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Just looking at Hodgdon Data on the 32-20 Winchester. 115gr cast LRNFP

The powders they list are:

Universal
WW231
HP-38
Trail Boss
Titegroup

Velocities from 642 to 915. Pressures from 11,100 to 16,000 CUP

I think using 180gr pill is doable with any of these.

Powders in this burn rate range is probably a good start.


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Gibby, there's a whale of a lot I don't know about internal ballistics, but the question to me isn't so much whether or not it can be done, but if it can be done well. Entirely a guess on my part, but it is quite possible the loads above are indicators of where I need to be headed. 180 grains of lead (183.5 actually) is a fair bit up the SD scale from the referenced bullet. Transferring data across a wide gap like that may generate some surprises I don't want.

Another point of minor import is the alloy they used versus what I'm using. 30:1 is around BHN 9 which is just slightly harder than bullets found in .22 RF ammo. Their ref. MAP is around 26K PSI and that's a fairly good reference for the max I can use with this alloy.

OTOH, I will need a minimum pressure of about 13 KPSI to promote obturation, so somewhere in the upper middle to max will get me where I need to be for best performance of the alloy, and by extension, the bullet. To my eye that's one of two critical elements in finding the consistency I'm looking for. The second is load density. I imagine I'll find success with something in the 75% or higher range of that. Of course I could be full of crap and find something out in left field that works splendidly.

For all the "research" I've done there are still things to be learned. For example, it came to my attention this eve that WW540 has a lot slower burn rate than I'd been led to believe based on data from one source contradicted by several others. Stuff happens. It explains my findings from the range visit detailed above. In fact, of the 3 powders used to date, they almost perfectly illustrate the range of burn rates I'll be playing with, that being Bullseye to 2400. If I don't find nirvana there I'll step outside the box just a bit. One thing I'm not short of is a variety of powders to play with.

What needs to come next is to find out what velocity range I'm in, at least in my imagination that's it.

Bristoe, as far as picking a velocity, the range listed (800-1,000) is adequate for my purposes. One of the things I've learned about cans of late, is that the low transonic velocity range ups the noise footprint substantially with velocity increase and that bullet form has a lot to do with that. I will be subsonic when all is said and done, but the degree is an open question. I'll be preferring precision at 750 fps to larger groups at say, 950 fps. Is an ingrained preference picked up from popping pigs with CB shorts with the same frame pictured above. The "desire" is MOA @ 100 yards. The practical requirement is a pig brain sized group at 50, 100% of the time with enough snap to put it there, thru the bone structure with any reasonable aspect to the shot.

Yeah, it's an odd looking thing for sure. If you google around for the .30 Badger/.30 Reece you'll find something similar. Difference is primarily in neck length for my round which is near 1/2" and a case capacity intended to drive a particular bullet subsonic rather than a variety of bullets supersonic.

What led me to the .357 case was it's untapered form, SAAMI spec MP and rim which is quite amenable to the Contender. Believe me, I looked at a lot of alternatives. Some that were close runner ups were bypassed mostly due to a lack of brass or other aggravating circumstances.

I had some lengthy discussions with Dave Manson and Bullberry regarding the project and once they understood the parameters and platform they were thumbs up. In the balance of my life it will shoot that one bullet at subsonic velocities yet to be determined even though the range of velocity is fairly well defined. I do have experience with other guns w/cans (.22RF, .22 WMR, .357, .44 Mag, all rifles) and the variety of characteristics/baggage which shaped this project. It's doable, but will take a little time.

Quote
I doubt that the most consistent propellant at 700 fps is going to be the most consistent propellant at 1000 fps.


I agree with that. Question is, which is best and where?


