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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux


In my opinion, the people who compete with the attitude that "it's just training" and DON'T try to win are doing themselves a tremendous disservice.



I remember a famous guy once was quoted as saying, "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing".

Vince Lombardi, as I recall...............

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Reminds me of the guy who rode the motorcycle to Mill Creek.


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is correct in that a lot of the younger guys have forgot that SOF got a lot of training from the IPSC guys in how to shoot. I had a Team Sergeant that had been to training put on by Barnhart and also another big IPSC name that I have forgotten (It may have been Shaw), but he had started his SF career in the early 90's. At the time I retired Kyle Lamb was pretty much the only name being mentioned.

I've also seen the "that stuff will get you killed" mentality while I was in the Army and I've also seen guys who had been downrange and kicked in a ton of doors in the real world, (Iraq) fall completely apart under match stress like Bluedreaux mentioned.

My first pistol match ever I was shaking like a leaf and it was just a bullseye match. I don't remember my final placement but it was bad. It never seemed to hit me as hard when it was a rifle match or maybe I had learned to deal with it better by the time I started shooting rifle matches.

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I'm gonna guess that if Frank Proctor says competition translates to real life scenarios, he probably knows what he's talking about.

Originally Posted by Frank Proctor.....A legit ninja
In May 2007 I was the Primary Instructor for Combat Marksmanship for an entire Special Forces Group and trained with dudes from other SF groups and other DOD agencies. I shot my first pistol match in May 2007 and I found out there was a whole lot I didn’t know about shooting. It was very humbling to see what those competitive shooters could do with a pistol. I was not as good as they were and I wanted to be better than I was. I’m still not as good as I want to be. I worked on it and trained and competed as often as I could. I learned a lot from shooting with those guys and competing and being under that kind of stress. I did and still do take away may lessons that make me a better shooter and made me a better Green Beret. Outside of more efficient techniques, gear and manipulations( the stuff that most shooters incorrectly focus on) a HUGE take away is seeing faster and more aggressively. What you see and process and how fast and aggressive you can do it make the biggest difference. An easy translation of me was doing CQB after competing. I am much more aggressive with my vision as a result of competing and it pays huge dividends being able to receive visual information and process it faster. I encourage every person that carries a gun of a living or for self defense to go out an compete, find out if you are a stood at shooting under stress as you want to be. If you are as good as you want to be then quit competing. I wasn’t and am still not as good as I want to be. Also worth mentioning, I find it very easy to separate tactics and shooting.


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your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
I'm gonna guess that if Frank Proctor says competition translates to real life scenarios, he probably knows what he's talking about.

Originally Posted by Frank Proctor.....A legit ninja
In May 2007 I was the Primary Instructor for Combat Marksmanship for an entire Special Forces Group and trained with dudes from other SF groups and other DOD agencies. I shot my first pistol match in May 2007 and I found out there was a whole lot I didn’t know about shooting. It was very humbling to see what those competitive shooters could do with a pistol. I was not as good as they were and I wanted to be better than I was. I’m still not as good as I want to be. I worked on it and trained and competed as often as I could. I learned a lot from shooting with those guys and competing and being under that kind of stress. I did and still do take away may lessons that make me a better shooter and made me a better Green Beret. Outside of more efficient techniques, gear and manipulations( the stuff that most shooters incorrectly focus on) a HUGE take away is seeing faster and more aggressively. What you see and process and how fast and aggressive you can do it make the biggest difference. An easy translation of me was doing CQB after competing. I am much more aggressive with my vision as a result of competing and it pays huge dividends being able to receive visual information and process it faster. I encourage every person that carries a gun of a living or for self defense to go out an compete, find out if you are a stood at shooting under stress as you want to be. If you are as good as you want to be then quit competing. I wasn’t and am still not as good as I want to be. Also worth mentioning, I find it very easy to separate tactics and shooting.


That takes me back the "seeing faster" part. I can recall when I started to "see fast". The milisecond the trigger breaks, your eyes are already lining up the next target, and you see the next target before the first bullet hits. And if you were shooting steel and waiting to hear the "clang", then you were going to be WAY behind.

I didn't realize that stuff until I read Enos "Practical Shooting Beyond the Fundamentals", where he talks about the buzzer beeping, and you just being an observer from that point on...cool stuff when you're rolling at that level. Even the slide seems to cycle slow.

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Believe me I completely agree, but unfortunately even in SOF the attitude of "I'm a Ranger/SEAL/Green Beret/Etc. what am I going to learn from some civilian" is way to common.

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That takes me back the "seeing faster" part. I can recall when I started to "see fast". The milisecond the trigger breaks, your eyes are already lining up the next target, and you see the next target before the first bullet hits. And if you were shooting steel and waiting to hear the "clang", then you were going to be WAY behind.



I've had this happen on occasion, but never quite got to the point where it was an all the time thing. When it does happen the timer usually reflects a really good time though.

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Originally Posted by toltecgriz
Reminds me of the guy who rode the motorcycle to Mill Creek.

….that could be a couple of different guys…….who are you?


