Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire FBI Going Back to 9mm Handguns

I don't know why but there will always be people thinking we should all be carrying 1911 and carrying a M14 and damn everything else because they shot a bunch beer cans with their 45. In reality nothing wrong with a 9mm.. Just added the m14 reference cause it will eventually come up

Supposedly this is what made the Bureau go to a larger caliber:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

The US Marshall's Service conducted tests using various calibers against the same type of auto windshield at the same angle as the vehicle used by perps in this shooting incident and what was discovered was that the only handgun cartridge that made penetration was the 230 gr. .45 hardball!

Imagine that!

Supposedly the US Gov just bought 250 million rounds of 40 S&W. I'd tell the FBI they can keep their 40's until that ammo is gone or buy their own 9mm handgun and provide their own ammo.

How long do you think 250Million rounds would last the federal government?

The way the FBI agents and other LEO's I have known over the years shoot, 250 million rounds would last about 3 forevers.

Probably wouldn't surprise me much to find out that they were about out though…

Wouldn't be easier to simply state you have no idea WTF you're talking about?



Travis

How long do you figure they would last?

Well, first you'd have to gather a clue about what "US Gov" entails.

Then we could start to answer that question.



Travis

The 250 million was reported in the news earlier this year, if I remember correctly it was by the Department of Homeland Security. So how about all Federal law enforcement officers authorized to carry firearms and make arrests. I'm not sure what the number would be now, but a few years ago I saw some information that indicated the number would be around 130,000. If you bump that up to 150,000, as a wag (might be much more than that now with the IRS and librarians now packing), that would be about 1666 rounds/officer. Would it be safe to say that not all Federal officers would fire the same amount of ammo during a year?

My thoughts were based on some FBI Agents and a couple of Secrete Service agents that I have known and their comments. I doubt that from what they told me they would have ever fired their "allotment". I'm guessing that other officers would go through much more than that in a years time.

Still looks like to me that 250 million rounds of 40 S&W is a lot of shooting by somebody and there is likely a bunch still sitting around somewhere. You are right I don't know how long it would last, but from the Officers I have known, if their use was typical and their comments accurate, it would seem to be quite some time. Others milage may vary.

Our agency had 36 sworn armed officers, we went through approximately 60,000 rounds per year

We were given 300 rounds at every qualification, 100 of those were Duty rounds. We qualified 4 times a year

But all we had to do was ask and we could get more ammo.

Thanks for the information. I'm surprised! Comes out to about what I had guessed if divided evenly across the board. Would some officers use their allotment and some not?

I have had several good friends that were LEO's that I used to shoot with that did the majority of their shooting on their own dime. I never thought that was right and strongly support adequate training. Good to see if it is actually going on at the Federal level too.

I still have had the FBI friends that I believe just carried. They would talk about dreading qualifying. I always got the impression that I would worry more about them, If I saw them coming with a calculator and a box of pencils.

Some guys shot veryfrequently, others didnt.

I ended up with Lora of extra ammo

He'll when we switched calibers most of the guys gave me all of the .45 ammo they had left

I have always been thankful for those types.

One thing I know for fact was come time to do the line items on the budget, we NEVER had ammunition left in reserve

As well you shouldn't.

Not if you have smart administration

I could practice a week or two with that.

This!

no axe to grind...

despite any "knowledge/information out there"--i've always felt that one should be persuaded in their own mind.

i've long maintained that with proper loads, the 9mm can nearly share that rarified air with the .357 magnum in concealable, easy-to-pack snub length barrels. capable. without question, it is my favorite handgun round in so many respects.

regarding carry for the average everyday officer or civilian--it's a respectable choice--especially so when teamed up with proper pill selection. like it as i do, it is not my favorite for cc, much preferring the .45 auto. for guys that do carry a .45, regular/frequent range sessions are the key to acceptable skillsets.

i prefer the .45 and bigger pills for a couple of reasons:

in testing handgun pills for over 30 years, i've noted that oftentimes--depending upon the distance and medium, there is failure to expand--and you can ultimately "end up with what you started with", and in that regard bigger can be better.

this is one reason why i advocate the Taylor KO concept for handguns--as often times hollow point projectiles fail to expand, and you are then in essence basically shooting fmj or hard cast pills when this occurs. in a sense, any of these calculations/formulas are "abstractions" when it comes to performance, but they serve as a "benchmark", like grading tests, etc.

when looking at applying the Taylor concept to handguns, one has to ignore the "KO" notion--it's only about an abstract number for getting a baseline comparison. many hate it--subsequently, folks should go with what they happen to believe in.

thankfully, modern pills (such as the Gold Dot and Federal HST), often expand very nicely--moving the industry forward. typical plain vanilla 9mm hp often expand to approximately .55, while the HST can expand up to about .62--great medicine. the typical .45 vanilla's often go about .65, with the HST's expanding to about .83--also good medicine--by the Tablespoon.

in my estimation, there are a few good reasons for desiring wider/heavier pills, and aggressive, determined dogs that want to injure via "biting and ripping" was--for myself--a big factor. getting bit just once makes it clear.

just as the political climate swings like a pendulum, so to the concept of the ideal self defense handgun caliber/rig...

with any self defense rig, ultimately what matters is this:

you're going to bet your life at arm's length...

I've been reading all of these posts about what caliber is best but I only know that when the first bullet comes within a few inches of your head that you can hear the gates of Hell, rattle your reaction, in reality, may vary greatly.

Viet Nam, 1966

W. Bill