Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Question on C.O.L. for .223 for my AR

Does anybody reload the Hornady 55 gr V-Max in .223? I am wondering what your C.O.L is. I am having issues with them not chambering all the time due to the bullet bottoming out and jamming into the rifling. Right now my C.O.L. is 2.200.

Any suggestions?

Seat it until it doesn't touch. Chambers dependign, can have hugely different leads, which means how quick the bullet ogive gets to the rifling.

mark the bullet and keep seating deeper until you are clear.

As long as you are under around 2.250 OAL you'll fit most all mags just fine...

Remember too if you are already at a max load as you seat deeper you decrease case capacity and increase pressure somewhat... if you have to go quiet a bit I'd back off and creep back up again on powder...

That seems like an awfully short throat. What barrel and chamber do you have? 2.250" has worked for me and is what the Hornady manual lists. Measure your brass and make sure it doesn't need to be trimmed.

I would also suggest picking up a OAL gauge so you can set your seating depth based on your chamber and not book values.

if the bullet is jamming in the rifling, its not case length at all. Its an OAL issue.

I am aware of that. I recommended checking the case length just because 2.200" is pretty short to have OAL problems. Unless he is getting rifling marks on the bullet, it's worth a look.

jamming into rifling in his first post says to me there are marks on the bullet, BUT I could be reading it wrong too. I've done that before.

Short leades do make one think about case OAL, although I can't recall ever trimming brass on my match guns. I trimmed it once on first go round and never touched it ever again.

There are rifling marks on the bullet. The brass is trimmed to spec. This is why I am questioning the C.O.L.

The rifle is a Daniel Defense M4A1.

Just sent my varmint barrel back to Rainier arms to have the throat lengthened because those bullets would not allow the bolt to lock.

Picture of the rifling marks on the bullet? Something doesn't sound right, you should have no problem with your current COAL in a 5.56 chamber. If you are certain of your loads, I'd get a OAL gauge and measure the chamber. That or send to DD for inspection.

Part of the problem, we have no clue what chamber it is.....

He says its a DDM4A1 which would mean it has a 5.56 NATO chamber.

I don't do well with assumptions, but you are probably correct and IIRC nato chambers are pretty big...something ain't sounding right...

Supposed to be nato on that model and someone ran a Krieger match reamer instead....

Yes, it is 5.56 NATO chambered. I will try to get pics posted in the next few days.

The bullet can get marked as it feeds from the mag to the chamber and be scored as if engaging riflings. Paint a bullet with a sharpie then hold the rifle downward and drop a loaded OAL 2.20" round into the chamber then close the bolt and slowly eject the round and look for rifling marks concentrically on the bullet. If you see the 4 or 5 scores evenly spaced around the bullet then I guess you have a real short throat. The only 2.20" OAL rounds I use are the Speer 70gr semi roundnose bullets that have a lot of forward swell. The V-maxes are pretty sharp and long tapered.

Can't wait to hear this outcome. Never heard of 2.20 being too short for any 55 grainer. IMO, that rifle gets packed & shipped to DD. Going shorter than 2.20 can be the start of a bunch of other problems. JMHO,
Jim D

What problems on shorter than 2.200? Bearing surface? Or case capacity and those 2 should be obvious to anyone that relaoads? Just curious

The marks you get from chambering do not resemble rifling marks.

just seat to fit the magazine

He is having problems chambering at 2.200". How would seating at 2.260" help?

Hi rost495. Answer to the too short question,
1. Pressure- mostly if near max loads
2. Trouble feeding
3. Yes, bearing surface & capacity
4. Accuracy, because of possible pressure spikes
Jim D

^^^^^This is what he should do to determine if he has a leade problem.

Or he could put a bullet into a slightly pinched fired case so the it is tight enough to stay in place but loose enough to be pushed in as it's pushed into the chamber & lands.

A chamber/leade that will only allow a 2.200" 55 v-Max is pretty unusual.........I suspect he's missing something & that something else is going on. If it's really that short, it's out of spec.

