Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Some thoughts on training

Sorry but I am going to ramble, I hear to many conversations about a set skill level, some magic number on a timer or what defines someone as "good". What we need to do is find our own limitations based on the skill and equipment we choose or are required to use. If you carry an HSLD carbine strapped to your chest or have to shove a LCR in your pocket for maximum concealment you need to know what you can or cannot do with it.

It is not enough to remember the one time at band camp when you did pull off a 25 yard head shot in 1 second from deep cover. You need to know what you can do when you are at your worst and realize your "one second draw" might become 5+ seconds because the fight starts when the bad guy sucker punches you, knocks you to the ground and now you have to get off your ample belly to even get your hand into that pocket. Even better let the fight start with a beer bottle to the head that creates enough blood you cannot see and you realize drawing your gun will be a greater liability than keeping it secured in the holster. I mentioned it in a recent post about picking a .40, I know on a square range when I feel good and the birds are chirping, I don't loose a lot of time between a 9mm and a .40. But when reality hits and I am digging it out from concealment and get a less than perfect grip a 9mm is going to be a lot more forgiving. Last time I worked hard with a .40 I murdered a draw, my web hit the add on glock backstrap and folded it down, getting a proper grip was impossible to shoot a string with a .40 and maybe with a 9mm I could have done it, but I had to basically stop, fold it back up and finish the drill. I had probably made 1000 draws with that backstrap and the reason I had the failure is I was working at maximum speed trying to achieve a goal. I would have never known the potential problem if I had not tried to push my limits. Needless to say it went in the garbage and a lot of people that were using them did the same.

Travis Haley (and I am sure others) said it well when they say "amateurs train until they get it right, professionals train until they get it wrong". As with almost any discipline we need to get outside our comfort zone and be willing to fail in order to succeed. When I practice hard it is not pretty. I have fumbled and dropped magazines, missed a full target at 7 yards and brain farted on many things. All issues that would never show up on a department qualification where times are generous, the skill set is simple and a known course of fire.

How often do you really push yourself in any training or in front of others where failure is nothing more than a mild slap to the ego? When we push ourselves to failure is when we really learn how to improve. If you can consistently complete a skill in x seconds and always train in that comfort zone how do you ever expect to do it more efficiently? Failure and the subsequent analysis needs to be a regular part of our training if we want to excel. To many times we settle for "good enough" as a destination when it needs to be a building block for excellence.

Makes a lot of sense.

I used to train pretty hard when I was part of the instructor cadre at the Marine Security Guard school at Quantico.

Nowadays, I'll admit I'm in the 'good enough' camp. I shoot a few drills from concealed now and then, shoot some non-standard stuff like on the ground, moving, etc, but not anywhere close enough to keep the muscle memory as sharp as it was when I was shooting weekly or sometimes nearly daily.

It was a lot more convenient and pretty much cost-free with the ammo and facilities available then.

...what continually amazes me is when someone posts useful or thought provoking material concerning training, methodology, or skillsets--skillsets that they can demonstrate--there are very few replies. little to just about none....

by contrast, someone might post a pic of their new grips, speedloaders, holster, etc. (not a bad thing--and at times interesting), and there almost always follows a virtual flood of replies...which i find astounding...

the two fellas who posted above--and a few others on this forum--make it worthwhile for me to stop in and read on occasion...

I will admit I am not as good as i once was... Age, life circumstances, don't own a custom 1911 and haven't been to multi thousand dollar training sites. Hell I don't even own a pair of 5.11 tactical pants,or shot timer so I guess I might as well surrender now. Lol

A little stress, whether in training or in real life, and things often go haywire.

My thoughts are, I used competition as training, never trying to win the competition, but rather, trying to live Cooper's mantra, "Diligentia, vis, celeritas," Accuracy, Power, Speed. I didn't "push the pace" until I'd mastered the accuracy. I wanted to have the smallest groups of anyone in the competition. I wanted the other competitors to know that it wasn't a game to me, but rather training. Power was 2nd and speed was a distant 3rd for me.

