Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns I don't care about 50 yd accuracy!

I am a civilian and I was talking to my concealed carry instructor and he just laughed when I told him about this forum.
He said there is no way you could convince a judge that you were defending yourself from a threat at 50 yds away.
So all the talk about flat shooting, accurate handguns is not an issue in Minnesota.
What I want is something to defend against home invasion. Which would be a twelve gauge or a second choice would be a 45 acp


I will start the pop corn.
whelennut

Me thinks your instructor is a moron


A recent case in TX comes to mind where a CCW'ER shot an assailant with a handgun at 65 yards..

Judges and their rangefinders...it ain't right!

In a city 50 yards might seem like a long way not so much in a rural environment

Mike

If you see that super awesome instructor again, tell him that I said to eat a bag of dicks.

Fifty yard handguns are for deer hunting,........aren't they?

If I am forced to defend my life from a distance of fifty yards, in most scenarios, I would have access to a rifle.

Inside my house, when I thought the threat was imminent, I slept on the recliner with a Marlin 1894 in 41 mag across my lap and a Mossberg 500 w/ 12 ga #4's propped against the wall beside me.

A handgun is for when you really just don't expect any trouble.

This.

What guarantees that trouble will only occur within 7-10 feet?

[quote=
He said there is no way you could convince a judge that you were defending yourself from a threat at 50 yds away.

I would think that would depend on the circumstance(s) that lead up to confrontation.

I am just glad I sleep in the trailer when I visit.... Knock-knock....BOOM..."whose there"....

Well your instructor is about 99% correct...95% of civilian shootings take place within 7 yards...rarely over 25...but what if you were in the theater during the showing of Batman...or in one of the mall shootings.. Or drive around the deserts of the SW with Ron some time...

And quiet honestly I don't own a gun that I regularly carry that won't hold "minute of badguy" at fifty yards.... I know the three guns I regularly carry will do it...

Bob

So if I'm walking in my yard and a guy starts slinging shots at me for 150 yards I should just accept death?

Also, be sure to remind him that he is a Conservative Yankee, which as we know means a liberal.

A number of years back I responded to an incident on the snake river where some A-hole outlaw biker types were taking pot shots at some boaters/kayakers on the river. They were on the bluffs up top and were shooting down onto the people on the water.

The range was well in excess of 50 yards.

Again, years back, I responded to an incident where an estranged husband/boyfriend was shooting at a house occupied by his ex wife/GF.

The range was more than 50 yards from the road to the house.



Not too long ago, I responded to a hotel, in which a person murdered one guest, and shot one trooper, before shooting a bunch of rounds at me.

While the range was quite close where I pinned him up (in a stairwell), had I been able to engage him in one of the long hallways, I could have had a 50 yard shot opportunity.

Locally, the walmart, Costco, Winco, and various local grocery stores parking lots are all well over 100 yards across.

We have school hallways longer than 50 yards.

We have grocery stores where a 50 yard shot INSIDE would be possible.


The punchline is that while the "average" shooting is up close and personal, what guarantee do you have that you will have an "average" shooting?

You get the fight you get, not the one you want.

Some fights start up close, and due to people running, ducking dodging, etc, the ranges get extended. It is very easy for a fight that started inside, to spill out onto the street, where ranges can greatly increase.


In all seriousness Whelennut, I would find a different instructor.

There are a TON of guys out there who really want to be somebody important. They attend a basic NRA school, which to pass really does not require much more than a pulse, and the ability to pay, and then they hang out a shingle as an "NRA Instructor"

All of the sudden these guys are subject matter experts on virtually everything, including gunfighting, which I find a bit amusing, since the very vast majority have NEVER even heard a shot fired in anger.

So, with absolutely NO experience, they feel qualified to teach all about the subject. Personally I think most are in it, not because they like to teach others to improve their skill set, but do it instead to validate their "manhood" and convince themselves that they are alpha males.

