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Originally Posted by Paddler
Originally Posted by Raeford
Paddler
If ever there was a excusable reason for abortion
You would be it.


What do you mean by that? I'm a well-educated, thoughtful, productive, tax paying member of society. Responsible gun owner, ethical hunter, too. And, I obey the laws of the land and mind my own business. You should follow my lead.


And so long as those guns fit in to your narrow view of what is acceptable, everything is good, right?


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Originally Posted by Paddler

Nope, not ashamed. Just amused at your impotence. You sound very unhappy. Overdeveloped sense of self-righteousness, discussed above.

Why do you visit this forum and act like an ass, only stirring up trouble? You don't do that on the [b][color:#3333FF]UtahWildlife forum[/color][/b].

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It's amusing that the people that can't stand any govt. on their guns, want more govt. on a woman's body. You might want to keep that pro life, anti choice horseshit to yourselves, unless you want to be dismissed as a self serving hypocrite.


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Originally Posted by TheOldTree
It's amusing that the people that can't stand any govt. on their guns, want more govt. on a woman's body. You might want to keep that pro life, anti choice horseshit to yourselves, unless you want to be dismissed as a self serving hypocrite.



Explicitly quote the section of the U.S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights that guarantees or protects the right to gender discriminatory infanticide for convenience.

As for a guarantee of rights on firearms, the Second Amendment is quite explicitly enumerated in the Bill of Rights and is evident for all to read (even if you can't grasp the meaning of it).


Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Where, exactly, in the 14th Amendment is a gender discriminatory right to infanticide for convenience spelled out?

Here's the text of the 14th Amendment; please show EXACTLY where that right is enumerated.

Originally Posted by Fourteenth Amendment

Amendment XIV

Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2.

Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a state, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such state.

Section 3.

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4.

The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5.

The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.



Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973), is a landmark decision by the United States Supreme Court on the issue of abortion. It was decided simultaneously with a companion case, Doe v. Bolton. The Court ruled 7–2 that a right to privacy under the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment extended to a woman's decision to have an abortion, but that this right must be balanced against the state's two legitimate interests in regulating abortions: protecting women's health and protecting the potentiality of human life.[1] Arguing that these state interests became stronger over the course of a pregnancy, the Court resolved this balancing test by tying state regulation of abortion to the third trimester of pregnancy.


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Lauren, you are undergoing epic failure here.

The issue being, why is this a women's rights issue when it takes a woman and a man to conceive?

Why isn't the man allowed to participate, or waive his rights, to the issue of terminating a "fetus"?

And if it is not the man's issue because the woman is carrying a baby, why is the man subject to servitude in the way of support if she chooses to have the baby?

Don't argue the subjectivity about fatherhood and such. Answer those questions. Since you ignored the last batch I gave you.

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Originally Posted by TheOldTree
. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973), is a landmark decision by the United States Supreme Court on the issue of abortion. It was decided simultaneously with a companion case, Doe v. Bolton. The Court ruled 7–2 that a right to privacy under the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment extended to a woman's decision to have an abortion, but that this right must be balanced against the state's two legitimate interests in regulating abortions: protecting women's health and protecting the potentiality of human life.[1] Arguing that these state interests became stronger over the course of a pregnancy, the Court resolved this balancing test by tying state regulation of abortion to the third trimester of pregnancy.



Again, please quote the EXPLICIT section of the 14th Amendment that guarantees a gender discriminatory right to infanticide for mere convenience. Where, exactly, in the text of the 14th Amendment is it?

Oh, and once you get passed that part, reconcile Roe v. Wade with Reed v. Reed that explicitly forbids disparate treatment of genders under the 14th Amendment (hint: it can't be done).

You're in WAY over your head, as usual, and have no f'kin' clue what you're talking about (again, as usual).


Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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"Potentiality of human life" is when people are about to screw.

After, is like inviting someone into your house and murdering them when you get tired of the visit.

Everyone has a very real interest in protecting innocent humans.


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Originally Posted by 4ager
Where, exactly, in the 14th Amendment is a gender discriminatory right to infanticide for convenience spelled out?

Here's the text of the 14th Amendment; please show EXACTLY where that right is enumerated.


Isn't that is kind of like arguing "where in the second amendment is it spelled out that concealed carry is allowed for convenience?"

Kind of a weak argument. laugh



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Originally Posted by NeBassman

Kind of a weak argument. laugh



You're more than welcome to start on these as well:
Quote
why is this a women's rights issue when it takes a woman and a man to conceive?

Why isn't the man allowed to participate, or waive his rights, to the issue of terminating a "fetus"?

why is the man subject to servitude in the way of support if the woman chooses to have the baby?


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Originally Posted by NeBassman
Originally Posted by 4ager
Where, exactly, in the 14th Amendment is a gender discriminatory right to infanticide for convenience spelled out?