MM

You mean, it is supposed to be a 5.56 Nato chamber. If it really was, you wouldn't have this issue.

Sounds to me like someone screwed up and used a 223 Rem reamer instead of 5.56. I'd be sending it back.

Take a bullet and drop it into the chamber, lightly tap it with a cleaning rod with a flat jag or something screwed in, (just so the bullet doesn't fall out when you turn it upside down). Insert the rod into the muzzle carefully until it touches the bullet, mark rod with a sharpie at the edge of the muzzle.

Punch bullet out, insert bolt and carrier, drop rod back into muzzle till it bottoms out on the bolt, mark rod at muzzle, measure in between lines and that will be your COAL.

If it's longer than 2.260, it won't fit into a magazine and won't be a problem (have yet to see one throated that short). If it is shorter, then get on the phone with DD as it ain't supposed to be like that.

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm really scratching my head right now. I asked my buddy to bring over his DB chambered in 5.56 to see how his gun chambered with these reloads. Same issue, sometimes the bolt doesn't fully close and if it does close, its next to impossible to eject the unfired round. The marks I am seeing on the bullet may not be rifling marks but marks from the lugs. I have checked all the brass with a case gauge and they drop right in. I purchased this brass fully processed but I do double check it with my gauge. If it is happening in both guns I assume it is something I am doing wrong. What am I doing wrong???

I am trying to upload some pics of the bullets but my internet is giving me troubles. Phone company is coming out tomorrow so hopefully tomorrow night I can get the pics up.

If it won't chamber in 2 different guns, I'd be betting on the brass itself as I doubt 2 guns would both have a short throat.

Either the case diameter above the rim or they may have pushed the shoulder too far forward during sizing w/o pushing it back to within headspace limits, hence the headspace is too long.

MM

That's what I thought those marks would be. Run the cases that don't chamber through a FL sizing die setup for your rifle. Seat the bullets at 2.250 and see if they chamber. If I got surplus processed beads, I would still run it through my die to make sure. You can't trust someone else's work.

If the shoulder was set to far forward wouldn't the brass not set properly into my case gauge?

Don't know what your case gage us measuring.......I check heaspace with a headspace gauge & can actually measure (in .001") difference from a new case or any fired case or any resized case & compare that directly to SAMMI headspace min to max.

New brass is usually about .003" below minimum heaspace chamber spec so as to chamber in any gun that is in spec.

On an AR, I will size my brass back to .002-.003" below what is was after firing in any given gun to be used in that same gun again, or if to be used in just any old AR, not necessarily the one it was fired in, I'll size it to .002-.003" below minimum chamber specs or back to about what original new factory brass is.

You need some actual measurements to compare to factory brass.

MM

Those marks are from chambering, not from contacting the rifling, as someone in this thread already mentioned. Do you know where the rifling actually contacts the bullet?

You have a brass sizing problem, and need to size the brass to fit your chamber. Difficult ejection of live rounds in an AR is almost always a brass issue; that's the first thing to check when you encounter this.

Thanks guys! I will have to do some homework on other ways to check my brass instead of the case gauge I have pictured as it must not be working correctly.

if factory shoots fine in your rifle, then set your dies up like the manufacturer recommends and you should have no problem. Some times you might even want to call the die manufacturer as they have "seen it all".

To set your dies up correctly you really need a set of bump gauges. Measure a factory case that was fired from that rifle, then set your dies so that you are bumping the shoulder back .002"-.004". Any more than that is over working the brass and any less can cause issues in a dirty rifle. Instructions that come with dies are a shot in the dark, you have no way of knowing how much you are sizing your brass without the right tools.

If you don't already have them, all reloaders need a good set of calipers, a set of bump gauges (hornady or sinclair), and a OAL gauge (hornady). Without these tools you are just guessing.

Take a deprimed 308 Win case and slide the neck over the neck of a deprimed fired case from your rifle, place them in a caliper, center the primer pockets over the jaws, tighten the jaws, and wiggle a bit to see what your shortest measurement is. Do the same with the problem brass. You'll most likely find your answer.

