Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Primer question for Mule Deer

John,

Don't know if you've been following the most recent thread on Winchester primers, but I've decided to switch to CCI and Feds rather than risk any damage to my rifles.

Some time ago I read that match and benchrest primers are the same as the regular ones, just "grouted" by the most skillful workers and theoretically, more consistent. My question is, do you think that the match and BR primers give better accuracy in "ordinary" hunting rifles, or are they a waste of money (or, in the case of 210Ms, a waste of time hunting them down)?

I realize that my question would be best answered by experimenting with my own rifles and loads, but local availability of primers remains spotty, and selection very limited, so online bulk purchase is the only practical option.

Thanks.

Would 1.5" to 1.6" ten shot groups at 200 yards be sufficient for your purposes?

If so, then the regular primers will do.

Disclaimer: I'm not JB and I don't play him on the internet.

I had a lot of WLR that had a couple pinhole leaks damaging a Rem 700 bolt face. I switched from the WLR to Fed 210's in a 270 Win last summer. Worked up loads again and found same/same velocity/accuracy in my rifle with the same powder charge.

Not exactly what you asking but may help you decide.

It would indeed.

John definitely is the go-to guy for this stuff, but advice from experienced and talented "amateurs" is always welcome, and expected when posting here.

Thanks.

You're welcome.

I'll also say said groups were shot with thrown charges of extruded powder, including long stick IMR 3031, and were aimed via 6x magnification.

The only "tricks" involved were a target well suited to the distance/reticle/magnification and straight cartridges.

I've been using Fed 210 and 210M in my .308 and '06 loads for a while, but generally used WLRs in my .270. Now that I'm down to about 100 white box WLRs, rather than chance the blue box ones, I'm bailing on the Winnies altogether. Not worth the risk.

Yeah, I am having the same Win failures so I am going to stop using the winnies and go 100% to the Fed 210 Match that I have on hand.

Hate to sell my winnies to someone, but......

I am really wondering if JB knows anything about Winchester Ammunition as far as any attempt on their part to solve their problem and how one can actually get in touch with a human being there that can really do something about replacements or damage.

Tim

I "throw" my charges into an e-scale with Lee dippers and trickle up or down with the same scoop. After a bit, I get pretty good at eyeballing a tenth or so. Had a free BR30, but never got the knack of throwing really consistent charges, so I sold it. I do use a Little Dandy for some handgun loads.

I've quit weighing so much and let the targets tell me if the load is consistent enough.

I also learned to quit weighing individual charges when setting up a powder measure. That leads to tail chasing. I'll throw and weigh ten charges together. Suppose that comes to 420 grains. Then I call the charge weight for that measure setting 42 grains and start dispensing charges.

I don't mind spending the time and understand that the results probably don't exceed those of thrown charges.

Everybody needs an outlet for their OCD side, and this lets me keep mine in the basement, and out of trouble with the War Department. Frees up a little bench space as well.

While I have some concerns about the Winchester primers and have heard quite a bit about failures, I have been using them (though not exclusively) for the last twenty years and will likely go ahead and use up what's left.
I have often seen a difference on the target between match primers and standard primers but not always has the advantage gone to the match primers. I had one bunch of Federal Small Rifle Match primers which would not shoot as well as any standard primer, from any manufacturer, including Federal, in the 6BR I was trying them in. I tried a couple of boxes then sold the rest. GD

Pappy,

As noted in the chapter on primers in THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK, I do know the only difference between CCI "BR" and Federal "M" primers and the standard stuff is more consistency, partly (but not totally) due to the people trained to spread the compound more consistently. This probably won't make any noticeable difference in the accuracy of most rifles, and may not even in super-accurate rifles. But the BR's and M's are there for people who want everything in their handloads to be as consistent as possible. (I don't know how Remington makes 7-1/2 small rifle "Bench Rest" primers.)

I've gone through the same choices everybody else has during this high-demand, low-supply period, and a couple of years ago decided to switch to primers I could find and buy. I'd been using CCI 200's and various CCI small-rifle primers for many years with fine results, but had generally used Federal 215's for magnum primers. Tried CCI 250's in the same loads I used 215's (or 215M's) in and accuracy was a good or sometimes better.

Still have a smaller supply of other brands of LR primers, just because I need to include them in testing for articles, but stocked up heavily on 200's and 250's.

After considerable experimenting with small-rifle primers, settled on Tula KVG223's as my "mild" rifle primer, and CCI 450's as my magnum. (The 250 also works fine in AR-15's, due to the thick cup.)

Most of this was done with on-line orders during sales, when buying in bulk made them a very good deal despite the hazmat fee. Once in a while I find CCI's for a decent price in stores, but on-line is my main supply source these days.

greydog,

I've seen the same thing with "match"/standard primers more than occasionally.

Also, Federal 205M's are a relatively mild primer. They work well with the small-granule extruded powders favored by short-range benchrest shooters, but with spherical powders (and some extruded powders) they don't work so well. In fact, in an extensive test I did in the .22 Hornet, 205M's produced the worst results with Li'l Gun, while CCI 450's worked best.

My OCD side is involved in the runout issue.

I guess I'll wait for a good opportunity to stock up, local or online, and add some 200s or BRs to the stash. My regular LGS has held the line on prices, but was limiting purchases to 500 for a while. Others shops have gone the gouger route, up to $6.95 per C. No thanks.

Thanks John, and the rest too.

LGS has CCI BR, for less than Midway and no shipping or hazmat.

Whoo hoo!

I'm not at all JB...

But I've a couple of years shooting competition, at some fair distances, and with some fair guns and fair results.

What I can say is while I try to research and find which primer might be most common with which powder, I keep every brand on hand that I can find...

I have found, that primer choice in a given load can do anything from cut group size in half to double or triple group size to almost no change at all.

Obviously you might skirt this by continually searching a load though... I mean if you are having issues with X grains and Y primer, Y primer can usually work if you keep playing with all the other variables.

In the end having primers is obviously better than having none. Its why I try to keep on hand a couple of cases of the top choices.

Some things are no brainer combos.. like Varget in a 223, you need look no furhter than CCI BR4. But you can get others to work almost as good.

Granted I"m usually pretty picky about accuracy. Even with factory guns.

I don't need "cases", but like to keep ahead of any potential supply issues like we've been through of late. Fortunately, the panic situation seems to have ended here, so that I'm able to buy by the brick instead of two to five boxes at a time. The selection remains limited, however. My LGS only has BR2s and WLRs at present. CCIs seem to be among the brands regularly available, so appears to be a good choice to standardize on, with F210s in "reserve".

I should have clarified, I keep a couple of cases of ones I know I use normally, and then try to keep at least 500 or 1000 of most every kind I can buy... for load work ups.

The only issue then, if I find something is MUCH better with a primer I don't have a case of... I have to start searching. LOL.

Jeff,

Yeah, that's basically what I do as well.

Have lucked out on finding some of the scarcer primers (such as Federal 215M's) at estate sales in the past year or two.

Have also been pleasantly surprised when testing some foreign primers, which as somebody already mentioned are often cheaper and more available than American-made primers these days.