On duty, with OSI, I carried a chopped .45acp, I believe built by the armorers at Brooks AFB from a Remington Rand 1911A1, so my competition gun was a Series 70 Colt. I used full house ammunition, 230 grain lead truncated cone loaded to 890 fps average and it was a stout load with stout recoil, compared to the barely functioning race loads my fellow competitors used. My competition weapon was street stock, with the only major modifications being the sights and doing away with the collet bushing. No compensator, full length guide rods, funneled mag wells etc.

Finally, I worked on my speed. Sometimes, I'd just shoot for the head. Other times, the heart and sometimes, the belly. My first rule per Cooper was accuracy. I had many competitors tell me I could improve my speed if I wouldn't worry so much about groups. Then, when they saw what ammo I was using, they'd shake their heads coz I was a lost cause.

At the end of the day, even with my pace, invariably I'd be in 2nd or 3rd place, and occasionally, in 1st place. I really shined with the steel challenge style matches. Having worked so hard on my accuracy, smacking those steel plates was a breeze. I started taking home more prizes.

My philosophy was, speed would come, but I saw too many competitors who were blazingly fast with 10" groups, while I was just a shade slower, with 3" groups. Yes, I know, a periphery hit will probably slow an attacker and allow for a quick follow up, but there are too many cases of bad guys soaking up considerable lead before they are dispatched. I wasn't just satisfied with center mass. I wanted to pick out the left or right atrium of the heart or the left or right eyeball, in the same time frame.

As for analyzing the failure...if your physical technique was correct, then the failure was always one of two things. Sight picture or trigger squeeze or a combination of either.

Once I reached the level I was satisfied with, I stopped competing and just did individual training to satisfy myself. Drawing that USAF modified Remington from concealment was a snap. Multiple targets, partially obscured targets, targets behind penetrable surfaces, I practiced it all.

One day in Germany, I was spending some training time on a range shared by the German GSG9 crew in Wiesbaden. I was doing my typical training drills and started to draw a small audience. I finished with a draw from concealment and engaging three silhouettes. All three shots were head shots. I drew applause. It's sort of neat drawing applause from anti-terror operators.

So, my thoughts are, above all else, hit what you intend to hit. Once you can do that, push the pace until you can't do it and then back off and work on the accuracy again. It won't be long, and you'll be faster than you ever though possible, but you'll also be shooting groups others will be envious of.

Postscript: Last week I drove to the range to burn my carry ammo and freshen the magazines with new stuff. I walked up to a target, stopped at 10 yards, drew and smacked it in the head, first shot from my little Springer XD-S. About 2 seconds from the draw. Not top speed, but good enough. Then I burned off the remaining 9 shots from my two mags, and went home. No extended range session, no grueling hand-pounding training. Just a couple mags and home, satisfied everything is till working well, both mechanically, and physically.

Good thoughts on not chasing "X" standard, but finding your own potential.

I got away from the 40 because it slowed the subsequent shots down. I am not an expert not do I shoot a handgun as much as I used too. The 9 allows me to make more shots in less time.

My philosophy mirrors the eloquent Mr. Chamberlain. I never pushed for speed...I practiced to be smooth. Anytime I shot a match and shot smooth I shot the best I could be. Any time I wasn't smooth...you loose.

I shot IPSC from its inception in the 1970s to 1995 when I just could not stand the unrealistic scenarios any more. I've run as realistic tactical shoots since 1992 but rarely get to shoot in them.

Started shooting IDPA in 2013 knowing it was also a joke but needed trigger time so I just shoot it my way and accept the penalties. I always use cover even if it costs me time and reload behind cover instead of waiting till I run out of ammo which everyone else does. With their inevitable 12 round scenarios they remind me of the Gamesman of early IPSC who designed all the shoots around the 7 round .45 1911 Magazine...sad.