Back on the topic of yardage:

Practicing at 50 yards is a smart move. If you can make solid hits at 50 yards,on a square range, then hits at 10 yards, while under pressure should be much easier.

Purely my observation.

Methinks also, X2....

"There are a TON of guys out there who really want to be somebody important. They attend a basic NRA school, which to pass really does not require much more than a pulse, and the ability to pay, and then they hang out a shingle as an "NRA Instructor" "

As one NRA Training Councilor {instructor trainer} I unfortunately know said... "Pay your money nobody flunks my class" ..and he was not kidding. Pulse and money are the only requirements.

Bob

Exactly. I've never practiced to kill someone; I shoot because I love pulling a trigger. Exceptional marksmanship ability is its own reward; if you can shoot well at 50 yds, you'll have no problem defending yourself at 5.

I think the vast majority of handgunners should be working on basic marksmanship, instead of "scenarios". But exercising sight alignment and trigger control is boring stuff, kinda like weight training. Much more fun is shooting lots of rounds quickly into multiple Bin Laden targets while ducking left (or right) after a draw. So cool.

Learn to shoot, then learn to fight. Tactics change, fundamentals don't. Too easy.

Maybe you should find another instructor. Mackay's post is "spot on". My thoughts on this are probably counter to most, but in my limited experience it's a good plan.
Bob

Not sure I totally agree with you Bob...

I have seen a LOT of shooters who can run 100 on a qualifier and do just fine to the point of making head shots from the holster from 25 yards completely fall apart when hit with a blind scenario...to the point of completely missing a silhouette target at 7 yards.

You talk about "scenarios"...IDPA puts on a lot of them...but they are really nothing more than choreographed target shooting. Put these same guys in the same scenario blind and watch the Grand Masters fall apart..have seen this for 20+ years...almost universally they rush and get themselves killed because they can't get the clock out of their head.

One of the guys on here has a son-in-law who is with the CHP..and a real good shooter. He made a "small" tactical error on a car chase and almost got his butt run over. The car passes within FEET of him and even with the drivers window down didn't not just hit the driver BUT NEVER TOUCHED THE CAR either.

Then there is the Dallas sergeant who fails to qualify {again} and is going back to the substation to write himself up and stops for a coffee on the way. Stops at one of the Stop N' Robs and runs right into a robbery in progress..and kills the robber... So much for the quals having anything to do with reality.

Gun fighting is a mentality with a little bit of ability.

Bob

ps...the above said, I regularly train shooters to hit out to 100 yards with their handguns and have done scenarios out to probably 50.

Notice the "when I thought the threat was imminent" part.

Our daughter's first ex was giving her grief, violating his restraining order, and generally being a complete POS. She and her little girl spent a couple nights at our house, and I spent the nights on the recliner.

Usually all of my firearms and ammo are locked in the safe.

I did notice that and hope we know each other well enough to know I was joking... I figured there must have been some serious problem for you to do that...Bob

Roger that. On my old dept I had a sgt that was terrified of qualifying...he got a 2-day suspension after not being able to after 3 tries. I helped him get through the 9mm transition course, which he barely completed. A few months later, after 2 more quals that almost got him removed from street duty for poor marksmanship, he got into 2 different shootings in 3 weeks...3 shots, two dead suspects.

I had a partner in Hollywood when I was in uniform who'd been in 4 shootings...no hits. Good policeman, though; we had fun together in patrol.

On the other hand, there's SGT York, phenomenal marksman, who commented after the war that he found it easier to head-shoot Germans shooting Maxim machine guns at him than hitting turkeys back home. Classic coupling of ability and performance under pressure.

My thoughts are that some people handle pressure and fear better than others. It's up to the shooter to apply the training he's been given. Confidence in your ability goes a long way towards prevailing.

Sometimes the situation isn't what you've trained for. But if you live, you've won.
Bob

Had a marine sgt tell me that once.

An idiot instructor instructing an idiot.

Win/win?



Travis

I'd like to know who the "Grand Master" was who "fell apart" in a scenario you put on.

