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I've read dozens of comments through the years that they're easy to kill, but I just read Ralph Young's two books, and he says they're extremely hard to kill -- harder than brown bears. Since he was in on the kill of about 1000 black bears during his 30 years of guiding, you would think he'd know what he was talking about.

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Ask JJHACK; he's killed or been in on the kill of more than anyone else on this site.



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With today's modern bullets they aren't too hard to kill. That could have been a factor, poor bullets in his day. The guy I guided for shot lots of bears over the years and he didn't like shoulder shots since he saw many bears run off with broken shoulders. Another factor is the chest of a bear is quite small compared to the rest of his body so some guys may be hitting them around the edges somewhere. The guy I guided for did also say most of his hunters were poor shots. I guided his European hunters which generally are better shots than the guys from North America.


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Originally Posted by 4ager
Ask JJHACK; he's killed or been in on the kill of more than anyone else on this site.



Yup.

In my grand total of three black bears on spot-and-stalk hunts here in Washington, one went down instantly to the first shot and stayed there.

The other two required multiple shots to anchor.

Good hits are paramount - but they can be tenacious.

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If you can kill deer with it, you can kill black bear with it.


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Originally Posted by ingwe
If you can kill deer with it, you can kill black bear with it.


Yep, I know a guy who shot one with a 222, although I would prefer something a little bigger. The 260 and 6.5x55 are a couple of good rounds for blackies.


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Originally Posted by ingwe
If you can kill deer with it, you can kill black bear with it.


That's what everybody says, but it's hard to square that with this statement from Young:

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There ability to absorb and withstand vital tissue damage is beyond comprehension. I know of no American big game animal as hard to put down and keep down, and this does not exclude the might and horrendous Alaskan brown bear.

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If you don't hit a vital area with your shot they can go a long way and often not be recovered. They are tough but a shot through both lungs does them in pretty quick. I know a guy who shot one with a 338 RUM and a 250 gr bullet at 3000 fps, at the shot it dropped (very common with bears)so he walked over towards it with his gun down. As he got closer the bear jumped up and ran away never to be seen again, they even went back with a dog but never found it. Obviously he never hit the lungs and that big cannon did him no good, but he couldn't believe anything could ever stand up to the mighty 338 RUM. It's guys like this that will start telling everyone that you need a 375 or bigger.....


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I've heard that they have a very slow respiratory rate - don't know that - but have been told that.

And that this can give them a tremendous ability to continue running, even after taking a shot to one lung...

Concur Gerry, that shot placement is likely the biggest problem - they're kind of a big, dark, furry ball, and look different in the sights than do the deer we normally hunt.

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One bear to my credit, take it for what it's worth.

If you shoot them downhill from the front and put a TTSX through the chest, spine, one lung, and exit through the last ribs on the off side, they roll over and stick their feet up in the air.

From a gay 270 Win no less.



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I should also mention if someone wants to use a big gun that's fine, I have even used the 375 Ruger one time on a blackie. But I have also seen the 260, 6.5x55 and 270 Win work just as good.


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Originally Posted by GuyM
I've heard that they have a very slow respiratory rate - don't know that - but have been told that.

And that this can give them a tremendous ability to continue running, even after taking a shot to one lung...

Concur Gerry, that shot placement is likely the biggest problem - they're kind of a big, dark, furry ball, and look different in the sights than do the deer we normally hunt.

Guy


The respiration/heart rate thing is rolled out pretty often, but that came from hibernating bears. Look at the muscle... very dark meat due to lots of myoglobin which stores oxygen in the muscle for endurance.

Take away blood and they still have enough oxygen to go a long way.

I have watched over a hundred get shot with a strong half being ones I shot. Being raised to shoot ribs, I did, but don't. I prefer to make an exit wound with an X on the far side shoulder... that stops them.

Two of my worst bear experiences came by way of smallish black bears yet Young calls them cowards...

Good bullets from today are far better than yesteryear's and that makes the shoulder shot good.



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I suspect Waterrat may have seen a few die, too...


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Not going to argue with all the black bear experience on here,and especially Young.

I have not killed a lot of them myself but been around enough dead ones in our bear camps in northern Maine. We used everything from the 257 Roberts to the 375 H&H. We noticed the 30/06 with 165 Partitions were very good and mostly exited on any shot.

The two that gave the toughest time and longest trails were both hit too far back with a 257 Roberts,115 partition, and a 340 Weatherby with 210 NPT.

Of my last two,one was shoulder shot at maybe 20-30 feet with a 270 and 130 NPT;it collapsed and bullet exited. The other was hit through ribs and lungs with a 140 Bitterroot from a 280 Remington. He collapsed at the shot,squirmed a little and died.i am told it's hard to get a bear to die on the spot with lung hits. That one wasn't.

How tough are they? I dunno. They never seemed too tough to me.But if you hit them wrong they can be I guess.




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Here in NC we have some pretty big ones down east. On the hunts I have been in on seems the old 30.30 or 35 Rem is the favorite.


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I guided bear hunters for 15 years in Maine and have seen QUITE A FEW bear taken over bait and by the use of hounds. I've also tracked quite a few that were lost due to bad shots.

I've seen hunters kill them with rifles of all calibers ranging from a 30-30 to 338 Win mag and everything in between. I've seen several killed with both 20 & 12 gauge shotgun slugs, 4-5 killed with large cal handguns and probably 20+ killed with compound bows, traditional bows and crossbows.
I've killed 8 myself, 5 with rifles and 3 with archery equipment. My wife has taken 3 and my son 1.

Like most big game animals an individual bears reaction to a shot varies by animal and circumstances. I've seen some dropped and "frozen" by a single shot and I've seen others run off with the same shot placement and required additional shots to kill it. In general I'd say they do have a strong desire to live and because of hair and fat often don't leave good blood trails.

I'm not disputing Mr. Young's opinion and can only form and offer my own based on my experiences. The AVERAGE live weight of a black bear in the lower 48 is 200 lbs. I do not consider them any harder to kill than any other big game animal IF shot placement goes where it needs to be.


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I have only killed a few and they died easy (all 358 win), My bear guide who sees a couple dozen a year shot doesn't seem to think it takes much to kill one and says that ones that are tough to recover are poorly shot.

I would just say a lot of black bears are shot at last light and the black of the coat makes picking a good aiming point challenging. If were going to tool up for bear I would consider at an illuminated reticle, more than I would obsess over cartridge.


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Between my son and I we have taken 5. 1 with a .30-06 (165 gr factory core lokt), 1 with a .308 (130 gr TTSX handload), 1 with a .257 Bee (110 gr Accubond handload)and 2 with a .350 mag (200 gr TSX handload).

The only one that got double lunged was with the .257 Bee and the 110 Accubond. He ran about 50 yards.

The 4 others were shot in the neck and dropped. Recovered 1 bullet and that was from the .350 mag on a 350 pound bear. Bullet went into the neck passed through the chest, broke the ball/socket joint at opposite leg and stopped just under the hide. It was a 200 gr barnes TSX. I realized then just how much heavy muscle a big black bear has. We strive for neck shots when at all possible. If not I would go for a double shoulder shot with a premium bullet and follow up as necessary. Tracking is a chore in the thick stuff where we hunt and a bear hide can soak up a lot of blood before it starts dripping. This just from my very limited experience.