But it isn't ones ability with a gun that wins gun fights...it is mindset and tactics. You can be the best shot on the Square Range and get killed by a punk that never even shot his gun before he stuck it in his pants....and then in your face.

As to learning tactics, there are some pretty good schools out there but they all lack one thing...the ability to kill you if you screw up. And that is a major problem for the student as he knows even if he screws up he still goes home. After you search your first building knowing there is a badguy inside you'll understand what I mean...

So practice, read, visualize and talk to those who have been there and done that as it is the best you can do, and it is far better than doing nothing....

Bob

I will add that I am a huge proponent of dry fire and air soft for aspects of "tactical" training. Too many times we use our square range time for drills that are best done dry. I know when my first agency finally got a 360 degree shoot house everyone wanted to go guns blazing on everything we did and I am honestly surprised nobody got killed in those first few months. A better plan would be to run room clearing drills a couple hundred times dry before ever firing a shot. Also in a basic academy class I got to observe an instructor teaching weak hand draws with a hot gun to people who had little pistol experience. I was amazed nobody left with extra holes and it was a horrible use of limited range time. This is a skill that could have been shared when there was extra time during lunch instead of watching another 30 minutes of "Cops".

Nobody needs a custom 1911 or multi thousand dollar classes to become proficient or know their limits. My Dad is getting old and knows his physical skills are not what they used to be and is compensating accordingly. Over the years he has dropped from a .45 to 9mm to a Ruger .22 because that is all he can handle but you can be damn sure he is pretty surgical with his placement. He also knows he has limited penetration and terminal efficiency and keeps that in mind at all times.

I encourage everyone to take a good look at their gear, look at themselves in the mirror and take the time to really understand their own abilities and liabilities regardless of what they carry.

After years of avoiding optics I am finally going to run one on a fighting rifle. I have a whole new learning curve of what I can do better or what I might have to compromise. I would bet a months pay check I could pass the basic qual after a quick zero but that does not mean I have learned how to exploit the options an optic gives in a fight. I am on a tighter budget than ever and plan an drying firing a ton, using the .22 kit for anything under 50 yards and acclimating to a new trigger before I would consider carrying it when it would matter.

For decades, dry fire has constituted most of my trigger time. It was easy when I carried revolvers, but became more complicated when I recently switched to a Glock. That is until I received delivery of a SIRT training pistol. Anyone who carries a Glock needs one.

you made me think of something. Back in the dark ages, we had to practice at nigh, no lights, clearing a building. I never knew anybody that survived.

I agree with most of what has been posted here.

I will add that I have included flexibility, physical fitness, and martial arts as a major component of my training.

I am adding grappling to the skill set in 2016.

My range time is every Sunday morning (go to church on Saturday evening).

I shoot 100 to 200 rounds. I vary weapons and sighting systems.

Shooting hours run to 8 pm and I get some low light shooting in.

BMT

after doing Kenpo for a long long time, I realized that the jujitsu boys would kill you if they got you on the ground! Awesome that your doing the grappling!! Now too old and too slow I just go to the gym (strength and cardio) with crossfit. If your not in reasonable shape physically and mentally well then...have another beer....

All of us like to think we are a cross between Wild Bill Hitchcock shooting aspirins out of the air and Daniel Boone knocking squirrels out of a tree free hand at 100 yards...when in reality it just ain't so, TV don't help folks with pistols shooting knives out of hands at 25 yards etc.

Then there is that adrenaline thing that really throws a wrench in it...

Great posts by Dan Chamberlain, RJM & others.

I've always strived for what Dan is saying above, probably because the 1st type of competitive shooting I did was BE, where accuracy is what counts, but it's carried over into all other types as well.

I also believe that good & on-going physical fitness certainly elevates ones quickness & also helps with the mental attitude & focus no matter the endeavor.