I meant to be sarcastic in that one; guess I didn't quite succeed.
Bob

"Confidence in your ability goes a long way towards prevailing."

I've always said this because being able to unconsciously get your gun into play allows one to give 99% of your concentration to the situation at hand. In all the times I had to draw on someone I can only say the gun appeared in my hand. I have no memory of drawing it. It's the same way when doing the scenarios, buzzer goes off and the gun is on target....

Having confidence in your ability also allows you to not shoot someone, giving them that few seconds to decide to live instead of die...

Bob

I was sure your comment was tongue in cheek. no worries!

I probably should not have said "Grand Master" as I only know these people to be top shots and internationally known instructors...and it was not my shoot...it was the National Tactical Invitational...

The last part of the shoot was live fire Simunitions against real people...who for a change were very good actors. I think there was 11 or 12 teams. All the rest of the teams died in both scenarios because they went in with a "Game" mentality..bully your way through. They were all covered with hits. My one hit was in the support hand pinky knuckle and I killed the guy. My partner got hit in the shoulder just as we were about to exit the second scenario...and I killed the guy.

I just did it like I did on the street...none of the others had ever done it "for real" before.

Bob

Having the capability of hitting at 50yds and 100yds, on a man size target, with a duty/CC carry gun, should never be diminished by any instructor.

Any instructor that would do so is a fugking moron.





Travis

It was before a bar fight anyway.

Lawton, OK. 1987

A well-rounded shooter should be able to do reasonably well at any reasonable distance, but why this silliness must continually be debated in theoretical terms continues to escape me.

The paradigm of small arms conflict involving both citizens and cops has been fairly steady since the invention of black powder. It ain't rocket science.

While the occasional anomaly will always exist, the overwhelming majority of engagements are predictably measured in feet – not yards. A prudent man will prepare himself well for the probability before wasting time and resources on the outlying possibility.

Shooting static, full-size steel targets at 50 yards or more in the bright light of a square range bears little correlation to the skills necessary to dominate close range engagements at moving targets in low light.

Agreed, Gitem, instructor is a idiot!
And I beleive the incedent your referring to, happened in Brown County, TX, about 75 miles south of me. Local SO responded to a shooting where the bad guy killed his neighbor over a dog barking dispute. When SO arrived on scene, the bad guy shot and killed the first Deputy that responded. During the shootout, a elderly CHL holder in his late 70's shot and killed the Perp at 60 to 75 yards with a .357 Magnum.
Moral of the story, don't piss off a old Texan that can shoot a handgun!

And as to making long range shots with a handgun, I started shooting Sillhoutte Competition in 1980 with a Super Black Hawk with a 7.5" barrel in 44 mag. We shot Ram steel targets at 200 yards, and turkey steel targets at 200 yards in the shoot off if the match was tied after 40 rounds. And it wasn't unusual to see a shooter hit all 5 turkeys at 200 yards with just a plain old revolver.
Personally, I can hit a 10" steel plate fairly regularly with my Glock 10mm. Not all that hard to do with some frequent practice, IMO

Grand master B?

So we should only train for close range, moving targets, in low light?



Travis

long time ago playing county popo we regularly practiced out to 50yards, strong hand, weak hand, double handed, left and right barricade.
You don't know what you are going to run into. distances can be short, or they can be longer. The cartels station people up on hilltops to monitor floor/valley activity. Those carry good long range optics setup systems.
If you had a choice you would chose a rifle for sure but you may not have that choice.
I remember the first dept public safety course i ran through, they did a lot of their shooting up close like five and 7yards. I thought it was pretty funny.
but what do you expect from tail light chasers.
I have always felt the capability to hit at longer distances made shorter distances like shooting at the side of a barn.
The other comment is if you are going to carry, it isn't about paper targets. Probably admitting what it could be potentially used for is a good thing, and the mind set/skills needed to do it.

sometime stand between two patrol cars when it is pitch black out with all lights going and the sirens and welpers at full blast and try to hit some targets. Much different game.

if that guy was shooting at you, i don't think 50yards would throw a judge, particularly with a rifle.
tell the instructor to go back to class. all of that is situational.

a lot of these firearms training classes are on paper targets, places like gunsight being the exception. Reading some of sagebrush's exploits with a pistola on rabbits always made me think of my dad.
His comment was when you get good enought to pop bunnies on the run consistently, then you have learned the game.
It isn't so easy.
Many times out quail hunting that is the game. trying to hit jackrabbits at a full gallop with a handgun till they are out of sight.