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My black bear success is very limited to a single small bear. However I like the advice of the Manitoba outfitters I've used.
Black bear die faster from a well-placed arrow than a bullet. Black bear blood clots almost instantly(they would have killed each other off if it didn't), so if an arrow stays inside the vital zone, it makes another cut whenever the bear's leg moves. A bullet makes a single hole, and if it isn't a perfect hit, the blood doesn't flow for long. If shot by a powerful bow and the arrow passes all the way through, a bow isn't any more effective than a bullet.
On my last try, the only bear that didn't go 30 yards was hit in the heart with an arrow which almost bisected the heart.

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Actually, Young only gives a couple-three examples of this hard to killness, and they are nothing especially phenomenal -- I've seen whitetails with more will to live, so I think I'll believe the members here rather than Young.

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I've shot bear with the 7RemMag 160gr Swift A frame and 338-06 with 200gr Speer (my deer load) and 210 Nosler Partition. None went over 50 yds. I try for a quartering on shoulder shot or preferable a double shoulder. Have seen many bear in camp that were shot with 308, 30-06, 35REM, 45-70, 450 Marlin but the most by one hunter with a 264 Win Mag. His only rifle and over 20 bear to his credit with two I saw over 400 lbs. As most have said it is a good bullet in the right place that gets the job done.

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I was somewhat surprised on my first Ontario black bear hunt. That a smallish bear took a 285 grain prvi partizan bullet delivered from a 9.3x62 through both shoulders and was able to run a short run before getting tangled in some woods. It dropped within sight though! I intend to use it again although a 308 winchester would bring home a bear just the same.

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Back in PA we found adrenaline fueled "driven" bears were much tougher to anchor than Bears on natural feeding movement.

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I've always found black bears to be very easy to kill. Not one bit harder to kill than a whitetail. If anything, they are even more apt to drop at the shot.

You can up your odds by putting your shots through at least one shoulder and picking bullets that are more suitable for deer than a rhinoceros. Frontal chest shots, and a center chest on one standing on its hind legs will usually crumple them up. The standing upright shot is quite common when they are in oat fields.


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A friend that killed 100+ blacks and a bunch of grizzlies from a heli preferred 12 ga Brennekes but the natives, that were butchering the bears for village food, complained about the extensive meat damage so he switched to Foster type slugs.

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I've killed one black bear, shot through the heart with a .45-70. He jumped into the air and dropped right where I shot him. Another hunter in camp shot one through the shoulder with a .338 and it ran off and was lost.

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Originally Posted by Squirrelnut
I've killed one black bear, shot through the heart with a .45-70. He jumped into the air and dropped right where I shot him. Another hunter in camp shot one through the shoulder with a .338 and it ran off and was lost.


Either a bad bullet in the .338, or he didn't hit the shoulder.


Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Originally Posted by VernAK
A friend that killed 100+ blacks and a bunch of grizzlies from a heli preferred 12 ga Brennekes but the natives, that were butchering the bears for village food, complained about the extensive meat damage so he switched to Foster type slugs.


That would be good duty...


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Originally Posted by 4ager
Originally Posted by Squirrelnut
I've killed one black bear, shot through the heart with a .45-70. He jumped into the air and dropped right where I shot him. Another hunter in camp shot one through the shoulder with a .338 and it ran off and was lost.


Either a bad bullet in the .338, or he didn't hit the shoulder.


I'm always amazed that folks know where the bullet hit and ended up, even though they never find the animal....


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I think the Barnes TSX (TTSX) is the bomb on bears in any deer chambering out there. If I had to choose 1 bullet for black bears (only kind we have) it would be a Barnes.

The damage that a 130 gr TTSX in .308 Win did to one of our bears was spectacular. No need for heavyweights unless you are running a medium big bore already.


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Originally Posted by rost495
Originally Posted by 4ager
Originally Posted by Squirrelnut
I've killed one black bear, shot through the heart with a .45-70. He jumped into the air and dropped right where I shot him. Another hunter in camp shot one through the shoulder with a .338 and it ran off and was lost.


Either a bad bullet in the .338, or he didn't hit the shoulder.


I'm always amazed that folks know where the bullet hit and ended up, even though they never find the animal....


I didn't know the guy other than a buddy and I shared a camp with him and three other guys on a combo moose/bear hunt in Newfoundland. I wasn't there when he shot it but that was the story he told in camp that evening after he and his guide returned from looking for it. Personally, I thought the guy seemed more interested in drinking than hunting so I wasn't real surprised when he said he'd wounded and lost a bear.

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My friend runs a camp in Maine, he likes hunters to use a 30 cal or larger, 180 gr or larger bullet, (not necessarily a cannon, he's fine with 308s, 35 rem, 06 and the like) and recommends no shoulder shots. However as a guide he deals with sportsman of all abilities, so guides need to give themselves a little edge since they will be the ones chasing wounded bears. Only shot one smaller one myself with a 300 weatherby that went 20 yds. Hope to chase them again this year in Maine.


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Originally Posted by postoak

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There ability to absorb and withstand vital tissue damage is beyond comprehension. I know of no American big game animal as hard to put down and keep down, and this does not exclude the might and horrendous Alaskan brown bear.

To my way of thinking, that's the reason to break shoulders.



The problem seems to be that for some a shoulder is just somewhere in the front half. It's easy to miss bone leave the bear with a nonfatal survivable injury. Even hitting the scapula can allow a bear to escape. (Art - maybe you can post your pic of a perforated scap?)

With a bear quarter toward, take out THE POINT OF THE SHOULDER which is the scapular-humeral joint.

If quartering away, take out heart/lungs on the way to the offside shoulder.

They don't go nowhere, or at least not far.

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Further reference:

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I've only killed 2 black bears, both with a 280. My guide also doesn't like shoulder shots. Shot the first one with a 160 gr. NPT and the second one with a 175 gr. NPT Both heart /lung hits , first one dropped at the shot ,the other one ran about 50 ft.

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There are archery bear hunting guides who recomend shooting for the 'middle of the middle' or exactly where the midpoint of the front and back legs intersect with the midpoint of the back and belly....


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Have never shot a black bear myself, but friends in PENN tell me they arent hard to kill, just hard to find. They disappear like ghosts around small game season in most areas.

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Originally Posted by ironbender
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That's freaky....


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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by VernAK
A friend that killed 100+ blacks and a bunch of grizzlies from a heli preferred 12 ga Brennekes but the natives, that were butchering the bears for village food, complained about the extensive meat damage so he switched to Foster type slugs.


That would be good duty...


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If you azz shoot blackies with an Uber magnum, I've heard they live a long time.


Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.


Originally Posted by JohnBurns
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Originally Posted by Poconojack
There are archery bear hunting guides who recomend shooting for the 'middle of the middle' or exactly where the midpoint of the front and back legs intersect with the midpoint of the back and belly....


Really?

Based on the jif ironbender posted, that would result in a solid gut shot.

I wouldn't listen to those "guides"


Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.


Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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I agree. Not hard to kill at all. It's the poor shot placement by hunters that poses the greatest challenge.

I've processed hundreds of black bears as a former taxidermist and I've shot more than a few on my own. Trust me: Place your shot well and they'll die from almost any deer cartridge; they do run fast so a few might cover up to 100+ yards if only lunged.


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I have killed three and all three were whimps. My last, from BC.

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Good thing you had that lawn tractor to help you get out there wink nice looking bear.....


