Home Forums Birds & Dogs Shotguns CSMC Model 21 O/U

This week I took a 2 hour drive to New Britain Connecticut to visit the Connecticut Shotgun Manufacturing Company factory and showroom. I was interested in their Model 21 O/U Standard Grade, which is styled after the Winchester 21 S/S and a Winchester M21 O/U, which was designed but never produced by Winchester. After entering their truly eye-popping showroom, with both new and vintage doubles ranging in price from a couple thousand to best guns well into six figures, I was handed a M21 O/U in 20 ga with 30" barrels and exhibition grade black walnut stock. It fit me perfectly, was well balanced and showed the level of workmanship that I was hoping for and expecting. My plans for this shotgun is for non-competition skeet shooting. This shotgun comes in a field presentation with an automatic safety, single bead, and 5 chokes. I asked if it could be converted to manual safety - no problem. I asked if a mid-bead could be added to the vent rib - no problem. I asked if I could purchase an extra skeet choke - it was included at no extra charge.

What a great experience I had! They could not have been more friendly or accommodating and the shotgun is beautiful and beautifully well made, right here in the US. It will be shipped to a local FFL next week. For anyone contemplating a fine double shotgun, I would highly recommend you consider a CSMC shotgun and that you visit one of their 2 showrooms. They also sell new shotguns from other manufactures including being a high volume Beretta dealer.

CSMC sells and makes some excellent shotguns. However unless you just have to have something different than anyone else, buy a Perazzi. Repeatedly tested and proven over many years by people who do their best to try and wear them out.

That Model 21 O/U is an unproven design. Unique no doubt, but proven? Nope.

You want a SxS, then a CSMC model 21 wouldn't be a bad choice since you are willing to spend that kind of money. O/U? Perazzi.

Rereading your post it looks like you already ordered one. Enjoy it and post some pics.

The Perazzi is a fine shotgun (as is the Blaser F3) but it isn't the only option and they don't shoot better than any other shotgun that fits the shooter well and is well balanced. The M21 O/U was designed to be a high volume gun but I don't plan on putting a ton of rounds thru it. I have no desire to compete anymore. I did that years ago, now I'm more interested in just having fun with the great group of retired guys that I shoot with. I'll probably shoot just 1-2 rounds of skeet with it every week. I did want something different.

I have a couple of Citori O/Us (a 1980s skeet gun and 1990s Ultra Sporter). Over the years I've broke a lot of birds with each back when I did compete and both have held up. The Ultra is my go-to clay gun. One of the guys I shoot with has a Perazzi MX8 that I have shot. It's a great shotgun that will handle tons of rounds, but frankly, I prefer the handling of my Citori Ultra. Hopefully I'll shoot this CSMC M21 as well.

I actually already purchased the one that I handled. I couldn't take it home because of Connecticut law, prohibiting sales to someone out-of-State. It has to be sent to an FFL in NY. They'll make the changes I requested to the gun and ship it out next week. They stated it would only take a 1/2 hour to make the alterations I wanted and as I left they were already taking it to the mfg floor to get that done. I should have it by mid-week. I'll post pics when it arrives.

The Blazer has the best trigger on any shotgun ever made. Has firing pins like a rifle instead of hammers. For some reason, pound for pound I found them to kick more than a lot of others.

Perazzi in 12 gauge are essentially a competition shotgun and take a little fiddling to get them just right. Especially for the down gun games. Although I did shoot a fellows field 12 that was better than nice. Only problem was it took short barrels to get there. Their sub-gauges can be as lively as anything made.

Beretta is also another work horse that that will run with anything.

Brownings are better than good, but will wear down a little quicker. Easy fix when it happens.

Again, enjoy the new one and post it up.

A couple guys I shoot with have the Blaser F3 and I shot one of them. I broke the targets that I shot at with it but I didn't love the balance. I didn't shoot it enough to get a feel of the recoil. The stock fit me pretty well but it was a little too muzzle heavy for my liking. It is a tank of a shotgun though and you can see it's high quality. One of the guys who has one of the Blasers had bought a Krieghoff K80. He didn't like the way the K80 handled at all. He traded it in for the Blaser F3 and a Citori 725 Sporting Clays. He shoots the Citori better and has transitioned to it as his main shotgun. Granted, they eventually will need to be tightened up or replaced after a lot of shooing, but at less than 1/2 the price of a Blaser, they can get the job done.

In our group of retired guys you'll see everything from various pumps, an old Winchester 1400, to vintage doubles, Perazzi and Blasers, with Browning1s, Berettas and Ceasar Guerinis, SKB etc holding the middle ground. Now we'll add my CSMC M21 O/U. That's how I define diversity.

ps. the M21 O/U design is not all that unique. It's has a lot in common with the CSMC Inverness round action design that is used in those $7-10K shotguns. Their Inverness O/U and their RBL S/S are round action guns that complement each other. This M21 is meant to complement their M21 S/S Winchester replicas. With CSMC's 40 year experience in making very high quality doubles, I don't expect mechanical issues with it, but if I do, I have confidence that they would make it right. I was very impressed by them, I could see and hear the pride they have in what they do and produce.