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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I was using the 32-20 as an example because of case size and low pressure characteristics. Showing which powders are preferred at lower pressures and at the low pressures we are talking about. A jump of 60grs in bullet weight combined with the "relative" large capacity of your case with inserted bullet in the range of 2 to 5grs of powder I do not see a problem if you back your charge down a bit. Starting very conservative.You have enough experience with bullseye (using it's burn rate) and your chrono to get a feel of internals. I think you can get the obturation and keep it well under 26k psi. As far as loading density goes, the double base powders with higher percentages of nitro will be more forgiving. 5744 and Titgroup are great for low loading densities. As is a few others. 5744 has been proven to have nonexistent variations in burning relative to powder position.

In this case,lower powder charges (faster burning) is one thing I would lean towards. Velocity of the powder charge at the muzzle makes a difference in dB's also ya' know. Make use of the breech end of the barrel more. There is that pressure curve thing again. Food for thought.

One other thing. Winchester SP primers are known to be very hot. Might be better if you do not use them.


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FWIW 1680 works well in the .300 Blackout, with heavy subsonic bullets.


"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."

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Thanks for the clues boys, will be loading up another batch today and see where this takes me.

DD


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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What primers are you using? I have found certain powders in reduced loads to be very primer sensitive.


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In addition to primer selection probably having an effect with a load like this, have you addressed flash hole uniformity and diameter also? I think getting a "soft" ignition through a uniform hole might make a bit of a difference.



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Started this out with W-W SPP but have some CCI and Federal primers to try, including some match primers. Have the equivalent in SRP as well. Part of the process I reckon.

Flash holes are uniformed.

Next round will continue the exploration with WW540 and 2400, ramping up a few more tenths. Also going to try some 4227 and Lil' Gun for giggles.

Short list of what I have to play with from fastest burn rate to slowest:

Bullseye (done)
Red Dot (Saving for a state of desperation)
700X (ditto)
International Clays (ditto)
WW231 (ditto)
800X
WW540 (posted and incl. in next round)
WW571
Blue Dot
2400 (posted and incl. next round)
Lil' Gun (next round)
4759
4227 (next round)
4198
RX7

Each cycle will include at least 2 loads for each powder.

Will be working thru that list before considering the purchase of different varieties. One of the things that is a mystery to me and I imagine will influence the final recipe is quickness. That probably is too variable for inclusion into load data books, but I've long suspected it is probably more influential than burn rate. Given the capacity and QL info I have I suspect but do not know that those powders in the mid to lower burn rate portion of the list will be erratic at lower load densities but start to show promise as the loads increase.

I may be full of it, but my sense of affairs regarding "position sensitivity" is that it is more likely the result of variations in quickness due to the relationship between that metric and pressure. In other words, the pressure curve gets a bit twisted if the early phases of the ignition sequence are not consistent. Just a guess though.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Lil Gun was about the best powder that I tried for reduced loads in the 38 Special for late night indoor schützenfests.

CCI Small Rifle Magnum primers gave the best accuracy and seemed to burn the Lil Gun cleaner. This was with 148 grain wad-cutters. 2400 never worked for me in small doses.

To your point about position sensitivity - we tried holding revolvers up and down to keep the powder positioned the same between shots. Never could find the sweet spot on that.


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Looks like you have a good list to start off with.
Position sensitivity is a hard one to predict. Deterrent coatings or no coatings. Size and shape of kernels. How they pack. Not only does these differences effect burn rate but how the pile is affected in space at time of ignition. Chemical makeup can be chosen. Some powder ignites easier than others. But I think this is a minor thing here. If it was major, all bullseye shooters would be using the same powder. My guess is that the momentum of that big long bullet will smooth out some of these reactions going on behind it.

The base of that bullet is going to be on fire anyway from those Win SP primers. Ha!


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Quote
The base of that bullet is going to be on fire anyway from those Win SP primers. Ha!



[Linked Image]

If that's a bullet's butt on fire, send matches! laugh


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Nice group for tracers.





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Well, day 2 at the line and I come back to an epiphany. Moved some pics in the PB account and broke the links to images preceding this post and it is too late to edit. Sorry...