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Originally Posted by bellydeep
Originally Posted by Poconojack
There are archery bear hunting guides who recomend shooting for the 'middle of the middle' or exactly where the midpoint of the front and back legs intersect with the midpoint of the back and belly....


Really?

Based on the jif ironbender posted, that would result in a solid gut shot.

I wouldn't listen to those "guides"


Think "liver"


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Originally Posted by Akbob5
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by VernAK
A friend that killed 100+ blacks and a bunch of grizzlies from a heli preferred 12 ga Brennekes but the natives, that were butchering the bears for village food, complained about the extensive meat damage so he switched to Foster type slugs.


That would be good duty...


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My EXACT thought when I posted that! smile


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Originally Posted by ironbender
Originally Posted by postoak

Quote
There ability to absorb and withstand vital tissue damage is beyond comprehension. I know of no American big game animal as hard to put down and keep down, and this does not exclude the might and horrendous Alaskan brown bear.

To my way of thinking, that's the reason to break shoulders.



The problem seems to be that for some a shoulder is just somewhere in the front half. It's easy to miss bone leave the bear with a nonfatal survivable injury. Even hitting the scapula can allow a bear to escape. (Art - maybe you can post your pic of a perforated scap?)

With a bear quarter toward, take out THE POINT OF THE SHOULDER which is the scapular-humeral joint.

If quartering away, take out heart/lungs on the way to the offside shoulder.

They don't go nowhere, or at least not far.

[Linked Image]



Tried to find that pic but it must be on another computer... OlBlue has the original pic, it was his Kodiak bear.


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Originally Posted by bellydeep
If you azz shoot blackies with an Uber magnum, I've heard they live a long time.


Careful! They might Charger you!


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Originally Posted by Squirrelnut
Originally Posted by rost495
Originally Posted by 4ager
Originally Posted by Squirrelnut
I've killed one black bear, shot through the heart with a .45-70. He jumped into the air and dropped right where I shot him. Another hunter in camp shot one through the shoulder with a .338 and it ran off and was lost.


Either a bad bullet in the .338, or he didn't hit the shoulder.


I'm always amazed that folks know where the bullet hit and ended up, even though they never find the animal....


I didn't know the guy other than a buddy and I shared a camp with him and three other guys on a combo moose/bear hunt in Newfoundland. I wasn't there when he shot it but that was the story he told in camp that evening after he and his guide returned from looking for it. Personally, I thought the guy seemed more interested in drinking than hunting so I wasn't real surprised when he said he'd wounded and lost a bear.


Forgive me please. I"m getting older. And cynical.

The test for me to tell if someone is telling a lie? Is their mouth open?


That said, bear vitals are like Aoudads... forward. Anything behind the crease isn't all that great...

My rule of thumb to this day, if it has to be DRT, shoot the ear socket.

If not, and its something I might think about breaking a shoulder on, I strive to only take the shoulder on the way out.
Last moose was example. Just in front of the joint going in, shoulder going out. Did not hurt that I was holding to break the base of the neck also, and managed to center that. But I prefer to take bone going out only. That way I know my bullet had the best chance to penetrate, expand, not come apart, and travel a straight line before hitting something that could change all of that.


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My black bear died TOO easy. It was up in the tree and I center punched it with a 150gr BT from my 308 at about 30-30 speed. It died in the tree and stayed there! We had to cut down not just one, but two trees to get the bear on the ground.


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I've killed a few bears. The largest, and the one that lived the longest after being shot was hit with a 338WM. Broke only one shoulder and took out the heart. The 225 Hornady IB left a fist-sized hole on exit. The bear traveled maybe 40 yards before dying. Others with 270s, 308s and 06s went down sooner, some in their tracks. The difference was both shoulders were broken and/or the CNS was disrupted.

As rost mentions, ya need to hit a bear in front of the crease.


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I've shot lots of blacks. Poisoned, snared ,trapped 30 one summer for various beekeepers. Troublesome bears that keep knocking over hives. The ones that die fastest are the ones that bite the end of my 30-30 when they are in the tank trap. LOL. You have to use small caliber so you don't shoot holes through the rangers traps. When they are fatted up in the fall they can take a lot of lead before going down.


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In PA we always hunted them in late November when they were at their heaviest. I imagine that makes a difference.

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I've only taken four, all over bait. Based on that small sample I've found that they aren't any harder to kill than deer, but it takes them a little longer to understand that they are dead. If they can move after they are shot they scoot a lot faster than a deer.


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As has ben mentioned here I was a damage control manager for a 360,000 acre tree farm in Wa. State. Because of the situation I was permitted to kill bears with any means needed with the exception of poison. No season, no limit for the first few years not even record keeping was required!

During this period I ran hounds in the areas that had road access, and I ran baits in the remote roadless fringe areas, or near highways where I did not want the dogs running out of sight. In some places I used culvert traps and some places Kleflock spring loaded cable snares

I think the " low heart rate" issue was addressed properly. It's a mistake to connect a hibernating heart rate with the active heart rate. A bear does not actually hibernate, they simply go into a dormant state and sleep. A hibernating animal is in a type of self induced coma. They cannot be aroused and active when hibernating. Funny the most common animal attributed to hibernation is the one that does not actually hibernate! A bear is quite easily woken up when you find them in the middle of winter! We did this frequently with radio tracking gear to tag the cubs, and change the collar of the female. ( once darted, They were fully awake and not pleased to be interupted)

I think one of the most common situations with bears seeming to be difficult to kill has little to do with the statement. It has to do with the difficulty to find them and the amount of bears that are lost after being shot. Many folks shooting a hoofed animal casually follow up the track and comfortably trail it,... and go find it, or at least look for it. Many don't even have the gun with them, just use a flashlight.

There is a point when following up a bear that has not bled much, a common situation with the heavy layer of fat and the thick underfur which absorbs quite a bit of blood. At some point as the blood is getting complicated to follow, the big soft feet not leaving any visible tracks, and the thick bush a bear will seek out.

This changes the outlook on recreational sport hunting for a lot of folks. It is no longer fun, it's no longer just a blood tracking challenge. It becomes a potential life threatening problem. This is especially true for the person alone in fading light or no light. Had one fella tracking his bear with his Cell phone "flashlight". Tracked is so slowly the battery died and then left him with no ability to call for help, and no more light!

The bear that has been shot might have only gone 100 yards, however that hundred yard radius is a lot of ground to cover when you're paranoia is creeping into your comfort level to do this. I believe this is one of the things that reflect on why some folks say they are so hard to kill. I think the statement would be more accurate, they are so difficult to find (possibly so intimidating to find as well)

I have heard grown men express that the bear must have only had a superficial wound because the blood ran out and he tracked is over 100 yards. I contend that the animal was probably killed and just ran without any blood to track and rolled under the brush out of sight. However the fella will go use the tag on another one now.

I have tracked a whole lot of big game in my career. Without exaggeration several thousand animals. Bears are without question one of the most difficult because the fur and fat have an incredible ability to stop the blood flow. In the thick forest habitat they inhabit, the forest floor is not usually good tracking with their big soft feet. They do not leave sharply dug in hoof tracks.

I have been knocked down and chewed and clawed by a bear, Their threat level is real. It may only be 1 in a 100 that will decide he's had enough of you and wants to call your bluff. When that decision is made there is a big problem to solve that will not allow much time to react to your course of action. These stories begin to haunt the recreational sportsman looking for a bear he has just shot. Just a couple years ago I was asked to track a bear that was shot the previous evening. That bear was quite difficult to track in the 6' tall thick blackberries. On hands and knees seeing just spots of blood over the course of 1/2 mile I found myself 20 feet from this bear when he decided to stop walking and call my bluff. I shot him quite hurriedly two times at near point blank under this canopy of blackberries. He died within touching distance of me.