Dedicated competition shotguns are "tanks" for the obvious reasons of durability and cutting down on recoil. Have an acquaintance that shot sporting for years with a beautiful high grade Belgium Browning. It was light and quick. It also beat him up with the high volume shooting he was doing.

Their downsized small frame Model 21's are better than the originals when it comes to handling and every bit as well built. Maybe better.

+1 on the Perazzi. None of these is close, including the Blaser, IMO. I've been shooting these guns for 25 years, and they are built like trucks and move like Ferraris.

It may take some patience to get what you want, but if you know what it is and are willing to order and wait, then Perazzi will give you the barrel weight you want, multiple stock configurations and dimensions if you know them also. Although for a dedicated comp shotgun it is hard to go wrong with an adjustable comb.

Still looking forward to seeing the OP's new one; there will be very few around like it.

This thread wasn't started so as to become a discussion as to what one thinks to be the best clays shotgun. Most shotgunners would agree the Perazzi is a fine shotgun indeed. If I had wanted a Perazzi, I would be buying one. This CSMC M21 O/U tickled my fancy, so I bought it. I just thought I would share my thoughts on it, as there are not many out there currently in use, and suggest that IMO they are worthy of consideration, but your preference for Perazzi is so noted. I'm just not used to getting a consensus opinion when I purchase a new shotgun.

Cooper, don't get all worked up about the thread bouncing around. You should know that is how it works around here and it isn't going to change.

Second, there isn't one person out of at least 100 here-probably much more-that have a single clue re the shotgun you bought. They don't even know it exists, so the thread will more readily take some turns. I do because I'm more than a little interested in shotguns.

It should be a fine shotgun, but go with the flow and post up some pics when you get it.

Annnnnd……this place thrives on consensus opinion on just about every thread.

I'm not worked up, just trying to keep this thread from drifting into a discussion of what everyone thinks is the best clays shotgun. I posted just to provide some info for people like yourself who might be curious about this shotgun. There is not much info out there about it. I just thought I would pass along my impression of it.

Glad you are pleased with your gun. You mention that the CSMC Model 21 over/under is the gun Winchester designed but never produced. Not quite correct, as the CSMC gun isn't close mechanically to the Winchester design.

The CSMC gun more closely resembles it's own Inverness model, which looks remarkably similar to a number of modern O/U guns made in Italy today (such as the B. Rizzini).

A key part of the difference between the CSMC gun and the Winchester O/U design is the locking mechanism. The Winchester patent bolting mechanism locks very high on the barrel assembly, roughly abeam the center of the top barrel; the CSMC gun has the underbolt below the bottom barrel, akin to the guns I mention above. There are other significant differences as well.

Not to say that the CSMC Model 21 over/under isn't a good gun, as it certainly seems to be, it just is not the gun Winchester designed.

GF1, I didn't say the CSMC is the exact same M21 O/U that was designed by Winchester. Go back to my original post and you will read that I said it was styled after the Winchester M21 O/U that was never produced. I chose that word carefully. I also said the following in reply to Battue when he stated this was an unproven design.

"ps. the M21 O/U design is not all that unique. It has a lot in common with the CSMC Inverness round action design that is used in those $7-10K shotguns. Their Inverness O/U and their RBL S/S are round action guns that complement each other. This M21 is meant to complement their M21 S/S Winchester replicas. With CSMC's 40 year experience in making very high quality doubles, I don't expect mechanical issues with it, but if I do, I have confidence that they would make it right. I was very impressed by them, I could see and hear the pride they have in what they do and produce."

The folks at CSMC were very up front with me about this and I portrayed this shotgun accurately here. It is styled after the unproduced Winchester M21 O/U and is a compliment to the M21 S/S replica that they do produce. Mechanically, it is based on their more expensive Inverness model. I was told this by the CSMC salesman and I was under no mistaken impression as to what it was I was buying. I did my homework on this shotgun before buying and have described it accurately.

Cooper, I simply took your comment exactly as you stated:

"...Winchester M21 O/U, which was designed but never produced by Winchester." You also mentioned "styled", and I agree with you on that point - it does look like the prototype that Winchester built."

I don't mean to quibble, only to point out that the design is vastly different than the Winchester.

Very glad you had a fine experience. Enjoy the gun.

Oh, what the hell, let's quibble. It is a fact that the Winchester 21 O/U was designed and never produced (except for at least one known prototype). The CSMC is styled (I did not say copied)after that shotgun's design. I never stated or implied that this CSMS is the same design as the original Winchester, that is due to your apparent lack of comprehension. Quite clearly, I stated it was mechanically similar to the Inverness. Any confusion, is/was clearly on your part.

For the record, it will be hereforth so noted that: you prefer Perazzi and that you have pointed out what I clearly stated; the CSMS M21 is of a different (mechanical) design than the Winchester M21 O/U, which was never produced. I plan to enjoy this shotgun (as I do all my shotguns), when it arrives from the factory. Thanks.

ps, When it arrives, I will attempt to post a picture of it here.

