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This is the famous 45-330 gr Gould Express bullet designed by John Barlow, founder of Ideal. Made for Mr. Gould, editor of Shooting & Fishing. Great reputation as a killer of large game with superior performance in all 45 cal cartridges.

Just received this Lyman #457122 HP mold for a go in my '86 Win 45/90 so I'll be casting soon. Just wondered if any of you have given it a go in the past?

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A little history to liven up this forum..

Expansion Properties of Cast Hollow Points

By: Glen E. Fryxell

If a little is good, more is not necessarily better. The Golden Age of Cast Hollow Points was arguably in the 1890s, when they were embraced by the hunting community and established themselves as killers of the first order. The world of ballistics was a rapidly changing pace at that time, and jacketed bullets and ever-higher velocities eventually took over. The end result was that while the attributes of the cast HP were appreciated by a few seasoned hunter-casters, most of the hunting community moved on to whatever the latest whiz-bang that was being promoted by the manufacturers. While that's perfectly understandable, it is also a pity because cast HP’s can be some of the best hunting bullets out there, and they offer the additional advantages of being very affordable and easily made. What's more, once you have the mould you never need to worry about a manufacturer dropping (or changing) your favorite bullet design, and they offer the satisfaction of making your own premium hunting bullets, to your own specifications, with your own two hands. To gain these advantages, one simply needs to understand the cast HP. Let's go back to when it all got started and see what these bullets have to offer...

In the 4th Edition of the Ideal Handbook (published in 1890) there was a short section dedicated to "Express bullets" highlighting the .45 caliber 330 grain Gould bullet (which would later be known as the Ideal 456122 when they started assigning cherry numbers in 1897). This bullet was designed by John Barlow (founder of Ideal) for A. C. Gould (editor of Shooting and Fishing magazine), an avid bullet caster and hunter (also shown was a picture of the .50 Express bullet, although no details were given). The Express Moulds cost $2.50, and came with polished cocobolo handles (all single cavity Ideal moulds had integral handles at this point). The excellent killing properties of the Gould bullet were spelled out in vivid detail. Thus was the beginning of the Golden Age....

By 1897 the following HP moulds were cataloged by Ideal in the 9th Edition of their Handbook (I have included some of the original ad copy to give some insight as to how Ideal thought of each of these bullets):

22638 -- a 60 grain PB-HP for the .22-15-60 Stevens rifle, "It is astonishing how much more deadly this bullet is with a hollow point." (other weights also available)

25727 - a nominal 75 grain (other weights also available) HP for the .25-20 and .25-35 Winchester

31133 -- a 100 grain HP for the .32-20 Winchester, "They increase the killing powers of .32-20 rifles greatly."

31945 -- a 150 grain HP for the .32-40, "They increase the killing power of the rifle greatly for deer, bear, etc."

31953 -- designed by Col. Pickett ("the well-known grizzly bear killer"), a 205 grain paper-patched HP for the .32-40

37577 -- a 235 grain HP for the .38-55, "The .38-55 rifle with express bullets are sure killers of deer and elk."

40090 -- a 165 grain HP for the .38-40 Winchester, "Those who have .38-40 rifles can increase their killing power by 50% by using express bullets."

40393 -- about 330 grain HP for the .40-65, .40-70 and .40-82 Winchesters, "Every person owning one of these rifles should have an express mould as they greatly increase the killing power for larger game."

42499 -- 195 grain HP for the .44-40 "Hunters will find that the killing qualities of their .44-40 rifles are increased 50% by use of this bullet."

446110 -- a 315 grain HP for the .44-77, .44-90 or .44-100 Sharp's cartridges

45115 -- a 325 grain paper-patched HP designed by Col. Pickett

45117 -- a 335 grain HP designed for the .45-70 (this bullet sounds seriously undersized for use in a .45-70 to me...)

456122 -- the Gould bullet, designed by John Barlow for A. C. Gould, the editor of Shooting and Fishing; a 330 grain HP for the .45-70, "It has a great reputation as a killer of large game."

512139 -- a 300 grain HP with a gaping cavity "This is the standard .50 Winchester Express bullet."

Note that John Barlow designed these bullets for rifle cartridges, specifically black powder rifle cartridges, and therein lies the secret to the soul of the cast HP. Generally speaking, these cartridges were loaded with BP to muzzle velocities of 1100-1600 fps (most commonly in the range of 1200-1400 fps), and this is why the cast HP’s worked so well and were so well received by the hunters of the day (men like Col. Pickett and A. C. Gould) -- the guns that they were initially developed for did not over-stress them. Thus, the cast HP delivered excellent expansion and deadly performance on deer, black bear and elk.


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Col. Pickett used that bullet in his 45/110 for grizz. he said it made grizz hunting a one shot kill affair. The 330 grain express slug and 110 gr. of C&H powder.


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I have not Woody, I'm a heavy bullet retard destined to ride the short bus forever.


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Originally Posted by gunner500
I have not Woody, I'm a heavy bullet retard destined to ride the short bus forever.


