Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Bad idea

If the elk is in the open away from timber I will shoot for the lungs. In the timber,or on the edge of a "hell hole" shoulder shot. I usually hunt alone and the last thing I need is a rodeo or long tracking job to some nasty ravine with a bull packed into it.
I hadn't had one of those rodeos for years until this year when I shoulder shot one with too soft a bullet. But that's another story. BTW I don't like shoulder meat that much anyway.

Lefty C

200 accubond out of a .340 WBY. Range was 300+/- yards.

I like elk to drop ASAP, but will gladly take an occasional 100 yard runner to avoid this kind of mess.

That's assuming it is not right next to a fence of abyss. In those situations I have consciously broke shoulders.

Mmm.....I think that result was from a lot of velocity,and a bullet not up to 340 Weatherby velocity. Sort of understandable....have not used that combo but have seen the 338 and 340 work plenty with 210-225 NPT,and heavier bonded but without that carnage, and dead stuff.About those distances ,too.

There is this middle ground between the explosive nature of some bullets in fast magnums, and the hard, deep penetration of an X that may suit,and still work to your liking on the lung shots.

On the subject of shoulder meat loss I've seen all kinds of strange things. Usually if you go middle high double lung you will get one or both shoulders through some meat, cut out the jellied part and move on.

My dad and his friend had cow tags, dad and I went out in the morning and he shot his cow in the neck with my 338 DRT. I took Wayne out that evening and he shot a cow with my 338, double lunged through shoulder meat at 40 yds, she walked off and died in sight. Weird thing was there was cud in the jellied bloodshot meat, a bunch of it.

Another cow hunt with a friend also using my 338. He shot a cow at about 180 in the junipers. She ran off, we found her about 80 yds away, low double lunged not hitting the shoulders. When I skinned her both shoulders were pink from crazed bruising, like spider webs. I don't butcher other people's elk anymore so when we dropped it of to a processor I know, he asked, what the hell happened to those shoulders. All I can figure is she hit the ground hard on her shoulders a couple times in her death run.

Meat loss in most any case is not as bad as a picture shows once cleaned up.

Kent

Yep I am a large animal veterinarian. If I knew how to use photobucket a picture would be worth a thousand words. Perhaps this fall or if I get down to a cattle operation this spring I could take some photos of some calves and some one else good post some. For me and I repeat my self ....due to the rumen as in the big fermentation vat elk have the diaphragm....the end of the lung field is further towards the animals nose than one would think. The lung field is in negative pressure so the diaphragm will curve inward slightly so there is even less lung area towards the center of the animal. By moving my point of aim foreword towards the head....has helped my harvest events dramatically.If you have any dairy men or even access to a horse get a stethoscope......try to find the heart......left side of the animal. The loudest noise will be DIRECTLY underneath the front leg on most animals.

For meat/ quarter clean up......get two or three large coolers....big enough to hold the whole quarter submerged. Add cold water and a quart or so of white vinegar. Let soak. After a while transfer it to a clean one. Dump out the dirty one and start fresh. Keep rotating like this so the quarters get three soakings. Rub and spray while in the vinegar solution. It lifts an inordinate amount of crap out.....especially hair.

Your pal ANUS.

Jaguar.....the photo of just the lung field in my mind looks closer to what I envision. The photo showing the diaphragm looks too far back as I believe.

KRP man I wish that is how they are built. The scapula is no where near the point of aim I use! I likely directly above the front leg as visible on the bottom of the animal....lower half of chest. I believe the photo shows the scapula to close to the animals head. IMO.

Yep that's why I put the other picture in, here's the same picture without the bones.

Mostly folks need to see that the lower and farther back in the armpit, the closer to the gut and a rodeo.

Jaguar.....the photo of just the lung field in my mind looks closer to what I envision. The photo showing the diaphragm looks too far back as I believe.

KRP man I wish that is how they are built. The scapula is no where near the point of aim I use! I likely directly above the front leg as visible on the bottom of the animal....lower half of chest. I believe the photo shows the scapula to close to the animals head. IMO.

Kip look at the photograph not the artists rendition. The peak of the back above the front leg. Where it curves or radius eps up. We know the spine is essentially straight. I believe that radius is the distal ( away from the humerus) radius of the scapula. Where the cartilaginous wing is at.

Like this one or close enough?

Follow the leg up to just above center and pull the trigger...

Kent

KRP. That is what I advocate! However I think the artist must have seen it that way also! Therefore he or she must have moved some bone conviently out of the way! LOL.

Very possible, and I know you have a lot of experience here...I may have to try the 210-225 partition at some point. That 200 accubond stayed together and was against the skin on the far side, like usual. I haven't weighed it, but it mushroomed like it should have. There wasn't too much bloodshotness with that elk, though there was some. It was bone fragments and marrow that really screwed up that particular shoulder.

