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Originally Posted by jmo1754
Is it bad idea to dry to break a bull elk down by shooting the shoulders?



If the elk is located more than 3 miles from the road, it would be a VERY BAD idea! crazy

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So what does DRT mean? If it means dead right there or immediate death how can there be a viable CNS system? If it means down right there than a leg hold trap would suffice?


To explain some more nervous tissue anatomy. There is the autonomic nervous system. It is the bodies rheostat and controller of organ function. This system is divided with the sympathetic and parasympathetic branches. The sympathetic is fight or flight,the para sympathetic is rest and digest.Not all of this system is routed through the body via the spine. There is a cranial nervous system namely the Vagus nerve that is wired into all of the organ systems. The word vagus means to wander I.e. Vagabond.Just like on any construction sight when the backhoe shows up plumbers electrtions and phone guys are all wanting to route their stuff in the ditch that is dug. This is also true in mammals, there will be the nerve ,artery ,and vein traveling together in a bundle.Generally the thicker the artery the more nervous tissue that is "wrapped" up with it.

Trauma to the peripheral nervous system will back feed through the autonomic nervous system and cause a CNS shutdown and death due to shock.
When I was in the army my job was an armor crewman. We had two different types of projectiles in our anti tank arsenal. One was a heat round one a sabot. The heat round was a frangeble type round that exploded out side the target on the surface and relied on fragments of the inside of the tank being shot to ricochet around and kill the crewman. The sabot relied on penetrating the tank and in essence "sucking" the crew out the exit hole. Now envision the thoracic cavity of the elk you are shooting as the Tank. One must get enough fragments bombarding the cavity to send sufficient traumatic signals to the brain or have enough suction out the cavity to cause enough trauma. This require bullet velocity exiting the thorax and integrity of the thorax. I.e. Punctering the diaphragm will cause the integrity of the thorax to collapse. Kind of like if the tank you shot with a sabot had all of the hatches open then you would not expect to suck the crewmembers out of the sabots exit hole. So that is why a thorax hit will give a variations of response when it come to behavior of the elk.
Now the shoulder shot.....ever heard of between a rock and a hard place? This bundle of nerves "brachial plexus" lays between the shoulder and the rib cage. That is why the observed CNS shutdown with this shot is both consistent and repeatable. The landmark used to pick point of aim is also easily communicated and understood to most. I.e. Lower half of chest directly above front leg. This landmark is also where the epicenter of the lung field lays further inside the thorax. For me personally using this aiming point has helped me harvest quicker and have less shots enter the abdomen. Certainly anticipating puncturing and smashing bone limits my choice of bullet construction and caliber. Common sense is also needed...the shot needs to be fairly broadside to work the best.I hope this helps.......your friend ANUS.


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Originally Posted by 8mmwapiti
Originally Posted by jmo1754
Is it bad idea to dry to break a bull elk down by shooting the shoulders?



If the elk is located more than 3 miles from the road, it would be a VERY BAD idea! crazy


JMHO, and YMMV, I'd like the animal dead as quickly as possible without tracking into the next geographical region.

If I think the animal may make it into an area that is going to be especially challenging to get it out of, I'll take a shoulder out IF the bullet in the barrel is suited to do so.

"Challenging" can be from the terrain, the weather, distance, or other access to the animal when down. It's that split decision you make when the shot presents itself.

I'd rather not risk a loss of blood shot meat, and would prefer take the lungs/heart/CNS if possible. But, I'll take what is presented and make a decision.

Like any decision it has merits, and possible consequences for you and the animal.

Bad idea? Not to me, if you are equipped to deal with the results of your decision.

Last edited by AH64guy; 02/05/16.
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Please, CNS hits often don't result in immediate death -- a follow-up shot that results in bleeding is needed. And often times a non-CNS shot results in the animal dropping on the spot and then dying from the shot if it hit heart or lungs.

Anyone arguing this can't have much experience with game shots.

And even after looking up the definition of "distal", I can't understand what it means in the context of shooting game.

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Another point I present to consider is the ciculatory system and the digestive anatomy of the ruminant. The circulatory system has a pump operated component i.e. blood. It also has a passive one lymphatics. The lymph system will take up extracellular fluids and return them back to the pump. (Blood stream). When tissues are traumatized leakage will occur that will be picked up in the lymph returned to the blood and then pumped through the body. If a bowel is ruptured a bacteria or infiltration of bowel contents will occur. Elk are ruminant so they have a lot of bacteria present very high up in the digestive system. I haven even seen regurgitation of ruminant fluid inside the chest cavity via a severed esophogus. Anyways the longer an animal lives after an bowel integrity loss the greater the chance of bacteria pentrating all of the animals tissues. This can effect the whole animals wholesomeness. As in shelf life, safety and flavor. It is my belief the loss of shoulder meat is less than the negative effect upon the whole carcass if death is delayed.