This bear was originally shot with quite a powerful rifle, but the shot was not well placed. To far back. Cartridge power does not make up for proper placement. This past September I killed my 25th black bear with my Bow. I've never had a bear go further then 100-125 yards with an arrow. Many have died within 40-50 yards. I've seen them go further with a big powerful rifle and a great shot. The real beauty of the arrow on bears is the ease of following the blood trail. Broadheads really slice them open and the blood flows with enthusiasm! I've seen well over several hundred killed with my 44 mag revolver, many in snares, treed, or just while hunting or in other situations on the tree farm. They will run anywhere from DRT to 100 plus yards. That big .430 diameter bullet lets the blood flow very nicely as well.

Where the blood flow begins to seriously struggle is on bears shot above centerline of the body and with bullets smaller then .308 diameter. There is plenty of resolution on this to justify my strong opinion. Sub .308 bullets just do not provide the same blood flow that bullets .308 and larger do constantly. Exceptions apply to every opinion. Mine is no different. I have seen blood spraying out the entry hole when a bear was shot with a 25/06, and a 357 mag revolver. However for every one experience like that there are dozens or more that provide nothing to follow after the first 40-50 yards you have nothing.

One last experience with this. Lots of bears are shot by people in the high country across canyons or clearcuts. When the range gets to be 250-300-400 plus lots of problems are possible. Even when everything goes right with a perfect shot the bear is still lost. This can even happen with a DRT bear!

When you shoot that far and have to drop down into a low canyon and climb the opposite ridge and arrive at the location you think you were shooting at. Nothing looks the same. Looking back at where you think you shot from nothing looks familiar because you did not see it from that direction when you shot. Now you could be 50-80 yards above or below the elevation, maybe 50-75 yards right or left. Now you have a big area to search. All that while that paranoia is creeping in because it's not a deer you are looking for. It's a meat eater with canine teeth and ten powerful claws that you just perforated. This guy did not wake up happy that morning and now you went and poked a hole through him.

As this plays on your mind, the determination to continue fades and the comments about " Black bears are so tough to kill" plays on your mind. " well no blood guess I missed" yeah but it is laying 50 yards below you dead, you just never found it.

It's easy to solve this with a range finder and a couple feet of surveyors tape. Mark the tree you shot from. Range the spot you shot at with your LRF. Then when you cross the gap and range back to the tape you will be at the exact distance although it could still be to the right or left, at least you're in the ball park.

Well that's my take on this topic, it's worth what you paid for it!






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Originally Posted by ingwe
If you can kill deer with it, you can kill black bear with it.



True but,

A black bears will to live and f'you up by far exceeds a deer.

JJhack isn't talking out his azzzzz... Nothing trumps shot placement. But can you place the shot? Not directed at you Ingwe. Just hunters in general.


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Originally Posted by JJHACK
As has ben mentioned here I was a damage control manager for a 360,000 acre tree farm in Wa. State. Because of the situation......


I have tracked a whole lot of big game in my career. Without exaggeration several thousand animals. Bears are without question one of the most difficult because the fur and fat have an incredible ability to stop the blood flow. In the thick forest habitat they inhabit, the forest floor is not usually good tracking with their big soft feet. They do not leave sharply dug in hoof tracks.


It's easy to solve this with a range finder and a couple feet of surveyors tape. Mark the tree you shot from. Range the spot you shot at with your LRF. Then when you cross the gap and range back to the tape you will be at the exact distance although it could still be to the right or left, at least you're in the ball park.

Well that's my take on this topic, it's worth what you paid for it!




JJHACK;
Good morning to you sir, I hope this finds you and yours doing acceptably well.

I wanted to say a quick personal thanks for taking the time to share your experience with us. In my view any potential black bear hunter should read and then re-read it until they thoroughly understand what you've written.

Although I only quoted a couple points of your post, there's more that I very likely should have.

Up here in my part of BC I've known more experienced hunters who have lost a black bear after a hit than all other animals combined. I should also note that I count as friends a couple of chaps who have guided for black bears over many seasons and their observations mirror yours.

Anyway sir, thanks again for taking the time to share your black bear experience with us - it's grand, solid information.

All the best to you folks this weekend.

Dwayne


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Enjoyed that read JJ and thanks for taking the time to write it. I want to show the fat on the black bear that I shot this season, which was a 350 pound boar. He had the most fat of any bear we have killed.

[Linked Image]

We rendered some fat from one of the hams:

[Linked Image]





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One of my hunting buddies uses it for popcorn claims it's the best.
I've not tried that but mention it as an additional use.


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JJ

Thanks for taking the time to type out that long post. Lots of informative advice in there.


Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.


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I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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Use in pie crusts for the best, flakiness, and most flavorful crusts. Also, use for deep frying doughnuts and rosettes- you will never be satisfied with Crisco or beef lard again.

I have nowhere near the experience as JJHack but I have shot a few. I'll agree with him regarding the thoughts going through the mind when following a bear. I haven't lost one but I often had second thoughts while crawling through the brush on hands and knees looking for blood.

I further agree on weapon choice. In MN we have only a fall season where one has to contend with thick fat and heavy fur. These prevent a lot of outside blood loss unless a large exit hole is left.

Shooting from an elevated stand is commonly done here as we mostly shoot over bait which keeps the exit low further helping with blood sign. The two bears I did not shoot from a stand left little blood and I was lucky enough the one shot with a 54 caliber muzzleloader dropped in a cornfield where he was easily seen down a row and the other fell a few yards away after being shot 5 times with a 357 mag pistol. Neither had low exit wounds and had little showing blood.

Shot placement is also key. As mentioned, a bear's vitals are a bit more forward than on a deer. I wait until the near leg is moved forward and then shoot close to it. Most times I get both lungs, the heart, and off shoulder since I wait for the bear to quarter a bit away from me. That is the best angle for an arrow from what I've been told so I figured it would be just as effective with a rifle.

That bears are mostly solid black and are shot at last light can have an affect too. It can be harder to align the sight to a vital place as sight or reticle can blend in with the bear. This makes placing the shot correctly a little tougher which further enhances the claims of a bear being hard to kill.

With a 30/06 or 300 mag, using heavily built 180 gr or heavier bullets I get full pass through and a short trail. It's not infrequently the bear dies right there as the bullet passes close enough to the spine to drop the bear immediately. This seems to occur more often with the larger bores of 35 caliber and bigger.

Bears aren't tougher than deer if hit solidly in the vitals but they can be tougher to find, both physically and mentally, afterward. Having claws and sharp teeth only add to the mystique of the bear's toughness.

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I've killed in the neighborhood of 30 black bears, some on bait, but mostly spot and stalk. For me, 80% of the time it's a one shot deal, but bears have seldom dropped on the spot and usually run a ways, sometimes quite a ways, even with a perfect double-lung shot.

Here and there, one really hangs on and takes a surprising amount to stop. Overall, they hang on a little longer and are tougher to stop than a similar sized deer and I've learned that if you have the opportunity for an "insurance shot", take it.