You want your sized cases to be .002-.004 under the length of cases fired in your rifle using the above method.

That's not the best way to measure, but works when you don't have the proper tools.

Its a defective barrel. The rifling marks indicate the rifling is totally messed up and won't shoot worth a flip, might even be dangerous.

I've never seen rifling marks so crazy and uneven.

Possibly though a new type of gain twist?


LOL.... I think they've pointed out your real issue though...

Yep, I probably jumped the gun with thinking my COL was the culprit.

Ordered some OAL and headspace gauges. I will report back with the results.

Thanks again to all for walking me through this.

Hey, we all start somewhere... should have seen me 30 plus years ago with a new 300 wtby, and had not read correctly about crimping... ended up with bulged shoulders and could not figure why. LOL.


Hope you get it all figured out. Once you do its not hard at all!

Check your mags. It looks like scratches caused by a sharp corner on the front, inside edge of your magazine.
I've had to smooth up more than one mag with a file.

Or shoot as is, scratches on bullets don't hurt.

I've got a question to clarify something. I'm just now repurchasing some new reloading stuff after a hiatus in shooting/reloading rifles and pistols much other than rimfires.

Since wareagle said I had to have bump gauges I had some sent here and a case length gauge as well.

If I set back the shoulder .003 on cases fired in my 5.56 is there the possibility that they will fit my chamber just fine but maybe stick up just a hair in the Lyman drop in gauge?

Glynn, what you are doing is sizing brass for your rifle, not back to SAAMI specs. The resized case may be longer, but that's because you aren't taking your brass back to factory specs. Sounds like you are doing it right.
FWIW, I can resize brass all my .223 AR barrels with the same die, all the chambers headspace within .0015" of each other.

Here's all you need for measuring the case headspace dimension directly........not a go-no go gauge. Measures directly in that it's zero is the minimum SAAMI headspace dimension for a chamber of that caliber.

Measure a fired case from your gun & that will give you a dimension; set your die (either FL sizer or shoulder bump die) to .002-.004" less & you're are done.

You will generally find that most virgin factory brass will be around .004" below SAAMI headspace minimum so as to fit all rifles.

Most normal chambers will be from around +.002" - to around +.004" from minimum (zero).

RCBS Precision Mic

MM

Ok, I received my Hornady Headspace gauges and OAL gauge. Yes, there is plenty of room from the bullets ogive to the rifling.

As for brass, my fire formed brass is measuring 0.001-0.002 shorter then the fully processed brass I purchased. There is some processed brass that is measuring 0.002 shorter then my fired brass and that brass chambers well.

I'm guessing problem solved. Just because someone sells you fully processed brass ready to load doesn't mean its done right.

Thanks all for the help. I learned a lot and got myself some more handy tools for the bench.

Perfect answer

That is what I use. Whidden Gunworks makes a similar tool in SS. I'd only add that if you obtain a bunch of once-fired brass fired from multiple guns, set the sizer to bump it back to minus 0.005 until it is fired in a chamber of known size.

Yes; -.004" is probably enough, but -.005 is surely safe.

MM

What is the min and max headspace dimension for .223 rem? SAAMI spec

1.4636 - 1.4736"

But you really don't need that actual dimension to use the tool.

MM

My fired brass is measuring 1.4635 with the gauge. What would be the ideal length to set it back to? 1.4605?

Yes, that's plenty.

Yes, that's .003", so should be just right for a semi-auto.

Looks like you have a chamber on the small (short) side which was probably a big part of your original problem.

MM

Whats odd about it is that both my DDM4A1 and my buddies DB are on the short side. His DB is actually 0.002 shorter then mine. Do you think that is normal?

Not based on the ones I've seen.

I have 4 AR's & all are from +.002 to +.003" above minimum.........but that's exactly why virgin ammo & brass is typically .003-004" below minimum.

As long as you are aware of it & load accordingly, it's actually a good thing to a point, as the brass stretches less on the 1st firing than compared to a gun with, say a +.005 headspace dimension.

MM