Probably the 2 single lessons that I've retained forever from my competitive shooting is front sight focus & trigger control.

Once trigger control is mastered, all else is more or less automatic........get the gun up, on target & then muscle memory from learning & repetitiveness simply takes over & the gun goes off, almost of it's own volition.

Doesn't really matter much whether it's a pistol or a rifle, hunting or competition.......or something else. (Assuming that you do intend to shoot, in the 1st place)

Training & practice simply continue to reinforce what (hopefully) one has already learned.

I do think there are 3 distinct types of shooters though:

Those that are naturals & need minimal training
Those that are not naturals but can become good shooters through training
Those that will never be good shooters no matter how much training they get.

YMMV

MM

There are a few that believe one shoe fits all. I've met more than my fair share of folks that think because they need X number of hours to be able to do something, then everyone else must need the same amount.

It looks like a number of the participants on this thread, like myself, are a little long in the tooth. Since we’re “ranting” about training here are a couple of mine:

About a year ago, I attended a “tactical handgun” shoot for a fairly new club. One participant in particular caught my eye; he was a young man dressed in BDU’s, had a drop-thigh holster and wore a tactical, magazine-laden vest. He was wearing military gloves of some sort. I don’t know about the rest of his body, but tattoos graced his neck and both ear lobes had grommeted sized rings that you could hang a carabiner from. He wore a cap with the American Sniper “punisher skull” logo on it and had a long narrow goatee that hung down to his magazine vest projecting a James Yeager wannabe look. When told to “load and make ready,” he drew his handgun, brought it to center-chest and pushed it straight out into the most beautiful Isosceles Triangle stance that you’ve ever seen. Taking a quick sight picture on the first target, he brought the gun straight back to center-chest, tilted the gun 45 degrees starboard and smartly inserted a magazine. Racking the slide via a firm sling-shot, he brought the gun back to center-chest and then down into the holster. As he assumed his start position, he lowered his chin, slightly hunched his shoulders and shifted his weight to the balls of his feet causing him to lean toward the first target. He looked like an over caffeinated panther getting ready to pounce on a gazelle. When the buzzer went off, he drew the gun back to his center-chest, pushed the gun out into a perfect Isosceles stance and double-tapped the first three targets so quickly that I could hardly count the shots. With his finger straight along the frame, he ran to the barricade at the second and final position and engaged the last three targets with double-taps at an Uzi-rate-of-fire cadence. After the sixth shot, he brought the gun back to center-chest and checked his 6 looking over his right and left shoulders in a tactical genuflect that would make Rob Pincus turn green with envy. He unloaded and as we walked to the first bank of targets I asked him where he had trained. He said that he’d never taken a class from anyone, but spent alot of time on you tube and had bought some dvds! I don’t remember his total score but on the six total targets, two had no hits what-so-ever, two had one peripheral hit each, no targets had two A hits. The kid was a paragon of protocol and style and certainly looked tacti-cool, but couldn’t hit his butt with both hands.

He’s apparently used to pushing himself beyond his ability; problem is, that all he’s done. I get a little miffed at the condescension directed at training on a “square range” with stationary targets from a static position. I’m afraid that there’s a whole upcoming generation of Gen X’ers or Millennials whose sole skill is impersonating what they see on you tube.

Since I’m ranting about training, another burr under my saddle is the proliferation of shooting schools being run by Delta/SOCOM/Recon/Seal/Rangers just back from the desert with “modern” combat techniques. I briefly subscribed to an online training site run by a Seal that promised “new breakthough” techniques and tactics. What a joke that was. His first lesson was to put a mark on your front site to focus on. How’s that for break-through revelation! What most of those guys don’t know is that in the late 70’s and 80’s, most of those organizations went to the square range, stationary target, static position schools to learn to shoot! I was fortunate enough to have been in the first class that Ray ever ran at the Chapman Academy. Since I lived close, we became friends and I helped him with some classes. I remember the Seals coming to the Academy to work with Ray. Yes, he had a moving target (the Bianchi Cup mover), but the only moving that was done was a modification of the old Mexican Defense Course. They also went to Berryville to work with Bill Wilson and to MISS to work with John Shaw, two guys that never wore any kind of uniform or heard a shot fired outside the confines of IPSC, much less in anger. Apparently all of the square range, static training didn’t get them all killed as they kept coming back.