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"In my opinion, the people who compete with the attitude that "it's just training" and DON'T try to win are doing themselves a tremendous disservice. I can "train" all by myself and work on specific weaknesses. DEALING WITH STRESS is the most beneficial part of competing. And when you deny yourself that stress in the name of "training", what you've done is denied yourself the most useful training you could get out of the entire day."

Perhaps you misunderstood. I used the competitions for training. It's not that I didn't try to win, and in fact, ended up winning quite a few, but winning wasn't why I was there, testing myself was why I was there. Improving myself was why I was there. My choice of weapon was based on what I was forced to carry on duty. Most of the ranges I could shoot at, didn't allow for rapid fire, drawing and firing, movement between targets etc. If one wanted to train for that...one needed to shoot competition. That was the only game in town. It was a good way to push one's personal envelope, and not have a bunch of disapproving slow fire target shooters chase you off their range.






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I had no idea you had even posted on this thread. But since you brought it up I have a question....

You weren't there to win, but to test yourself....And what measure did you use to determine how well you did in the "test"?


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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I feel a sarcasm attack coming on.

Dam it now I feel compelled to get some khakis, and Oakleys, and a drop leg holster.

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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
I had no idea you had even posted on this thread. But since you brought it up I have a question....

You weren't there to win, but to test yourself....And what measure did you use to determine how well you did in the "test"?


Forgive me for assuming you were directing that at me, since I was the only one to use the term "race" in my post, and you mentioned something about "blathering on about race guns."

So, in answer to your question, self improvement.

I wasn't a neophyte when I began to enter competitions. But when I could place 2nd or 3rd using a stock weapon shooting in essence 230 grain full house ball, against guys with $1800 race guns (1984 prices) shooting 180 H&G semi-wadcutters with light springs that recoiled like .22lr Rugers, I was happy. And, when I edged them out occasionally, I was equally happy. But my main focus was myself. Like I said, range time where one could engage in multiple targets, rapid fire, drawing hot weapons and moving between targets were not available anywhere but during competitions. The only alternative was standing in one place and shooting leisurely at targets.

One club I belonged to had Sunday shoots where we might have moving targets at 90 degrees, moving targets charging you at an oblique angle and in one case, we actually shot from moving vehicles at both stationary and moving targets. But during the week, none of that stuff was allowed and if you popped off anything rapid fire, the powers that be would scold you and threaten your membership.

Now, my organization was a little more progressive. We trained quarterly, and some of that training involved sim-grenades, sim-munitions that stung a bit, and having instructors standing behind you firing 12ga shotguns into the dirt to your left or right with the impacts about 3 feet from your shoes while you are trying to concentrate on your sights.

We trained with a lot of different federal and foreign agencies and that was valuable stuff. But on our own time, it was difficult to ratchet it up. So competition shoots were the only game around.

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Originally Posted by viking
I feel a sarcasm attack coming on.

Dam it now I feel compelled to get some khakis, and Oakleys, and a drop leg holster.


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Originally Posted by SBTCO
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Originally Posted by toltecgriz
Reminds me of the guy who rode the motorcycle to Mill Creek.


If it's the same guy I'm thinking of, he blew up a Mini 14 at an early iteration of a 3 gun match.


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Yeah blue thats what i am talking about, thanks.

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Interesting concept that a match creates more stress than live work on the street and I tend to agree. IMHE when something was going a little nutty on the street I was focused on to many things to be nervous, watching hands, backgrounds, threat indicators in the environment etc. It was after it was over that the nerves kicked in. I can totally admit that after an incident I was stripping my partner down to his undies looking for extra holes in him and as soon as I finished I had to sit down and then threw up. To this day I clearly recall using open sights with my AR preparing for bad guy headshot at 35-37 yards. I was leaning against a tree for cover, a classic barricade technique, and simply waiting for him to do something that shifted it from a "can" to a "must" regarding deadly force. He kept it up for almost 15 minutes of poking his head out back and forth and I never felt a twinge of nerves. After it was done and he was cuffed the adrenal dump was so bad I could not eat dinner and had to work out before going home so I would not drive my wife crazy.

Everyone is different and you might not know until the time arrives.


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Originally Posted by Savuti
Originally Posted by toltecgriz
Reminds me of the guy who rode the motorcycle to Mill Creek.


If it's the same guy I'm thinking of, he blew up a Mini 14 at an early iteration of a 3 gun match.

……I'm drawing a blank, Pete……remember a name or any details????


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Wearing camo fatigues, he would just appear at the start and disappear into the sunset as soon as he was done. Strange duck although that's not much of a clue considering. I don't know his name. Never did.


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Originally Posted by toltecgriz
Wearing camo fatigues, he would just appear at the start and disappear into the sunset as soon as he was done. Strange duck although that's not much of a clue considering. I don't know his name. Never did.

…..what's your name…..pm me if you want to .


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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
I'm gonna guess that if Frank Proctor says competition translates to real life scenarios, he probably knows what he's talking about.


It is not just Proctor.

Kyle Lamb, John Mcphee, Pat McNamara, Mike Pannone, Larry Vickers, to name a few fellows who feel competition is valuable for training.

It is actually pretty universal that real deal SMU dudes see the advantage IPSC, 3 Gun or IDPA type competitions bring to real world conflicts.


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