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Distal means away. So I am saying a lung shot away from the shoulder puts the point of aim closer to the abdomen. Ideally a pristine harvest in my mind would be bleeding out, minimal exertion, with no compromise of bowel. Finding the carcass immediately is also a good deal for quality.

Last edited by Angus1895; 02/05/16.

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Putting them on the ground 'right now' is smarter than any other option... 70% of the elk kills I'm on are archery so I know the difference and how to track. Start skinning in 5 minutes or after waiting and tracking for an hour or more, if you have a gun put them on the ground.

It's killing, not petting and not that complicated.

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They certainly don't go far if the heart is taken out.

There are too many variables to state definitively that's the shoulder shot a good idea, or not. It's one viable alternative. My bull this year was a shoulder shot, dropped on the shot. Required a follow-up. Previous two were heart/lung shots and while they traveled a little bit (15 and 50 yds), they were actually dead sooner.

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Amazing how folks can kill thigns with arrows ahd have to trail them and still turn out fine... LOL


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[img]https://wildcountryphotos.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/elk-anatomy-with-arrows.jpg?w=490[/img]

Maybe pictures will help.

If you put a bullet into the area shown on the circulatory system, that elk will not go far. If you get the aorta as it comes out of the top of the heart you get DRT. No blood pressure to run anything.

If you try for the shoulder joint where the dense heavy ball at the end of the humerus is you need a very heavy bullet to get through from one side to and through the other. Doing that you get a front lung hit, at least with bone fragments and a pass through with the bullet. Deadly, but messes up a lot of meat. Have done that once with .338 mag and 250 gr Swift A-Frame. Not a shot I would prefer to take but for the circumstances at the time. He still kind of half jumped anyway, but both shoulders collapsed. Had he been on the edge of a cliff, he might have made enough movement to go off the edge. Would not have made it over a fence, though.



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Originally Posted by rost495
Amazing how folks can kill thigns with arrows ahd have to trail them and still turn out fine... LOL


I take it you haven't been on any elk rodeos and/or successful hunts, either archery or rifle, the farther an elk can get the farther from 'fine' also.

The answer to the question is put them on the ground if gun hunting, go over and start processing immediate.

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How many hunters actually necropsy (like autopsy) as they field dress and cut up for transport? There is a lot to be learned about both anatomy and the effect of your shot if you follow it through the elk and see what it did and how it performed. Takes the guesswork out of it. An inch or two in one direction or another can make a difference in what was hit inside. If the aorta versus just double lungs the instantaneous effect can be significantly different. Angus is trying to explain this.

Angus, are you a veterinarian or animal physiologist or something? A person has to have a medical or biological background to keep up with your discussion.

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Find the point of the elbow. Aim straight above it about 1/4 of the way up and you take out the heart. If you're a little high, you get the lungs.


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I can't recall ever being unhappy that an elk went almost no where after some portion of the running gear was taken out.

I hit a 6x6 at not far from 500 yards one time, quartering on,with a 180 NPT from the 300 Win Mag. He collapsed like he'd been dynamited.




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Originally Posted by 8mmwapiti



If the elk is located more than 3 miles from the road, it would be a VERY BAD idea! crazy



Depends, is the elk running towards the truck or away from the truck?....................


Casey


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Originally Posted by Jaguar
How many hunters actually necropsy (like autopsy) as they field dress and cut up for transport?



I almost always do a "bullet necropsy".......on clients critters too.


Casey


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I like it when they fall over like a sheet of plywood.

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Originally Posted by alpinecrick
Originally Posted by 8mmwapiti



If the elk is located more than 3 miles from the road, it would be a VERY BAD idea! crazy



Depends, is the elk running towards the truck or away from the truck?....................


Casey
An elk will run toward the truck as often as Hillary tells the truth.


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This is why I try to avoid shoulders, if I have a choice. This elk made it about 5 feet, which is about as far as a fair number of double lunged critters go. Both front shoulders had all kinds of NASTY, GRITTY bone marrow all over them. I cut way more of it away than I prefer to.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

The heart is my favorite part of the critter too. Bums me out when I blow it up like this.

Some double lungers will go 30 or so yards before crashing, and an occasional one will make it 100 yards, but to me it's no big deal to find them in normal Rocky Mountain elk country. In Roosevelt country maybe things are different.

This double lunged stag went straight the [bleep] down. I do like a frangible bullet for this work though, as the TSX type just haven't killed critters nearly as quickly IME, whether through the shoulders or behind them.
[Linked Image]

When I mean double lunged, I mean TIGHT behind the shoulder which can get the heart and part of the offside shoulder too depending on angle...Shots several inches behind the shoulder usually do end up in a 100+ yards run..



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T Inman what bullet/cartridge was it that made the mess?




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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