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On the bear fat subject:

I use berry-fed bear fat for everything I cook, including the "butter" on my breakfast this morning. There are a couple of gallons in my fridge at the moment. If you have the opportunity to render some, don't pass it up!

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As a hunt club this year in WV we took two during rifle season. Both were with 243s using 95 nosler ballistic tips. Deer they ain't but a 95 does just fine.

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Well I worked at a Sporting goods store where they registered and weighed black bears. I talk to people who hunt them with dogs and shoot them out of a tree. I have seen bears that are 400 lbs or even more. I have only shot one over bait and a 225 gr Nosler Partition through the heart stopped him in his tracks. I think hunting with dogs is the way to go but it is not legal in Minnesota.
Wisconsin allows it and it is popular.
I think people who use iron sights at dusk in the woods probably think bears are hard to kill because it is hard to make a clean shot.
If you have a good scope that might make all the difference.


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I've shot them with 223, 250 Savage, 358, 375 Winchester, 300 mag. Probly others I don't remember. I don't recommend the 223. Things can get exciting.

Here's next years crawling-through-the-manzanita-thickets-bear-gun that I finished recently. It's a Savage 99 in 375 Winchester with a much shortened barrel. I swapped out the straight gripped heavy wood for curved grip featherweight wood, and the straight lever for a curved one. Now it hangs on one arm like a proper levergun should. Shoots nice little groups and handles fast. Should be perfect for calling them up close.

[Linked Image]



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Wow! I didn't realize the 99 was avail in .375 Win. Cool rifle.

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JJ - thanks once again for contributing so much to the discussion on hunting black bears!

Appreciate you sharing your experience with us.

Regards, Guy

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Originally Posted by JJHACK
As has ben mentioned here I was a damage control manager for a 360,000 acre tree farm in Wa. State. Because of the situation I was permitted to kill bears with any means needed with the exception of poison. No season, no limit for the first few years not even record keeping was required!

During this period I ran hounds in the areas that had road access, and I ran baits in the remote roadless fringe areas, or near highways where I did not want the dogs running out of sight. In some places I used culvert traps and some places Kleflock spring loaded cable snares

I think the " low heart rate" issue was addressed properly. It's a mistake to connect a hibernating heart rate with the active heart rate. A bear does not actually hibernate, they simply go into a dormant state and sleep. A hibernating animal is in a type of self induced coma. They cannot be aroused and active when hibernating. Funny the most common animal attributed to hibernation is the one that does not actually hibernate! A bear is quite easily woken up when you find them in the middle of winter! We did this frequently with radio tracking gear to tag the cubs, and change the collar of the female. ( once darted, They were fully awake and not pleased to be interupted)

I think one of the most common situations with bears seeming to be difficult to kill has little to do with the statement. It has to do with the difficulty to find them and the amount of bears that are lost after being shot. Many folks shooting a hoofed animal casually follow up the track and comfortably trail it,... and go find it, or at least look for it. Many don't even have the gun with them, just use a flashlight.

There is a point when following up a bear that has not bled much, a common situation with the heavy layer of fat and the thick underfur which absorbs quite a bit of blood. At some point as the blood is getting complicated to follow, the big soft feet not leaving any visible tracks, and the thick bush a bear will seek out.

This changes the outlook on recreational sport hunting for a lot of folks. It is no longer fun, it's no longer just a blood tracking challenge. It becomes a potential life threatening problem. This is especially true for the person alone in fading light or no light. Had one fella tracking his bear with his Cell phone "flashlight". Tracked is so slowly the battery died and then left him with no ability to call for help, and no more light!

The bear that has been shot might have only gone 100 yards, however that hundred yard radius is a lot of ground to cover when you're paranoia is creeping into your comfort level to do this. I believe this is one of the things that reflect on why some folks say they are so hard to kill. I think the statement would be more accurate, they are so difficult to find (possibly so intimidating to find as well)

I have heard grown men express that the bear must have only had a superficial wound because the blood ran out and he tracked is over 100 yards. I contend that the animal was probably killed and just ran without any blood to track and rolled under the brush out of sight. However the fella will go use the tag on another one now.

I have tracked a whole lot of big game in my career. Without exaggeration several thousand animals. Bears are without question one of the most difficult because the fur and fat have an incredible ability to stop the blood flow. In the thick forest habitat they inhabit, the forest floor is not usually good tracking with their big soft feet. They do not leave sharply dug in hoof tracks.

I have been knocked down and chewed and clawed by a bear, Their threat level is real. It may only be 1 in a 100 that will decide he's had enough of you and wants to call your bluff. When that decision is made there is a big problem to solve that will not allow much time to react to your course of action. These stories begin to haunt the recreational sportsman looking for a bear he has just shot. Just a couple years ago I was asked to track a bear that was shot the previous evening. That bear was quite difficult to track in the 6' tall thick blackberries. On hands and knees seeing just spots of blood over the course of 1/2 mile I found myself 20 feet from this bear when he decided to stop walking and call my bluff. I shot him quite hurriedly two times at near point blank under this canopy of blackberries. He died within touching distance of me.

This bear was originally shot with quite a powerful rifle, but the shot was not well placed. To far back. Cartridge power does not make up for proper placement. This past September I killed my 25th black bear with my Bow. I've never had a bear go further then 100-125 yards with an arrow. Many have died within 40-50 yards. I've seen them go further with a big powerful rifle and a great shot. The real beauty of the arrow on bears is the ease of following the blood trail. Broadheads really slice them open and the blood flows with enthusiasm! I've seen well over several hundred killed with my 44 mag revolver, many in snares, treed, or just while hunting or in other situations on the tree farm. They will run anywhere from DRT to 100 plus yards. That big .430 diameter bullet lets the blood flow very nicely as well.

Where the blood flow begins to seriously struggle is on bears shot above centerline of the body and with bullets smaller then .308 diameter. There is plenty of resolution on this to justify my strong opinion. Sub .308 bullets just do not provide the same blood flow that bullets .308 and larger do constantly. Exceptions apply to every opinion. Mine is no different. I have seen blood spraying out the entry hole when a bear was shot with a 25/06, and a 357 mag revolver. However for every one experience like that there are dozens or more that provide nothing to follow after the first 40-50 yards you have nothing.

One last experience with this. Lots of bears are shot by people in the high country across canyons or clearcuts. When the range gets to be 250-300-400 plus lots of problems are possible. Even when everything goes right with a perfect shot the bear is still lost. This can even happen with a DRT bear!

When you shoot that far and have to drop down into a low canyon and climb the opposite ridge and arrive at the location you think you were shooting at. Nothing looks the same. Looking back at where you think you shot from nothing looks familiar because you did not see it from that direction when you shot. Now you could be 50-80 yards above or below the elevation, maybe 50-75 yards right or left. Now you have a big area to search. All that while that paranoia is creeping in because it's not a deer you are looking for. It's a meat eater with canine teeth and ten powerful claws that you just perforated. This guy did not wake up happy that morning and now you went and poked a hole through him.

As this plays on your mind, the determination to continue fades and the comments about " Black bears are so tough to kill" plays on your mind. " well no blood guess I missed" yeah but it is laying 50 yards below you dead, you just never found it.

It's easy to solve this with a range finder and a couple feet of surveyors tape. Mark the tree you shot from. Range the spot you shot at with your LRF. Then when you cross the gap and range back to the tape you will be at the exact distance although it could still be to the right or left, at least you're in the ball park.