For me it all boils down to one thing before a trigger gets pulled, can I obtain the necessary sight picture, sight alignment and trigger pull to achieve the desired hit? If I am trying to hit an 8" circle at 3 yards just about anything will work. Trying to hit that same 8" at 50 yards in bad light might be a shot I would take under one set of circumstance and will pass under others.

Someone said something like "a man's gotta know his limitations". I agree but add that a man needs to know his lowest true level of abilities, when he is at his worst. Under stress we do not rise to the occasion, we tend to drop to our lowest level of unconscious competence.

I am still alive so GFY!

Yet another of God's many miracles.




Dave

Any time someone has to resort to name calling they are admitting they have run out of ammunition in the battle of wits.

When you gather some wits, you let me know.



Travis

When the feces hits the fan you will do what you were trained to do. Shooting static line qualifications can be used to better your fundamentals of trigger control, sight picture, front sight, front sight, front sight, follow through. Unfortunately for officers who have their qualifications run that way I'd hazard a guess that most deadly force encounters are anything but static, but rather are ever-changing dynamic situations where decisions must be made in fractions of a second.

Shooting a blind course, where you have to clear a "house", and each time the arrangement of bad guys and victims is altered forces the shooter to find another unique solution to their deadly force encounter.

It bears repeating: when the feces hits the fan you will do what you were trained to do. If you weren't trained to deal with dynamic, fluid, ever-changing situations where you have to make split second decisions, you'll just stand there and get shot. If you didn't train to deal with a such a deadly force encounter you will do what you trained to do - nothing.

It's amazing, then, that so many armed Americans who aren't trained to a particularly high level, manage to come out on top against armed bad guys every year.

It's my opinion that the difference in practical "bad guy stopping ability" between the type of trained shooter you're referring to and your average weekend paper target shooter is small compared to the difference between your average weekend paper target shooter and the typical sock drawer handgun keeper, yet even the sock drawer handgun keepers rack up lots of victories against armed bad guys every year.

You can take the necessity for training to ridiculous extremes, in other words. Ninety percent of the gains in ability against armed criminals is acquired by just being familiar with your sidearm, being smooth and sure in your draw and fire, and a reasonable amount of range time per month shooting static targets with a serious state of mind. Being a regular attendee at Gunsite, etc., helps fill in the gap between 90% and 100%.

In other words, it becomes a matter of diminishing returns after a certain point. Not that there's anything wrong with it, and for those who put themselves in harm's way for a living, it's likely a prudent measure, but for all others, its benefits vs costs are questionable, apart from satisfying Walter Mitty type fantasies.

If you carry a handgun and only are trained to shoot, or only practice shooting at close range, it's like taking flying lessons where they only teach you to take the plane off...

Ok, I'll play devil's advocate……...



I'm no candidate for mensa, but, slow witted as I may be, it seems that this whole discussion doesn't have anything to do with police officers responding to "shots fired" calls or squad leaders on a recon patrol in the desert. Neither does it have to do with whether you should be able to shoot in the dark, hit moving targets or practice at distance. A cursory glance at the text would seem to indicate that the instructor was talking to a CIVILIAN taking a CONCEALED CARRY CLASS about convincing a judge/jury that he was DEFENDING HIMSELF when he shot someone 50 yards away.