I've been in the heavies camp as well Jerry but the nostalgia bug bit after reading how infatuated "The Old Dead Guys" were with this newfangled offering which killed critters with less bullet weight,higher velocities and lighter recoil. I would expect the Gould to be a decent killer of thin skinned varieties out to a few hundred yards + via the lever gun and possibly a tad more from the Sharps if it stabilizes.

You know me well enuf by now I'm not afraid to shell out a few bucks for a new bullet to test,just keeps the old nose on the grindstone and fewer cobwebs out of the belfry ! grin


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I hear you Woody, it will be a fun bullet in that '86 45-90 for sure.

On second thought, of all the educationally interesting stories our buddy Sharpsguy has told me, I believe I remember him saying that 330 gr Gould HP was a rough sombeach on deer sized game, iirc he said it tears the hell out of 'em. grin


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Originally Posted by gunner500
I hear you Woody, it will be a fun bullet in that '86 45-90 for sure.

On second thought, of all the educationally interesting stories our buddy Sharpsguy has told me, I believe I remember him saying that 330 gr Gould HP was a rough sombeach on deer sized game, iirc he said it tears the hell out of 'em. grin


I'll be casting soft at 30:1 to prevent the HP nose from mimicking a Booger VLD however.. grin


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Good, boog-frag is a very bad thing. shocked grin


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Originally Posted by EvilTwin
Col. Pickett used that bullet in his 45/110 for grizz. he said it made grizz hunting a one shot kill affair. The 330 grain express slug and 110 gr. of C&H powder.


Don't know if I'd have the ballz using a HP on grizz... probably feel more in my comfort zone with good penetration like the Gov't or a big 530gr slick from the Sharps, of course the full mag and fast cycling of the lever gun might be the ultimate game changer.


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I believe the old boys used an 18:1 or 20:1 alloy for their "ring balls" aka gg bullets. Pickett said he killed more than 20 grizz with his.


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That bullet was designed to take a 22 short cartridge in the nose cavity to initiate expansion on impact.


the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to.
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I've read and researched this bullet extensively and know it was tried but seriously doubt the design concept was conceived to be an exploding bullet.


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Woody,

A friend has this mould and when I first started shooting 45-70s, borrowed it from him and cast several hundred of these bullets. I did not, and have not, invested nearly as much time as you have checking out the bona fides of this bullet. I cast them primarily for hunting use, but have never used them for that purpose (I found, and really like the 457193 and have stuck with it). I'm sure I still have some 457122s in my "bullet cache".

Anyhow . . . I did shoot the bullet at steel targets and it shot well for me out to 200 yards - out to 400 yards, it was a hit and miss proposition (more than likely it was the shooter, not the bullet) - beyond 400 yards, it was difficult to zero in on even the largest steel target. I have no doubt it would be a very good, devastating bullet for any NA animal within the proficient ranges of the shooter. Maybe it is time to revisit the load in my lever gun.

Shoot well, my friend, and let us know what your evaluation is.

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Nick, The 193 and 643 have been and will be my primary go to's in the 45/90 lever gun.The 121 PH at 30:1 is a heavy at 482.5 grs and will shoot but its accuracy seems compromised a tad by its length vs twist IMO.

As we all know these big lever guns were't made to shoot over the horizon like our Sharps thus the reason for lighter express bullets.

This is more of an experiment of sorts with some nostalgia thrown in the mix and nothing more although there may be a venison out there which could possibly become a test subject. grin


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Does anyone know a source for purchasing these bullets lubed and relatively soft? Have a Trapdoor and muley does that need thinning. Small acreage muley does, want to be relatively quiet and minimal follow up, love the old guns thinking a 45 soft HP just behind shoulders will do the job.
I reload but dont cast my own.

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Originally Posted by 65Jeffrey
Does anyone know a source for purchasing these bullets lubed and relatively soft?


Not to my knowledge maybe one of the other guys have a source..Depending on how many you want I might be able to fix you up later when I get started..they would be sized and lubed of course..

Shoot me a PM with phone number be glad to talk to you if you like.


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There was a fine fella name of Mon Yee in Dodge City, making REALLY good BPCR bullets,...but more importantly PACKING them properly to ship.

Dunno' if he's still in the game.

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Any reading in particular you would suggest? Like you a heavy bullet man but an old Trapdoor and some little does for culling got me interested in a gentler loading.

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Originally Posted by 65Jeffrey
Any reading in particular you would suggest? Like you a heavy bullet man but an old Trapdoor and some little does for culling got me interested in a gentler loading.


There are several really good articles but actually the best and most informative I'd recommend can be found in the 2012 66th edition of Gun Digest under the title of "The express bullet in America" by Jim Foral found on pages 75-81... Google 45 cal Gould bullet then click on Gun Digest 66th edition 2012 and the pages will come up in pdf format. Long read but lots of interesting history.





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Thats good to know, somewhere in boxes around here i have most of the Guns Digests, ill have to dig it out

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These bullets would be interesting too, in the High Wall .45-90...which weighs about 7 1/2 lbs smile

I tried some of the MPS bullets but the silly things were sized about .455, and shot patterns.


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