Well that's my take on this topic, it's worth what you paid for it!







A Hell of a lot of nerve you have... actually posting with experience.

And your point about how bad the guy really wants to find that wounded bear in the dark is well put.


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Not a bad way to use a rangefinder, either.......



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Thanks Art, there are a million things I can't do or have never tried.

Bears and African game fall into my sweet spot of experience and knowledge. Mostly because that's been my job.

When you love what you do you never work a day in your life!


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I've taken 3 bears over bait in Quebec. All dropped within sight. I use a .35 Whelen with 225 gr Accubonds. I think I would have done about as well with a .30-06 with good bullets.

I know a couple other bear hunters. One has taken 25+ with a .308 using factory 150 gr core-lokts. His shot placement is good. His rifle looks like it was "rode hard and put away wet."

The other hunter I know has taken maybe 7 or 8, but has lost a couple with poor shot placement. His first loss was shot with a .30-.378 Weatherby. So, he decided he needed a bigger gun and moved up to a .338 Lapua. Guess what! A couple years later he lost another bear with a poor hit with the Lapua.

Shot placement trumps headstamp.

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Have you noticed the length of hair on the very biggest bears where it hangs down below the chest? I know of one lucky 27 year old boar that I shot too low because of it. The long hair made the body look deeper than it really was. I told a young kid about him when I moved from the area and darned if he didn't go find him and shoot him with a lever action 45-70.


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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by GuyM
I've heard that they have a very slow respiratory rate - don't know that - but have been told that.

And that this can give them a tremendous ability to continue running, even after taking a shot to one lung...

Concur Gerry, that shot placement is likely the biggest problem - they're kind of a big, dark, furry ball, and look different in the sights than do the deer we normally hunt.

Guy


The respiration/heart rate thing is rolled out pretty often, but that came from hibernating bears. Look at the muscle... very dark meat due to lots of myoglobin which stores oxygen in the muscle for endurance.

Take away blood and they still have enough oxygen to go a long way.

I have watched over a hundred get shot with a strong half being ones I shot. Being raised to shoot ribs, I did, but don't. I prefer to make an exit wound with an X on the far side shoulder... that stops them.

Two of my worst bear experiences came by way of smallish black bears yet Young calls them cowards...

Good bullets from today are far better than yesteryear's and that makes the shoulder shot good.



Very educational.......


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Originally Posted by Judman
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by GuyM
I've heard that they have a very slow respiratory rate - don't know that - but have been told that.

And that this can give them a tremendous ability to continue running, even after taking a shot to one lung...

Concur Gerry, that shot placement is likely the biggest problem - they're kind of a big, dark, furry ball, and look different in the sights than do the deer we normally hunt.

Guy


The respiration/heart rate thing is rolled out pretty often, but that came from hibernating bears. Look at the muscle... very dark meat due to lots of myoglobin which stores oxygen in the muscle for endurance.

Take away blood and they still have enough oxygen to go a long way.

I have watched over a hundred get shot with a strong half being ones I shot. Being raised to shoot ribs, I did, but don't. I prefer to make an exit wound with an X on the far side shoulder... that stops them.

Two of my worst bear experiences came by way of smallish black bears yet Young calls them cowards...

Good bullets from today are far better than yesteryear's and that makes the shoulder shot good.



Very educational.......


Phuqueoff! You are clueless and have zero clues about what the clued-in folks know about bears. Anything you try to pass off as enlightening to you is well known among those that actually get out after bears...


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I shot about a dozen when I was younger. I wouldn't say they are harder to kill. They are harder to track..............the fur soaks up blood and hunting seasons are when we have no snow.

The real difference, is when you are tracking a wounded or badly hit deer, there is no chance of dying. With bear, there is.

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I've killed a fair number of bears over the years, mostly in Maine and Canada. I have never considered them any harder to kill then deer of similar body weight.

I did notice, however, that they seem to travel less distance after the shot, if at all, since I started using a 45-70. I tried 425gr hardcast, 400gr JSP and 300gr X bullets and all three put them down rather handily.

Chest shots never stop any of these bullets.

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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Judman
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by GuyM
I've heard that they have a very slow respiratory rate - don't know that - but have been told that.

And that this can give them a tremendous ability to continue running, even after taking a shot to one lung...

Concur Gerry, that shot placement is likely the biggest problem - they're kind of a big, dark, furry ball, and look different in the sights than do the deer we normally hunt.

Guy


The respiration/heart rate thing is rolled out pretty often, but that came from hibernating bears. Look at the muscle... very dark meat due to lots of myoglobin which stores oxygen in the muscle for endurance.

Take away blood and they still have enough oxygen to go a long way.

I have watched over a hundred get shot with a strong half being ones I shot. Being raised to shoot ribs, I did, but don't. I prefer to make an exit wound with an X on the far side shoulder... that stops them.

Two of my worst bear experiences came by way of smallish black bears yet Young calls them cowards...

Good bullets from today are far better than yesteryear's and that makes the shoulder shot good.



Very educational.......


Phuqueoff! You are clueless and have zero clues about what the clued-in folks know about bears. Anything you try to pass off as enlightening to you is well known among those that actually get out after bears...


Laffin, dummy, bears ain't too hard to kill, if they run off, simply go find another... great talk...


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Great and informative post JJ.

Seriously, probably the best I've read on here in quite sometime.

Thanks for hammering it out.

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Originally Posted by Judman
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Judman
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by GuyM
I've heard that they have a very slow respiratory rate - don't know that - but have been told that.

And that this can give them a tremendous ability to continue running, even after taking a shot to one lung...

Concur Gerry, that shot placement is likely the biggest problem - they're kind of a big, dark, furry ball, and look different in the sights than do the deer we normally hunt.

Guy


The respiration/heart rate thing is rolled out pretty often, but that came from hibernating bears. Look at the muscle... very dark meat due to lots of myoglobin which stores oxygen in the muscle for endurance.

Take away blood and they still have enough oxygen to go a long way.

I have watched over a hundred get shot with a strong half being ones I shot. Being raised to shoot ribs, I did, but don't. I prefer to make an exit wound with an X on the far side shoulder... that stops them.

Two of my worst bear experiences came by way of smallish black bears yet Young calls them cowards...

Good bullets from today are far better than yesteryear's and that makes the shoulder shot good.



Very educational.......


Phuqueoff! You are clueless and have zero clues about what the clued-in folks know about bears. Anything you try to pass off as enlightening to you is well known among those that actually get out after bears...


Laffin, dummy, bears ain't too hard to kill, if they run off, simply go find another... great talk...


Cannot begin to express my level of comfort dealing with bears now that you have assured me they die easy...

Yeah, right!


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Might/could place a boolit where it belongs... HINT


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Also have a good bullet!!


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I have never shot a black bear, but was invited to hunt them, max shots were said to be less than 125 yards, scheduling/work on my part got in the way and I couldn't go.

For what it's worth, I checked zero on my pre-64 270 WCF firing 160 gr Partitions at 2800 fps, I could come up with no plausible reason why that combo wouldn't work on any black bear.


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Originally Posted by Judman
Might/could place a boolit where it belongs... HINT


Does your Momma know what you do down there in the basement?


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Originally Posted by Fireball2
Have you noticed the length of hair on the very biggest bears where it hangs down below the chest? I know of one lucky 27 year old boar that I shot too low because of it. The long hair made the body look deeper than it really was. I told a young kid about him when I moved from the area and darned if he didn't go find him and shoot him with a lever action 45-70.


