50
Zeiss Diavari Victory 3-12x56
Meopta MeoStar 3-12x56
Kahles Helia CL 3-10x50
Kahles Helia CL 4-12x52
Zeiss Diavari Victory 2.5-10x42
Meopta Meostar 3-10x50
Zeiss Diavari Victory 1.5-6x42
Kahles Helia C 8x56
Zeiss Conquest DL 3-12x50
Zeiss Classic Diatal 6x42
Meopta MeoStar 4-12x40
Zeiss Diavari V 3-9x42
Swarovski PH 2.5-10x42

There are probably a couple I have forgotten about. My memory isn't what it used to be. Below that list, lots of scopes clutter the candidates and can certainly take you to the edge of darkness, including the Conquest 3.5-10x50 and similar models, the MeoPro series, the AV/Z3/Z5 series, the VX6 and VX3s, upper-end Burris, upper-end Nikon and the Kahles AH among others.


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Ringman-You didn't ask me but I will give you my take on "Z5/Z6 as alpha glass" question.

I doubt anyone considers the Z5 as truly alpha optics. It has the exact same glass and coatings as the Z3. Only the internals differ. They are VERY nice but certainly not in the same league as the Diavari Victory series, the Z6, etc.

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BobbyTomek,

I think you answered the question I was thinking.


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if you want to shoot something at 100 yards in the dark here is your huckleberry...other than that you need a NV scope.

Low light scopes....I guess I been there and done that...


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Ringman, I agree whole heartily w/ Bobby's list even though there is more than one on the list I haven't owned. Bobby and JG are good to go when it comes to glass comparison and quality. While Bobby does not list the S&B on his list and I don't know how they do it...the S&B is still the best to me when everything is considered. They have a lot of scopes w/too short tubes that I wouldn't own but their Klassic series especially their 3-12x42 w/#4 is to me the best there is. I do not own scopes w/over a 44mm objective, their not needed. I've always felt if the market really does drive sales and the S&B was too expensive then they would go broke. Go figure. powdr

P.S. Oh, and I almost forgot...Bobby is so right about Zeiss dropping the #4 reticle. I can't see it doing anything but hurting sales.

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powdr-Thanks for the kind words. I am sure the S&B scopes rank with the very best, but I only listed those I had ample experience with. I've looked through a few S&Bs but never owned one to run through the paces. But from my brief time looking through and handling them, the only negative thing I could come up with would be the center wire of the reticle seeming quite thin, much as in the Meoptas. Then again, with top-notch resolution and image contrast, even the thinner reticles can often be rather useful under the worst of lighting conditions and against dark targets like hogs. But since I haven't spent significant time behind them, I won't speculate.


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powdr-Also, I wanted to say your assessment of the VX-6 and its duplex reticle is dead-on. I REALLY like that reticle, and the fact that it's incorporated into the VX-R line as well makes it even more appealing.

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Interesting thread.

I haven't owned as many low light scopes as people like Bobby,but have owned and used a fair number of scopes over the years,and make a steady habit of peeping through them under various light and terrain conditions,including night time.This includes hunting with them and lots of time counting coup on local deer at our 600 yard range.

Some qualifiers: First, what is "low light"? I call it any conditions encountered in normal hunting, meaning up to,and slightly after legal shooting light. In Saskatchewan this ran you to sundown last I knew.In most other jurisdictions I've hunted from Alberta to New Brunswick and New England, many states in the American west,this is a half hour after sunset and a half hour before sunrise.

Anything later, or earlier, than that, I'd call "night time";not low light.

The gloomiest places I have hunted have been SE Alaska(which can have lousy light almost all day sometimes), New England in fall/winter,and Alberta/Central Canada in November.

IME the west does not offer the low light challenges the other areas do.Just seems the light and terrain conditions in places like Colorado,New Mexico, and Wyoming are just not as gloomy as those in the other places. But I have not hunted everywhere out there either.

And I have never hunted hogs in Texas where it seems shooting late is pretty common.

Next qualifier is reticles. My standard has always been.."Can I see the reticle against the animal,well enough to aim at the distance I am willing to shoot under deteriorating conditions,at the edge of darkness?"