Again at the 50 yard line, this time with a chrono and a sweet 1/2 value wind from 4-5 o'clock at about 10-15. Phffft.

Anyway, the pics contain the powder, charge and statistical data. Some of it surprised insofar at the ES numbers, perhaps more so that they still managed to group after a fashion. Tried a couple more charges with WW540 and 2400, then some new with SR4759 and IMR4227. Live and learn?

I call this game CLUE.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Perhaps the funniest thing was the second group of 5 w/4227. The ES was 130 with the last shot dropping near 3" below the rest of what was actually a fair group...until then.

I expected the slower powders to be a little goofy, wasn't disappointed at all. Good news is there's still room in the case, the charges will be bumped in next iteration. Extraction was easy, the bore nasty after the WW540 and 2400. Impeccably clean after the first round with 4759. I mean spotless, save for a couple or three unburned kernels.

Other thing that was a bit tantalizing was that most of the groups were fairly tight save for a single outlying hit. Oddity of that was that the stray dog in the pack was mostly not the one round that skewed the ES numbers.





I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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I think your getting somewhere. A little hotter on the slow burners. SR 4759 is about as vertical as you can get. I'd say they are pretty good considering the wind you had today.

Any other powders in the works?

AA5744 burn rate is right there with 4227 and SR 4759. But it likes extra space in the case. That is what it is designed for. Easy to ignite also.


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This is word for word out of AA 2001 Reloaders Guide:

ZMP-5744 (AA5744) This short cut, extruded, double base rifle and pistol propellant is designed for use primarily in the Sharps Rifle Cartridges. It also works well in large capacity handgun cartridges of both conventional and IHMSA design. Shooters of cast bullets and reduced loads will find it useful in just about everything from 22 Hornet to the 50/140 Sharps.

NG* % 20.0%
Avg. Length .048
Avg. Grain Diameter. .033
Bulk Density ** .880 (Very low. ease of ignition and consistent velocity, regardless of powder position in the case.)
Comparative powders "Beyond Comparison"

* NG- Nitroglycerin (glyceryl trinitrate)
** glcc


It needs a heavy crimp or high SD of the bullets used.

Also, a high NG content reduces the effect of humidity and temperatures variances.


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Shot two loads with each powder today, 40 rounds all said and done. All were .2 grains apart in charge and except for the WW540 the targets posted are the low loads for each. What I found interesting was the increase of average velocity between increments. Ran about 20-40 fps for each powder, less for the slow burners and more for the fast.

Wild guess on my part, but I'm thinking the WW540 is near the end of the trail for significant increase in velocity. I will bump it again, but I don't expect to see it go much higher. The other three will get quite a bit more charge before it's over. I expect to run up to around 7-9 grains for each before that's settled, perhaps more. My imagination suggests that ES will settle down to very low numbers once load density gets over the 80% barrier.

Others waiting in the wings: 800X, WW571 and Li'l Gun as first priority, the others will have to wait a spell. Interest in the LG stems from the very excellent performance I've had with it under soft lead alloys in the past.

Good news is that at the range I deal with pigs, any load fired to date will do just dandy.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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I started using Lil'Gun back when it came out in the mid '90's. 1st for heavy magnums, but found out, just like you did that it works well reduced. Unlike some of the other slow burners like H110,296 and AA #9, which are dangerous to reduce.

Interesting is that Lil'gun was the powder used to develop the .17 HMR and CCI Velocitors. Good velocity at lower pressures. A little bit faster than your 4227 and SR4759.

I think you are in the correct burning rate range never the less.


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LG rocks, no mistake about it.

'Nuther gun on another day. 77/44 with 300 grain pure paper patched, 1600 fps out the muzzle. Loaded with LG. 8 shots, loaded in 2002 and fired 2011. #9 whacked a deer up in MS a few days later.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by DigitalDan; 11/27/15.

I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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[Linked Image]


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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"A-ten-SHUN". "No talking in the ranks".


"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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