I wasn't too impressed with a TSX out of my 6.5x55 swede this last year on a whitetail buck. I accidentally hit the shoulder and DESTROYED it too. The only difference was, it took another 10 or so seconds for him to die, even after I hit him a second time. Small sample, but it left a bad impression.

Where that image originally appeared there was actually a notation that the bones had been moved forward to better illustrate the soft tissue, and that the reader should take that into account.

Angus, I think the diaphragm in that rendition is drawn where it joins the inside of the ribs, rather than as it sits in the center of the chest/abdomen. Seems like I am always reaching further in around the edges to cut it free than where I can see it in the center above the intestines. There is also the effect of gravity and rumen pressure on an animal when it is whole and alive and standing, so an artist rendition drawn from a dead animal that is probably lying on its side may require artistic license and a bit of interpretation.

A general observation, one thing on the skeletal illustrations, they do correctly show that the front leg is not a vertical column, but in fact the shoulder joint is well forward of the radus/ulna that make up the lower front leg below the lower line of the chest. That of course is when the elk is standing on the leg and the lower leg is vertical. So to hit the actual shoulder joint, you are shooting well forward of the rear point of the elbow joint. If you never disjoint an animal and bone it, you may assume the leg bones form a vertical column and misinterpret the location of the upper leg bone (humerus) and actual position of the scapula (shoulder blade).

What is the OP's definition of shoulder? It has become obvious to me that the definition is not the same to everyone on this thread. My definition is the bones the muscle tissue/meat and the the skin that covers this hole portion of the elk.

After skinning an elk if you lift the front leg and using a knife the "shoulder can be removed from the rib cage without the need to cut any bones. This is a large piece of a front quarter. And the meat of it's aft portion covers a significant portion of the lungs. Quite significant at some angels.

The pictures show an elk standing still, on flat ground, with no obstruction such as brush and trees. If I waited for that kind of conditions before shooting of the 30 or so elk that I have taken I would have maybe 1. I can only remember one within those conditions.

But I have for the most part hunted elk in the National forests of the Bitteroot mountains of Idaho.

I try not to damage to much meat. I try not to beak the bone in the shoulder. But "the best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry"

But then I am sure that I am not the best shooter on the internet.

8mmwapiti

"[b]What is the OP's definition of shoulder? It has become obvious to me that the definition is not the same to everyone on this thread."[/b]

^^^^
My point in wanting pictures. "Shoulder" is different things to different people. Your description of a disjointed limb is good, as long as it excludes the lower leg.

Shoulder is a large area describing a part of an animal for location. Shoulder joint , as I see it, is the bones and ligaments around the bone ends that include the scapula and humerus.

But to use Angus' terminology, it is the proximal (inside) part that is important to killing the elk. You have to penetrate to the organs beneath and covered by parts of the shoulder, or exposed better by leg movement, to do a quick job of dispatch. Shooting through the shoulder joints - massive balls of bone - makes a mess of bone fragments and bloodshot, and can go awry if the bullet can't penetrate through to the vitals and didn't send sufficient bone fragments to do the job.

T Inman that bone in your picture looks to me like the humerus. i.e. The front leg. The artists rendition in my opinion has the scapula (what I call the shoulder) a little smaller than rality for the size of the animal. I also believe it is placed to far foreword. However the pictures of the anotomy show the heart directly above the exit of the front leg as it leaves the chest. It also illustrates the length of the spineous ridges of the dorsal (top) of the spinal column. This illustrates the amount of area on the elks upper chest that is not filled with lung tissue. It also shows as krp is noting. Not a much but abdominal organs on the lower chest behind (caudal) to the front leg.

I'm sure you're right...which is why I like the shot TIGHT behind the shoulder. Due to this, I occasionally put the shot right through the shoulder on accident. I wasn't trying to pick a fight with the whole anus thing...I make fun of everyone's handle. Check out what I call half the folks in the 223AI thread

You're correct on my pic being of the humorous too, and the heart being directly behind the front leg, at least on a perfectly broadside shot. I've taken the heart out with a direct broadside shot on accident when the closer front leg is shifted forward. I try not to, but sometimes it just happens.

I think it is not realistic to plan on hitting the bone at any point from the joint at the top of the leg or anywhere along it up until the scapula is reached. Hitting the scapula is known as the high shoulder shot, not just a shoulder shot.

To me, the shoulder joint is the forward most joint. The one about halfway between the joint at the top of the leg and the scapula.

I don't know about elk, but I know from reading the posts of a deer-control shooter (who has shot tens of thousands of deer) that hitting the shoulder but not hitting bone results in a slower kill than hitting just behind the shoulder. His strong advice was to NOT take that shot and stick to behind the shoulder.