Yeah, I guess I've always been kind of a dim bulb...thanks for the enlightenment. But I guess I'm just bright enough to stay away from a personal attack...

I'll post few pictures of my new CSMC M 21. Here's the first

[img:center][/img]

[img:center]http://[/img]

[img:center]

I'm very happy with it. Tomorrow I take it to the skeet field. I did the transfer thru a local Gander Mountain and when I went to pick it up the kid behind the counter comes out with it all put together and holding it very casually. I asked, "where's the box." He said oh, it just came in a plain box (they do that on purpose so no UPS guy knows what's in the box) with lots of bubble wrap." As he is holding it he looks at the stock and says, "Is this real wood." I said, "Yeah that's exhibition grade black walnut." He asked "What did ya pay for it?" When I told him his eyes bugged out a bit and I said. "I'd really appreciated it if you would please re-pack it in the box and to please be careful with it." When I got it home and unpacked it, it was thankfully in good shape. So, I will have the honor of putting the first ding in the stock.

ps The balance point is right at the hinge, barrels 30" and weight at 6 1/2 lbs.

Beautiful! Enjoy.

Kid should have taken one look at it and had the common sense not to be fooling around putting it together.

How many young people today have much sense at all, especially when it comes to guns? This guy knew next to nothing about guns. Thankfully he managed to put it together without buggering it up. Gander Mountain does employ "gunsmiths" so maybe there was someone back there that had a clue put it together.

Can't ever remember picking up a gun from an incoming store that was out of the box. They have always handed me the box to open it on my own. Any problems we both are aware of it right there and it was obvious they had nothing to do with it.

Yeah, but to make matters worse, when you pick up a gun you've ordered, until you've exchanged $ the gun belongs to the store. If they open it and drop and damage it, it's theirs. But in this case, the gun was mine, bought and paid for. The store had nothing to do with it other than to do the background check and transfer. Had they dropped it and damaged it, it would have been my property they were damaging and I would have been stuck with it. Who knows if they would have paid for any repairs or maybe I would have had to sue them. From my talk with CSMC I think they would have repaired any damage, but what a PITA that would be. I won't be using them for any future transfers.

I'm referring to guns they are only doing the transfer. Same as your situation. They mess it up in the back, they have the opportunity to put it back in shippers box, seal it up and no one knows the truth of it. Leave it in the box, open it in front of the person they are filling out the paperwork for and they have no problems.

I was just reading about these, I wish I could handle one. Like battue said the P gun is a more proven rig but these are bad to the bone and the lumber on the one you got is killer. Is that upgraded wood?

Yes it is. They had it graded as exhibition black walnut. I didn't order this but bought it off the rack at their showroom. It was the only one they had that had the 30" barrels. I would have liked the feathercrotch to go all the way back to the recoil pad, but it was nice enough and I didn't want to wait and place an order and hope the wood would be a little bit better. You should have seen some of the wood on the guns they had lying around over the place. For me, it was like it is for someone walking into the Playboy mansion. I was overwhelmed.

No doubt the Perazzi is a more proven high volume gun, but I have no plans to put a high volume of rounds thru it. A couple boxes a week will be about it. The Perazzi would be about 2X the cost of this. In their new catalog it states CSMC will be coming out with a dedicated clays gun with a stainless receiver and some nice features. They didn't indicate a price though.

Wish my 16 gauge Citori had 30's, that makes for such a nice all-arounder over 28's

C57,

That's a beauty. Thank goodness they didn't bang it up. Every transfer I can remember doing the FFL opened the boxes and logged the gun into their book, before even calling me. Most Dealers aren't accustomed to handling fine firearms. I had one throw the outer box from a Cooper into their burn barrel. I've always wanted to go down to CSMC. I've been to Robin Hollow a few times.

I would encourage you to visit their showroom. They love to chat and had one older guy who is a volunteer, who just loves to talk about fine guns. They had several rooms just filled with fine doubles (new and used), Jim Carmichael's gun collection, all beautifully furnished and appointed. If you are ordering a shotgun, they will take you to their wood room where you can pick out your own blanks. It's just a great experience.

You will love your M-21. I have an Inverness in my safe, and a buddy has a M-21 similar to yours. They feel nearly identicle when you shoulder them. I've shoulder P guns, and they are nice, but I much prefer the fit of the Inverness/M-21. My go to meat gun is a Beretta 686 White Onyx, and I can tell you that as much as I love my 686; it feels like a tank compared to the Inverness. The Inverness is styled after the RA Best quality guns built by McKay Brown such sell for about $50k+!

I've been shooting skeet with it and I've been enjoying it. No issues. It does handle very well. I haven't gone straight with it yet but did shoot a 24. It fits me well.

Went straight with it this week at skeet and followed it up with a 24 (missed 6 low) for a 49/50. We're getting to know each other pretty well.