At 50 yards there is no disparity of force argument---the size, age, number, gender, etc. of the perp is irrelevant, as are threatening verbiage and movements. In fact for a concealed carrying civilian (not a responding officer or soldier on patrol)--a person at 50 yards only becomes a justifiably "shootable" threat if they are an active shooter that initiates the altercation (i.e. they shoot first). Taking into consideration the typical skill level of the typical civilian in the typical concealed carry class, when you add the pucker factor of taking incoming fire, they are for all practical purposes unarmed and represent a greater threat to innocent bystanders than they do the perp if they return fire. If you subscribe to Clint Smith's dictum that "every round you shoot has a lawyer attached to it," it's easy to see why an instructor would tell a class that shooting someone at that distance would be difficult to justify.

Should we be able to hit a target at 50 yards? Absolutely. Should we practice on moving targets in low light while we're moving? Absolutely. Is that the point being made by in the original post. I don't think so.

JMO--of course, I could be wrong.

Gmoats, no way does the 50 yard adversary have to fire first, all he has to do is demonstrate intent to fire and one is justified in defending ones self

….at 50 yards "demonstrating intent" in most urban environments will be pretty hard to establish I'm guessing…..Out on the ranch, no problem…….on a crowded city street, different story…….if someone walks into a mall carrying a long gun, are you justified in shooting them??? Better not…….a few months ago, I friend of mine was in a Starbucks in Cheyenne. A guy walks in with a collapsible stock AK slung over his shoulder, ordered a cup of coffee and sat down……not sure where injudicious behavior ends and "demonstrating intent" starts…...of course, I could be wrong….

You're in a "duty to retreat" state and your ex-wife comes rolling up to your place and gets out of her car with a handgun yelling that she's going to kill you. You're standing beside your masonary construction house and can just step inside and close the solid hardwood door, slam the dead bolt and call the cops. Instead you take a rest and kill her dead relying on your uber bear shooting skills. Hopefully you've got some bear-grease left over from your last kill for Tyrese to use on your ass. You might be wishing Tyrese didn't have such a big meplat.

Interesting that you know Tyrese's preference

Just guesswork. As you're so fond of saying, knowledge trumps it so I'll defer to you on the subject.

There's no downside in being able and confident with a defensive handgun at 50 yards...or even further.

At the USMC's "High Risk Personnel" course, we did tons of shooting in all kinds of dynamic scenarios, near to far.

One of the things we did was 200 yards prone, with 9mm pistols. Yeah it's a low percentage shot, but you might at least be able to suppress an active shooter for a short time.

Different times nowadays, it's not just muggers in dark alleys anymore.

If the OP's info applies to his state and he wished to share it for the edification of fellow residents- fine, I get that.

If his 'instructor' is insinuating those restrictions apply everywhere or that one is never entitled to defense at further than spitting distance, he is full of schizzt as the proverbial Christmas goose. All it takes is one drunk or crazy fool with a .22 rifle or Grandpa's shotgun. If you think getting leaded down at 50-100 yards is preferable to being option of being able to use your handgun at those distances- then by all means be that duck in a shooting gallery.

Like Mr. Sagebrush, I can instances where morons were taking potshots at folks from what would be considered long range in defensive circles. Even had such an exchange myself late one night involving some drunk coon (I suppose) hunters some 200 yards away, where they had stopped along my creek to raise hell. My dogs heard the ruckus and woke me up. They had lit themselves up; I hadn't. I yelled, from behind a tree, that they were trespassing and to get moving along, Our brief exchange of words soon turned into cursing and threats, spiced with a barrage of what sounded like .22 semi-auto fire up the hill toward the sound of my voice. Four rounds of 30-30, directed into the hillside about 50 yards above them, resolved the matter w/o apparent bloodshed; or at least the deputy and I didn't find any blood among the dropped booze, .22 casings and garbage left in their wake. He seemed to find it all rather humorous and mentioned to me later that is was the talk of bars and coffee shops for several weeks.

It makes sense after seeing a few photos that GREASE would be your pick.