The hair length is a big deal. Had I not happen to stumble upon a thread about shooting bears the night before I shot my first I would have no doubt shot low. The thread basically talked about the thickness of hair and fat on the chest leading to low shots. The following evening my first ever was killed with a midway between the top and bottom right behind the leg hold. He went 15 yards.

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Originally Posted by 78CJ
Originally Posted by Fireball2
Have you noticed the length of hair on the very biggest bears where it hangs down below the chest? I know of one lucky 27 year old boar that I shot too low because of it. The long hair made the body look deeper than it really was. I told a young kid about him when I moved from the area and darned if he didn't go find him and shoot him with a lever action 45-70.


The hair length is a big deal. Had I not happen to stumble upon a thread about shooting bears the night before I shot my first I would have no doubt shot low. The thread basically talked about the thickness of hair and fat on the chest leading to low shots. The following evening my first ever was killed with a midway between the top and bottom right behind the leg hold. He went 15 yards.


I have seen some bears with long shaggy coats but can't say I would necessarily correlate it with very big bears or any particular size for that matter. I have noticed the hair on our bears here is generally much longer on spring bears than on fall bears and I can see where especially in the spring it could cause a shot to be low. Just another example of how shot placement can be difficult on a black blob that doesn't display much for prominent features. The one thing I do know about the biggest of black bears relative to the subject is that they will test the penetrating ability of a bullet much more than deer sized game.

As far as the original question of are bears really hard to kill, well any wild animal can be hard to kill given the right circumstances and a bear is no exception. I have seen a lot of bears shot with about everything imaginable and I will say you can take a bear quickly and cleanly with almost any firearm or bow provided you select a proper projectile and take an appropriate shot for the weapon you are using. When it was time for my daughter to start hunting big game the only gun I could find that fit her was a 243 Win, she shot her first bear in the head with an 85 gr. Nosler Partition killing him instantly.

I prefer a larger caliber that allows more shot options and my personal bear guns for close range situations are a 444 Marlin rifle and a 454 Casull handgun but it is not because I think bears are necessarily tougher than other game animals but rather that I have a desire to be able to put them down immediately from any angle necessary, which can usually be done with either of those cartridges with the right shot placement.


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I can't claim the experience of JJ HACK, but in thirty years of policing in NW Ontario, I have shot a few bears, mostly controlling nuisance animals, usually at very close range, in the dark, and near houses. I had to use an issued weapon and in those times, a Remington 870 Wingmaster 12 guage stuffed with 00 buck was what we had to use.

Nine balls in the twelve bore fired into the forehead took the starch out of every blackie I ever had to shoot. They issued slugs just before I retired, and I am guessing they work better, but if over penetration is a risk, double aught buck will work.


"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)

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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Judman
Might/could place a boolit where it belongs... HINT


Does your Momma know what you do down there in the basement?


No but yours does....


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I've seen more bears drop when shot than anything else, except maybe ducks.

I've also seen more than a few get the [bleep] up after the shot.


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I just realized "Judman" is probably Big Stick.

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Originally Posted by Steelhead
I've seen more bears drop when shot than anything else, except maybe ducks.

I've also seen more than a few get the [bleep] up after the shot.


Yep.......


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Originally Posted by postoak
I just realized "Judman" is probably Big Stick.


I wondered about that too.


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Not even close, carry on....


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Originally Posted by postoak
I just realized "Judman" is probably Big Stick.


I doubt it... Stick does not usually say wrong dumb schit.


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Originally Posted by postoak
I just realized "Judman" is probably Big Stick.


No doubt. They're always complimentin' one another, it's a regular love-fest.



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Judman, you should throw up a kilt picture about now.



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We're allowed three over the counter bear tags a year. I've killed a bunch of them, no where near as many as JJ or a lot of the Alaskan guys.

Been in on some rodeos with wounded bears, I personally know three guys that have been ripped up by wounded bears. One of the guys we call Franken Wiener because of the 30 something stitches in his crotch, I think it was 17ish stitches in unit.

That being said, most of them have died pretty easy. The rodeos mostly have happened by experienced deer/elk hunter trying to bust shoulders on broad side shots. The broad side shoulder shots will just barely clip the lungs, make for some sporty recovery.

Think bow shot, through the boiler room and try to pin the off shoulder or bust a shoulder into the heart lungs on a quartering to shot. Tends to make recovery much more boring.



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Originally Posted by Rogue
One of the guys we call Franken Wiener


This makes me want to use a .375 H&H. I have heard of similar incidents with wild boars. Usually happens when someone tries to grab them by the ears or something equally foolish.


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He shot that thing four times with a 444 Marlin at maybe 50 yards. I got the call when he was at the hospital, then headed up to where he was hunting and recovered the bear.



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HMMM?? 4 shots with a 444, I'd definitely say he lost his cool or something because no bear I have ever seen is going to be mauling anyone after ONE well placed shot from a 444. I sure wish Hornady would bring back the old 265 flat point for the 444, this new Revolution crap that they are loading may be okay for shooting something 200 yards away but comparatively they seem to pretty much suck at real close range from what I've seen. Why did this happen, had to be poor shot placement or total bullet failure?


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I gutted and butchered that bear.

None of the shots were good.



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Originally Posted by postoak
I just realized "Judman" is probably Big Stick.


Doesn't 'Stick refer to him as "Judmam"?

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Originally Posted by Rogue

The rodeos mostly have happened by experienced deer/elk hunter trying to bust shoulders on broad side shots. The broad side shoulder shots will just barely clip the lungs, make for some sporty recovery.

Think bow shot, through the boiler room and try to pin the off shoulder or bust a shoulder into the heart lungs on a quartering to shot. Tends to make recovery much more boring.


Yep. Go back and look at the anatomy chart further up in this thread. Very little chest cavity at the shoulders and basically none in front. If you shoot a bear far enough forward to break the shoulder bone you have a good chance of missing the lungs if the bear is quartering to you a little. I made this mistake on the last day of my hunt in Alberta a couple of years ago. Early in the hunt I killed my first bear with a frontal shot at about 75 yards. The bear was on all fours and I put the 200 gr Partition from my 8mm mag under the chin and straight into the sternum. Instant collapse, not even a twitch.

The last day of the hunt we spotted a nice sized bear and put on a stalk. The shot was about 230 yards from a steady rest and I aimed right on the shoulder on what I assumed was a broadside bear. At the shot the bear tumbled down hill out of sight. My guide was watching through binocs and thought it might have been quartering to a little. We found a piece of shoulder bone and followed a blood trail (no bubbles, just bright red) for about 75 yards before it petered out. We searched for a couple of hours with no luck and finally spotted the bear in some alders. We couldn't be sure it was the same bear and it moved off into the alders. We went over and found some sign. It was indeed the same bear and it didn't look too awfully worse for the wear. That burned in my gut all year. I put the bullet right where I had aimed. I just aimed at the wrong spot.

The next year back in Alberta again I shot one broadside at about 80 yards. I held mid way up and a couple of inches behind the shoulder. After the 30 minute wait we found it stone dead about 75 yards away. My second bear was quartering to in thick cover and I broke the shoulder on that one on the way into the chest. He was DRT.