Again, if i can see the reticle against the animal, I can shoot. That's all I need to know.

To me this is a judgement call and I am pretty conservative. The animal would have to be closer the darker it gets,and far as possible from heavy cover,so that if it runs at the shot, hopefully it will expire away from cover. The reason (obviously) is that in places like Alberta, an animal left over night will get eaten by wolves or coyotes and that sucks, far as I am concerned. I will hold off rather than risk anything uncertain.

To me, this is a lot different criteria than the question of ..."What is the BEST lowlight reticle"?

I explain tis because I sometimes think in these discussions we aren't always talking about the same situations of "low light". Anyway those are my criteria and YMMV depending on how late you shoot under what conditions.

With all the BS out of the way here's my comments based on what my eyes tell me:

2.5X Kahles- First Euro scope I ever owned before many knew of Kahles over here,and it was a revelation for the short distance black bear hunting we were doing those days in the Northeast.

3-9 Zeiss Conquest and Diavari with Zeiss Duplex: Both very good up to and slightly past legal shooting light. If it gets too dark, the optics let you see but the reticle fades in bad light.

3.5-10X50 Kahles- This one performed better than the two Zeiss scopes up to and past shooting light. Better than any VX3 Leupold in every way.

2.5-10 Swaro PH with their duplex reticle. Maybe the best combination of optics and non illuminated reticle I've personally used. The optics drag you way past legal light,and the reticle will not wash out,even aiming from open into background cover. I have been WAY past legal light with this one and could still kill with it.

Leupold FX3 6x42- Very good and edges out the 36mm model in the last minutes of daylight.

3.5-10X Leupold- Not in the class with the Kahles IMHO but better than I really have expected,and a lot better than the 2.5-8X Leupold,which really sucks IMHO.Optics are flat as light fades, little contrast and not terribly bright to my eyes.I used a 2.5-8X on my longest low light shot at 300 yards. Only goes to show you can make some things work sometimes.I have owned my last one.

Swaro Z6 1.5-10- Very good. Under my criteria and counting coup on many deer,have never lost the reticle.

Schmidt Bender Summit- Optics as good or better than anything listed above as late as I care to go. Aiming at hundreds of deer never lost the reticle up to and slightly past legal shooting light. Never. It takes a black background way past legal light before it fades out completely,despite being thin. I could say the same things about the Z6 and its reticle..

Schmidt Bender Zenith 1.5-6X- Top of the heap for optics and reticle. It's past legal light before you lose the center of the reticle; but hit the switch on the lighted reticle and if you can see it, you can aim and hit.But by then....it's night time. The light varies in intensity which allows use in full daylight if wanted, but dims so there is little to no glare in bad light. I really like this scope.

Never owned a 56mm scope so can't say anything about them.I've used lots of other scopes that do not stand out in the low light department,so don't mention them. For example the 4X Conquest beats the snot out of any Leupold 4x optically.Any scope is better than iron sites though.

Anyway this is what I have owned,shot,and hunted with and feel comfortable commenting on. YMMV smile




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Bobby, my scope buying days are over but if I ever run across $800 I can blow I'm going to buy a VX6. I bought my S&B when I was young and single...couldn't do it now but I'm thankful I did it when I did. powdr

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Bob, Good points - but hey - out here in the wayyy West, it gets dark as anywhere, just depends on what side of the time zone you're in and whether it's morning or evening. LOL Of course its whether in the open or in the brush. A famous gunwriter once wrote something to the extent of, dark timber, whatever that is. Well it's dark ass timber! Low light, it's relative like what folks mean by open country, long range, hard work or great rack. What it takes is seeing the target and the reticle well enough to get it done per one's need.

Not toward anyone but I don't consider alpha glass a viable otion nor, thankfully, a needed piece of kit. Not that it wouldn't be welcome, just not necessary. For me the Firedot Duplex is a low light killer. I have a lowly seconhand VX-R 3-9x40 and recommend it strongly to the frugal cheap. Day, night, early, late, Pacific or Mountain it'll get it done.


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