Thank you! You seem to be the only person who understands the point I was trying to make.
Most shootings take place at 7 yards or less.
(Not 50yds.)
Also a civilian normally cannot act like an infantry soldier. We may have to explain ourselves to a judge. There is a case I heard about where a Chicago cop could get life in prison for shooting a kid with a knife. I can only imagine the consequences if a judge in Minnesota decided that
there was a chance to leave the situation but instead stayed to have a gun battle from 50 yds away. We would end up with free room and board for a long time.
whelennut

Rich girls use Vasolene,
Poor girls use lard,
My girl uses axle grease,
and takes it twice as hard.

A lot of these 'active shooter' situations in public places like shopping areas, malls, theaters, restaurants, schools, workplace, etc, etc, have 'terrain' that could easily put you in a defensive situation at a distances well beyond 7 yards.

Not everybody is a soldier, cop or gamer and gets to train and practice constantly. Given that fact, practicing the most likely scenario is probably the best. The most likely scenario is a defensive shooting at very close range. No doubt that practice can be augmented by longer range shooting/different scenarios if there is opportunity. As to whether or not a given shooting is defensible in court, it would all depend on what happened, but there are possibilities in both realms.

MM,
I will leave those scenarios to the Soldiers of Fortune on the forum.
I will only fire as a last resort. I don't think I would enjoy prison life.

I don't train much these days either. But even if I'm only going to shoot 50 rounds, I'll shoot 40 doing close range drills, and 10 of them at some distance.

Some people obviously die easier than others.

Do you do any unaimed? Point-shooting or the like? Or do you only do aimed fire?

I've got to where I do a lot of 7 yard practicing. The more I did unaimed fire even from close range, the more I think aimed fire is the way to go.

MontanaMarine…..absolutely agree; we need to train at distance and with multiple "no shoots" to include "shoot thru" targets……however your typical concealed carrying civilian shooting at 50 yards thru a crowded mall, theater, restaurant, school, workplace is certainly not prudent and possibly not defensible in court assuming that it isn't successful with the first shot……not saying it isn't possible nor that we shouldn't train for it, just that (as the original poster said) that the average civilian in a concealed carry class should be told it's generally a VERY bad idea.

There was a home invasion in town here awhile ago.
Some guy had a an intruder come in through the back door while two were coming in the front door.
They pistol whipped him and took some cash and who knows what else.
Why do I think he maybe was a drug dealer?
I have never heard of any long range gun battles around here.
I think the best strategy is to stay out of these situations. I am retired and live in the country
and am familiar with the Ithaca 37 LAPD.

That's why I never drive anywhere I could get into an accident...

Cover and concealment!

My son is 14 fugking years old and I can promise you don't want to be a coffee can at 50yds if he's shooting his Model 14 in that direction.

Anybody that can't make solid hits with a pistol at 50yds is a moron, or lazy.




Travis

…..well flave, he's not an "average civilian"……..he won the heredity and environment lottery from the get-go. BTW, how do those compare to dog years?

I only practice point shooting at 3 yards or so. I like to at least get a flash front sight beyond that distance.

I do some practicing up close, fast, moving, from the ground, and so on.

Here's a couple rough vids from a while back. not polished, so go ahead and laugh if you need to,

https://www.facebook.com/shane.pitz...3271/817610011595374/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/shane.pitz...3271/817704008252641/?type=3&theater

I'd say your guessing wrong. Some points a gun in my direction in an urban setting in a shooting position seems to make intent rather clear.

Making a lot of assumption here, hope the windows are bullet proof as well.

Is Tyrese the name of the EE's Pedersoli?

Thanks.

You maybe on to something!

His EE putting on a few pounds?

How many of those have you been to?

that walking into the target is something i try to get people to do that are used to punching paper targets from a stationary position.
as it was explained to me, people expect you to retreat, walking into the target gives you a psychological atvantage, as their little brains without thinking tell them to retreat. It is more difficult than it looks.

Not sure. I hate dogs.