Bears more closely resemble a human on all fours than they do a deer or elk. Put a bullet where their lungs are and they will die. Put one in the guts and you might have an exciting track job through thick alders like we had on my friend's bear the first year. About 3 hours after the shot the guide spotted the bear still very much alive at 10 yards. My friend finished it off as I filmed over his shoulder. That was pretty crazy for a midwestern guy. A couple of years before that up in Ontario a friend from New York gut shot a bear and had to put a couple more arrows into it in the dark as it tried to come at him after the outfitter tracked it down. His eyes were as big as saucers and he was still shaking when he got back to camp.


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Don't wanna horn anyone up...


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Too funny...



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Guessing you don't have a hair on your ass if don't post a kilt shot...



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Usual story. My one and only was taken with a .45 Colt. Don't hunt things I don't like to eat that much but some bear meat has been excellent.

I would shoot one with anything from.243 or above under ideal conditions. If not ideal then something around 7mm or above.


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Seen 243's work great, just like almost everything else. Seen rodeos with most everything as well.

JJ is the guy to talk statistics with, he's seen some amazing numbers.



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I heard someplace you can even have a rodeo with a .340 Tyrannosaur or some damn thing.

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Originally Posted by moosemike
I heard someplace you can even have a rodeo with a .340 Tyrannosaur or some damn thing.


That would be an Avalanche....

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With all the talk of getting mauled by black bears, maybe I should stop [bleep] with them, even little ones...

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I've killed an azzload of black bears with a .220 swift.....never thought they were any harder to kill than a deer IMHO.


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scenar, what was your favorite bullet and point of aim??


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I used to know a woman that would get blackies in her trash in Fairbanks. She'd go out with a broom and a mouthful of cuss words to get rid of them.


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Originally Posted by ironbender
I used to know a woman that would get blackies in her trash in Fairbanks. She'd go out with a broom and a mouthful of cuss words to get rid of them.


She better read "A Confederate General From Big Sur"... critters get bored with cussing and grow to ignore it after a while... even deep thinkers like frogs.


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Originally Posted by WyoCoyoteHunter
scenar, what was your favorite bullet and point of aim??


I've killed them with just about every bullet there is. Most of them have been shot through the lungs, broadside. The last bear I shot was my biggest, and it was taken with one shot facing me at a slight angle around 300 yards with a .260 and one 130gr Berger VLD. I recovered it near the hip socket on the right side. He ran less than 20 yards after the hit.


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Originally Posted by scenarshooter
I've killed an azzload of black bears with a .220 swift.....never thought they were any harder to kill than a deer IMHO.





55 grain Hornady?


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Originally Posted by ingwe
Originally Posted by scenarshooter
I've killed an azzload of black bears with a .220 swift.....never thought they were any harder to kill than a deer IMHO.





55 grain Hornady?


Most of them. Used a few 60's also, hollow point, and spire. Sierra's 63, Barnes 60gr, Nosler's 55 BT.


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I just used a couple Sierra 63SMPs on pigs......they worked great. Gonna give the Nosler 60 NBT a try at pigs in a week or so down in Tejas. Head shots with a .223ai... Im pretty confident that anything will work.


Used a bunch of Hornady 60 gr. SP back in the day on deer and antelope.


Thanks Pat.

Last edited by ingwe; 02/27/16.

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Scenar, Thanks for the info..

ingwe,you headed back south again?? Have a good one that sure is fun.. Did you bring any pork home with you?? We brought both home and had them processed here.. My gal just loves pork.. I like it, but not like she does..


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Originally Posted by scenarshooter
I've killed an azzload of black bears with a .220 swift.....never thought they were any harder to kill than a deer IMHO.


Frank Glaser, "Alaska's Wolf Man" said the Swift killed everything faster than any other cartridge he used and that was with the bullets available prior to 1965... his only exception was brown bears.


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FWIW an acquaintance of mine who lived for many years in northern BC killed everything he hunted with his 220 Swift, including a lot of moose, elk and bears. 'Course he was the fellow I've mentioned who roped and hog tied a swimming caribou bull, pulled it into his river boat and brought it home alive and whole. If you got what it takes... laugh Like most here, I suspect that Scenar Shooter does...

I travel more along JJ's path when I hunt bears. I've been in on about 50 black bears including those shot by friends and family with me along. I like large exit holes with a better chance of leaking blood for soft footed animals difficult to track on moss and forest duff, like bears. That's extra true when I'm not the shooter and I am not 100% confident in the shooter. OTOH I have one friend I happily hunt black bears with when he uses his 22-250. He killed a nice black bear with that one day with me along, one shot. I carry my 30-06 with 180 grain Swift A-frames in it.

Overall, IME I've come to the conclusion that black bears are NOT particularly tenacious of life, but are often hard to find after a fatal hit. IMO they are generally about like deer in how easy they are to kill with a decent hit. Exceptions are exceptions.

A ton of overkill beats an ounce of underkill.






Last edited by Okanagan; 02/28/16. Reason: after thots
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I've only been in on one goat roping with black bears and it involved a 375H&H, a 5 1/2' bear and a guy that couldn't shoot the 375H&H worth a damn.

Right good time


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Originally Posted by WyoCoyoteHunter
Scenar, Thanks for the info..

ingwe,you headed back south again?? Have a good one that sure is fun.. Did you bring any pork home with you?? We brought both home and had them processed here.. My gal just loves pork.. I like it, but not like she does..



Yep Im headed back and yep I brought home pork. It is the best Ive had...even the fat is good!


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Originally Posted by Steelhead
I've only been in on one goat roping with black bears and it involved a 375H&H, a 5 1/2' bear and a guy that couldn't shoot the 375H&H worth a damn.

Right good time



Same here, only one, also a small bear, hit around the edges with a .44 and hard cast bullets. turned into a 2 hour run-n-gun.


"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Originally Posted by WyoCoyoteHunter
Scenar, Thanks for the info..

ingwe,you headed back south again?? Have a good one that sure is fun.. Did you bring any pork home with you?? We brought both home and had them processed here.. My gal just loves pork.. I like it, but not like she does..

Funny schitt there.


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Does size matter? According to the Pa. Game Commission press release, of the 3748 bears killed in Pa. last fall, 68 of the them weighed over 500 lbs. The two heaviest both had an estimated live weight of 713 lbs.

It seems to me that a bear that big has a lot of fat and that the comments from JJ HACK would doubly apply to a bear that heavy. Yes, no, maybe?

Dale


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Are black bears hard to kill..... Nope.

Like jerrygoat states, there vitals are smaller than anticipated, that has lead to not the best of vital hits in my experience.

Another thing with bears is the layer of blubber they have in the fall sometimes will close off exit wounds to an extent also. That can make trailing a dead bear a chore at times grin

I have not killed no where near the bears Ralph Young has or have seen killed. I do know they die very well with a good ol'brain pan hit 'my favorite' or the ol' fashioned heart/lung shot with just about any caliber that you shoot deer with cool


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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by ironbender
I used to know a woman that would get blackies in her trash in Fairbanks. She'd go out with a broom and a mouthful of cuss words to get rid of them.


She better read "A Confederate General From Big Sur"... critters get bored with cussing and grow to ignore it after a while... even deep thinkers like frogs.

I believe there were less-defended trash cans available.


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A lot of the bears in downeast N.C. are hunted with dogs,the hunters usually follow them into some of the thickest brushpiles you have ever seen . Most are shot at touch me distances with 44mags or 45/70's One was killed within 5 miles of my place that scaled 495lbs.


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