People decrying competitive shooting, primarily IPSC and IDPA would benefit by shutting up. “That stuff will get you killed on the street” is a mantra for those who aren’t good enough to be competitive. “What you do in practice you’ll do in a fight,” is spouted by shooters who primarily use the excuse of bad tactics allowed in competition to mask their inability to handle match pressure and/or shoot under the close scrutiny of judgmental observers. Are there silly rules? Yup. So what. It’s not “training” it’s “testing.” Man up, shoot and shut up!

OK, I get that things have progressed and that there are probably more advanced techniques and training styles; that doesn’t negate the virtue of past training techniques, nor the value of placing yourself on the line to compete once in a while, even if it’s bowling pins or cowboy action shooting, it’s pressure.

Sorry for the rant----

Well, since Gmoats got started I'll chime in too.

I really believe that the reason "gamers" get such a bad rep is that nobody understands what they're doing....They just think "I can't hit a target that fast, so nobody else can either".

Sure, some folks spray-n-pray, but not the winners. In Production Division of USPSA the winners are hitting a 6"x11" target with 90% of their shots, regardless of the distance.

And they're doing it with guns that are nearly identical to carry guns, with the exception of barrel length. A lot of the carry guns posted here wouldn't be legal. So don't blather on about "race-guns".

And yes, they are reliable. As least the winners' guns are reliable. I beat someone at a match last year by 0.03 seconds, over six stages. A few months later I was beat by 1.5 seconds over six stages. ONE malfunction in a match is enough to ruin you. Sure, the losers are fighting their guns. But that's because they're losers. People who take the sport seriously don't have malfunctions. And when they do, they lose.

And yes, the stress is simulated. But until people are shooting at you in anger, the stress will be simulated. Even in the holy-grail of simunitions training, the stress is simulated. I do a lot of simunitions training and I've never, ever felt as stressed about it as I do in a competition.

For the weekend warriors, and there's nothing wrong with that, who shoot a local match with their friends a few times a year--I'm sure the stress can be somewhat ignored. But I've even seen those people, people with tactical training and jobs that require them to deal with stress on a daily basis, with hands that couldn't stop shaking just before a stage starts because the thought of having to shoot in front of everyone, and have everyone know exactly how well or how poorly they can shoot, absolutely terrified them.

I don't mind shooting in front of people anymore. I shoot in front of strangers on a nearly daily basis. But when you've invested $400 into a match, taken time off work, spent two days away from your family and have people who've invested money into your shooting expecting you to do well, there's a whole different kind of stress that comes up. There is no practice, there are no do-overs. You step up to the box and you can either perform on demand or not.

And the value of that stress, being required to perform cold and on demand with the whole world knowing if you sucked or not, cannot be over-emphasized.

In my opinion, the people who compete with the attitude that "it's just training" and DON'T try to win are doing themselves a tremendous disservice. I can "train" all by myself and work on specific weaknesses. DEALING WITH STRESS is the most beneficial part of competing. And when you deny yourself that stress in the name of "training", what you've done is denied yourself the most useful training you could get out of the entire day.

Yes, I experienced that first hand. I competed Kenpo style for several years, and then when I started sparring against Judoka's, I found myself arse-over-tea-kettle eventually, then pinned. I sucked at ground fighting, so I took some Aikido and wrestling...I still suck at ground fighting:)

Now there's some truth! There are a lot of lessons in force on force training, but I don't recall having the stress level that I did at a competition where I wanted the win.

It's just a very different dynamic.