Travis

When I took Ayoob's LFI way back in the '90's, I recall him talking about a case where someone shot a man holding a J frame S&W on him. The range was "long" (but I don't recall how "long"). Ayoob was called to testify because the DA chose to press charges on the grounds that a J frame at that range was no threat (I'm thinking it was somewhere between 25-50 yards). So Ayoob took out a J frame (on video) and put 3 our of 5 rounds onto a man sized target at 100 yards, which pretty much shot down (no pun intended) the DA's case.

Seems like instead of bragging that one can't hit a target at 50 yds, they should practice.

I don't ever recall anyone being criticized for being too good of a shot after a shooting.

People that think too much figure that the information will be held agin' ya' in a court of law, showing that you are some sort of uber gun nut.

Or some such [bleep].

The number one rule of a gunfight is to win.

Sometimes people ignore the obvious.

458 Lott
In Minnesota we have to be a "Reluctant Participant". Shooting a human being has to be a last resort.
Otherwise you can brag about what a great shot you are to your cell mates after they lock you up.
Is has nothing to do with your ability to make a long shot. That is why there are prairie dog towns,

As I said, some people die easy. Seems folks living in liberal states are as easy to slay as sheep.

Congrats?

I just enjoy the crap out of long range handgunning. And I've found that if I can hit a clay pigeon against a backstop at 100 yards, than a coke can at 7 yards is a piece of cake.

But perhaps those days are over for me. Just got a new eyeglass prescription and while I can see the clay pigeon just fine, the sights are REALLY fuzzy now. I haven't been out shooting since I got the new specs....gonna suck if I cant hit at long range anymore...like REALLY suck.

No, the number one rule of a gun fight is to SURVIVE. There have been many who "won" a gun fight, and died after the fact.

My "goal" is if I'm ever in a gun fight (God forbid), I hope to leave with absolutely no more holes than I was born with. While shooting I plan on moving around like an ADHD 6th grader after a a six pack of Red Bull. Be where the bullets ain't.

What is the definition of "Reluctant Participant"? Does that mean you have a duty to retreat if possible?

In most states there are 4-5 basic conditions for lethal force in self defense:

1 - You have to be the innocent party; as in, not the aggressor
2 - The threat has to be imminent
3 - The amount of force you use has to be proportional to the threat
4 - Your conduct has to be deemed "reasonable"
5 - In some states you have the duty to retreat

In Minnesota you have the duty to retreat. What a frigging shameful thing that is.

I'm pretty sure you have taken at least 2 slugs to you're body before you can return fire in Minnesota.

HOW THE [bleep] anyone could live in such a liberal state and happily pay taxes to those bastards is BEYOND me.

I was a Charter Member of the Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance.
We had to lobby a long time just for the right to carry.
I used to shoot on the State Service Rifle team and we had a district judge on the team.
He told me that we had a duty to retreat to the furthest corner of the house if someone came in the front door. If jumping out the window and running to the neighbors house was an option
that would probably be expected.
Things have changed a little for the better but not enough.
whelennut

Would you rather be judged by 12 or carried by six?

The government can tell me I have a duty to be a coward, but I damn well won't put the "duty to the state" above my duty to protect my family.

True dat. MN Castle Doctrine bill went nowhere in 2015 (IIRC). And it won't get passed until and unless Governor Mark (Crazy Eyes) Dayton gets his azz voted outta office..

Nah - not that bad. But if you're just getting the chit kicked outta ya, ya can't draw that howitzer and let 'er rip.. Azzkicking dude's gotta have a weapon of some sort.. And yes - it's idiocy..

WI laws are quite a bit easier for a person to defend themselves, and this state does have a Castle-Doctrine law.. Last, as a bonus, it's NOT controlled by the damn Dems..

Good ol' "Evacuatin' Dayton". You guys can't get rid of HIM?

I believe there's less than 5 states that still have that requirement, all in the NE. Let's hope common sense arrives sometime soon.