Here's the text of the 14th Amendment; please show EXACTLY where that right is enumerated.


Isn't that is kind of like arguing "where in the second amendment is it spelled out that concealed carry is allowed for convenience?"

Kind of a weak argument. laugh



Oh? Okay, let's play:

The 14th is quoted. Please indicate in the exact text of the 14th where it references: women, pregnancies, or abortion (to start).

Here's the text of the Second Amendment:

Originally Posted by Second Amendment
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Now, in that text there are the words: "people", "right" "keep", "bear", "arms", and the phrase "shall not be infringed".

If we're keeping score on actual verbatim, explicitly defined rights within the Amendments in question then you are WAY, WAY behind. Feel free to cite the EXACT and EXPLICIT language in the 14th that guarantees a right to a gender discriminatory infanticide for mere convenience.


Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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It's her body, her choice, it seems to work out fine. Every woman I know is pro choice. Just the way it is. If any of you could conceive of a reversal of roles here where the govt. was telling you, you need to have this child..the tune would be different.

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Originally Posted by RWE
Originally Posted by NeBassman

Kind of a weak argument. laugh



You're more than welcome to start on these as well:
Quote
why is this a women's rights issue when it takes a woman and a man to conceive?

Why isn't the man allowed to participate, or waive his rights, to the issue of terminating a "fetus"?

why is the man subject to servitude in the way of support if the woman chooses to have the baby?



While the "legal scholars" that have shown up on this thread to defend infanticide get through with those, please have them align their positions with Reed v. Reed and the various state and federal laws that prohibit discrimination based upon sex or gender.


Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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You guys still prattling on about settled law? Why don't you talk about ACA for awhile? Or Social Security, or Medicare? You'll get just as far.

Angry old white guys trying to tell women what they can and cannot do. You're why Republicans cannot win national office. If you cannot gerrymander or restrict voting rights in a discriminatory fashion, you're toast. Given the changing demographics in the US today, your days are numbered. It's well known the conservatives are much more fearful than liberals, and it's clear you have good reasons to be fearful of your future. You simply face marginalization and disenfranchisement. Really must suck to be you. OTOH, we liberals are a cheerful bunch. Have a nice day!

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Originally Posted by TheOldTree
It's her body, her choice, it seems to work out fine. Every woman I know is pro choice. Just the way it is. If any of you could conceive of a reversal of roles here where the govt. was telling you, you need to have this child..the tune would be different.


Sure, it's her choice to screw. It's her choice to use any one of a myriad of contraceptives. The female can choose to act responsibly in any of those areas, and that is certainly her choice at that point. An irresponsible action, or in fact a series of irresponsible actions and failures to act, does not justify murder.

The baby, a distinct and individual human PERSON (key word there), is not a choice; it is a person that is being killed for mere convenience.

Every woman you know is pro-choice. Well, whoop-te-doo. Every convict in prison is innocent, too, if you ask them. Every drunk isn't really an alcoholic. Just because the majority of one segment of the population thinks something is "right" or ought to be a certain way (illegal Mexicans all think they have a right to be here, for example; the majority of Muslims believe the US should be under Sharia Law), does not make it ethical, moral, philosophical, and certainly should not make it legal (there's that damned, pesky Constitution again).

You've failed, miserably, to support your position at every turn and you continue to flail around trying to justify the indefensible with soundbite rationale (at best). It was probably a good call on your part to avoid the legal discussion; you hadn't a chance there. Of course, you haven't a chance in any other realm of this discussion, either.


Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Originally Posted by Paddler
You guys still prattling on about settled law? Why don't you talk about ACA for awhile? Or Social Security, or Medicare? You'll get just as far.

Angry old white guys trying to tell women what they can and cannot do. You're why Republicans cannot win national office. If you cannot gerrymander or restrict voting rights in a discriminatory fashion, you're toast. Given the changing demographics in the US today, your days are numbered. It's well known the conservatives are much more fearful than liberals, and it's clear you have good reasons to be fearful of your future. You simply face marginalization and disenfranchisement. Really must suck to be you. OTOH, we liberals are a cheerful bunch. Have a nice day!


Says the socially and politically emasculated pervert doc hiding in one of the staunchest Republican states in the nation. The irony there is astonishing.

If that buffoon really wants to get into gerrymandering, the Ds are masters of it and the evidence is overwhelming. Then again, it'd be yet another area of life in which he's simply clueless and is only here to troll (since he has no social life and no acceptance at all in UT).

Careful not to molest yet another patient, Doc. Eventually, that will catch up to you.


Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Originally Posted by Paddler
You guys still prattling on about settled law?



we liberals are a cheerful bunch




Why should it matter to you?

you said I can make whatever I want my business and post what I want in a forum.

Unless you are a [bleep] liar and are yourself, a hypocrite to the nth degree, like all cheerful liberals.

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I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I am telling you, we are not going backwards. It ain't going to happen.

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