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Help me out here. In every description of the various versions of ladder and OCW load development methods I have seen, conventional wisdom says to ignore any horizontal distribution and attribute it to wind. We all know barrels oscillate upon firing but what law of physics makes them only oscillate in the vertical axis? Why don't they oscillate in the horizontal axis too? Or in a combination of vertical and horizontal axis? And, if that is the case, why are we ignoring the horizontal dispersion in ladder and OCW type load development?

Thanks,

John


If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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That's a good question. It would be hard to ignore much horizontal on a calm day. I've heard the same...let's see if anybody has anything on this.

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Been saying this for years personally...

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Originally Posted by TXRam
Been saying this for years personally...


Since you are glued to the hunnert' yard line, you can ignore both smile


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Ok, mr sniper...

And it's 50, not 100...

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When you are shooting a long range 600 yard Audette, there are slight changes in wind between shots that may cause some horizontal. You pick the loads in the node based on vertical

Then generally all of the loads in the node are tested to determine which one shoots best. If there is horizontal at 100, there's something wrong


Originally Posted by Bristoe
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Originally Posted by rcamuglia
When you are shooting a long range 600 yard Audette, there are slight changes in wind between shots that may cause some horizontal.


Agreed, but is horizontal never caused by barrel harmonics?

Originally Posted by rcamuglia
You pick the loads in the node based on vertical


Why only vertical?

John


If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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Originally Posted by Hondo64d


Why only vertical?

John


Because inconsistencies in ignition and wide velocity spreads will result in vertical dispersion at real distance.

that's what's been explained to me. I'm sure Rick will correct me if mistaken. I'm not a match shooter. smile




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Originally Posted by Hondo64d


Why only vertical?

John


Because inconsistencies in ignition and wide velocity spreads will result in vertical dispersion at real distance.

that's what's been explained to me. I'm sure Rick will correct me if mistaken. I'm not a match shooter. smile


We can also determine that with a chronograph.

My point being that if it's calm (min or no wind), any large spread in horizontal should not be ignored. If it can reasonably be explained by wind, no problem.

I've seen folks just use the vertical with no regard for 4" spread at 300yds on a calm day - I don't buy ignoring that.


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I also don't recall the OCW method ignoring horizontal. It's more about how insensitive group size and group center are to perturbations in charge weight.

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Originally Posted by TXRam


We can also determine that with a chronograph.





Sure you can. But i would think you'd want to see it on a target as well.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Originally Posted by TXRam


We can also determine that with a chronograph.





Sure you can. But i would think you'd want to see it on a target as well.


You can have decent groups at 300yds that have wider velocity swings than I'd choose for my loads. I prefer a chronograph for many reasons.

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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Originally Posted by Hondo64d


Why only vertical?

John


Because inconsistencies in ignition and wide velocity spreads will result in vertical dispersion at real distance.

that's what's been explained to me. I'm sure Rick will correct me if mistaken. I'm not a match shooter. smile



Velocity spreads can cause vertical because of the position of the muzzle at bullet exit. No matter how carefully one loads his ammo, there will ALWAYS be velocity differences between shots. Therefore, finding the optimal bullet exit time will reduce vertical stringing.

This is the entire reason The Audette Method trumps all other methods.


Originally Posted by TXRam
Originally Posted by BobinNH
Originally Posted by Hondo64d


Why only vertical?

John


Because inconsistencies in ignition and wide velocity spreads will result in vertical dispersion at real distance.

that's what's been explained to me. I'm sure Rick will correct me if mistaken. I'm not a match shooter. smile


We can also determine that with a chronograph.

My point being that if it's calm (min or no wind), any large spread in horizontal should not be ignored. If it can reasonably be explained by wind, no problem.

I've seen folks just use the vertical with no regard for 4" spread at 300yds on a calm day - I don't buy ignoring that.




Using chronograph data to choose a load will not always yield the best long range load, so that statement is incorrect.

Take a "fantasy" load that always shoots at 3000 fps. Simply because it performs the best statistically, doesn't mean it will shoot the best on paper. The exit time of the bullet could be when the barrel is moving inconsistently causing poor accuracy and vertical.




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Yes, someone that gets it. I always go with best paper results, rather than best chrono results.

Chrono has its uses. But not for load selection.


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Originally Posted by rost495
Yes, someone that gets it. I always go with best paper results, rather than best chrono results.

Chrono has its uses. But not for load selection.


I don't know squat about this ladder stuff, but I can't imagine working up loads without a chrono.


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I only use one to check to see if the component combination is giving me the velocity I want.


Originally Posted by Bristoe
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Quote
I only use one to check to see if the component combination is giving me the velocity I want.


I'm not that sophisticated. I chronograph so I can read about it later. Of course I have little man syndrome so I go for the highest velocity I can get that give the accuracy I desire.


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Originally Posted by TXRam
Originally Posted by BobinNH
Originally Posted by TXRam


We can also determine that with a chronograph.





Sure you can. But i would think you'd want to see it on a target as well.


You can have decent groups at 300yds that have wider velocity swings than I'd choose for my loads. I prefer a chronograph for many reasons.


That's maybe because 300 yards isn't "long range".

No one said they don't use a chronograph. use one all the time and have been since the first one's became available. Don't you do more than one thing when you work up a load, like shoot it at distances? As in:
1) chronograph
2) shoot at distance?

What is so hard to understand?


Last edited by BobinNH; 02/04/16.



The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by rcamuglia
I only use one to check to see if the component combination is giving me the velocity I want.


Yes, and obviously pressures tag right along with velocity.


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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Originally Posted by TXRam


We can also determine that with a chronograph.





Sure you can. But i would think you'd want to see it on a target as well.


Even more so.


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