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The Deer Hunter's Guide by Francis Sell

At the recommendation of one of the campers, I recently purchased a copy of The Deer Hunter's Guide by Francis Sell. It has been an interesting read in that it shows a lot of where deer hunting was in the early Sixties.

Most writers have their favorite firearm and like to wear it on their sleeve. Jack O'Connor had his 270. The Benoits had their pump guns. Sell's was interesting: a 6.5X55 full-stocked bolt gun that he seemed to use in all situations except those requiring the longest shots.

Previously, I've asked about the full or Mannlicher style of stock -- it's benefits and uses. The response I got back was filled with a lot of "They look cool." A few folks that really used them for their intended purpose said that the full stock is a mountain rifle, and that one uses it on steep slopes to support their ascent.

In reading the book, I saw no mention of this use. The only reasons Sell gave were somewhat indirect. At one point, he was discussing the need for a shorter barrel and that the full stock was more elegant-- a standard sporter stock with a shorter barrel looked like a sawed-off shotgun. In another instance he was discussing rifle weight and balance and was related a story of a hunting companion that customized his rifle to such an extent that it became too light to effectively make a steady shot.

I just thought I'd ask you all what you thought of this. Does a Mannlicher stock do a better job of balancing a rifle with a short barrel?


BTW: in the interim, since my last thread asking about Mannlicher stocks, I have discovered another potential reason for them. Angus, #3 son, uses his M44 Mosin Nagant for close-in deer hunting, and he reports that the full stock keeps his hands warmer, since he has more wood to grasp instead of metal.

I think the beauty/utility of a full-stocked rifle lies in the eyes of the beholder. If it looks good/feels good to you then that's all that matters. Personally I don't ascribe any benefit either way to one, except that it leaves one open to to increased deletrious effects of wood movement on the barrel due to the fact that there's a lot more wood out there that can move.

I have been enamored of full length stocks on original Mannlicher-Schoenauers ever since I bought my first one 35 years ago. Other imitators, not so much, especially amateur attempts. M-S's achieved a subtle gracefulness (due mainly to the slight reverse camber of the stock line from floor plate to tip) that is lost to most imitators. Therein lies the root of my general disdain for most full length stocked rifles that come down the pike.

They look cool. I had a CZ 550FS in 6.5 swede, still have a cz 452 in 22 mag. In regards to the 550FS the wood stayed warped on the left side, it was finicky, the hogback stock kicked like hell and "felt" rather heavy for a shorter bolt gun. As far as balance goes, my Kimber Montanas are/were far better balanced than my FS was. Down the road it went, and I am considering selling the 452FS as well. Balance is a personal thing, did I mention they look cool!

I once has a real Mannlicher-Schoenaur 6.5x54 that some low life in Elko Nevada stole from my pickup truck. Never did find another in decent shape. One day I found a Ruger M77 RSI .308 for sale almost cheap Guy said it was the most inaccurate rifle he ever saw. He wasn't kidding. It had the feel and handling of my stolen M/S so I bought it anyway. Took me two years of tinkering and load work ups to finally get a usable load I could use for hunting. The weird thing is two more of those rifles in .308 showed up again on the cheap. I got them all shooting usable groups. My wife has one as does my stepson. I do the loading for all three. I just like the feel and handling of the rifles. Besides, as one poster has already said, "They look really cool."
Paul B.

shaman,

I've owned several full-stocked rifles, including a 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine, and in my experience they do help balance a short-barreled rifle, especially for offhand shooting. The extra wood out front doesn't add all that much weight, but it's in the right place to steady a short rifle down.

I knew Francis and first met him when I was a very gunny teenager. He was from Coos Bay, down on the southern Oregon coast.

Good guy, really nice to a kid, which speaks volumes about the man. I liked him a lot and even had the pleasure of hunting ducks and geese with him once.

I saw, but did not have the opportunity to shoot his mannlicher-stocked Swede. By the way, he was also a great fan of the .25-35 on deer, I would assume that was a lever action.

I shot maybe a half-hundred deer and quite a few elk with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer Carbine in 7X57. The carbine was ver accurate, but it's finest attribute was the incredible handling characteristics. The little gun was, as they say, "An extention of my body." Killed the crap out of stuff and I don't recall ever missing with it, nor ever having to two-shoot.

Blessings,

Steve

PS. Local rumor has it that Frank Sell could neither read nor write and that he dictated articles and books to his schoolteacher wife. I do not know whether this is true or not.

Having said that, he was one hell of a writer.

I'll chime in here as well, I've owned a few full stocked rifles, and while I do like their looks, I found then to balance very well. I've had a Ruger 77 UL and a 1A that I found to be very butt heavy, and hard to steady. Whereas I have a 77RSI that is very well balanced, and points very well for me, and a #1 RSI that I shoot very well offhand. It's an individual thing, but hunting where I do, they suit me very well. I generally hunt either from a blind, where the abbreviated length is very helpful, or stalking through thick stuff, where the lack of length is useful, but the balance really shines on quick shots. In both cases, I've made sure the barrel channel is sealed, to mitigate any warpage that might occur. Once the fore end is stabilized, they can be very accurate. The 77RSI often shoots sub-inch for three at 100, and I have shot one 3 shot group that measured .329 outside edge to outside edge (.250 SAV)but I wouldn't bet the house that I could duplicate it. The #1 RSI is a Roberts that averages 1-1.25", and both are more accurate than I need for typical hunting. Neither have shifted POI once zeroed.

Hope this helps.

Steve;
Good morning to you sir, I'm hoping this finds you and yours doing acceptably well.

Like the OP, I very much enjoyed reading Francis Sell's writing as he struck me as a down to earth kinda chap.

Imagine my surprise one day at work when I was chatting with a co-worker who had the same last name. I asked her, so your husband is from Oregon isn't he? He wouldn't be related to a gun writer would he?

"Oh you mean Uncle Frank?" she replied.

Apparently they were well liked within the family too Steve, which in many ways speaks volumes about folks when I think about it.

As far as Stutzen stocked rifles, I've always had a soft spot for them or at least have for a long, long time.

With apologies to those who've seen this photo dozens of times, this is the 96 Swede that now belongs to our eldest daughter, inherited from her late Grandad.


They do work on local mulie and whitetail bucks, that's for sure and certain.

Thanks for sharing the Frank Sell information sir and all the best to you folks.

Dwayne

Friend Dwayne,

Frank was a peach of a guy and I liked him a lot.

After I graduated from high school, I went to Oregon State University for a couple of years. OSU is in Corvallis and I spent a couple of wonderful weekends visiting with Frank. That's when I had the opportunity to hunt ducks and geese with him.

By the way, one of his shottyguns was a 10-gauge double and he was deadly on geese waaaaaaaay up there.

He was a blacktail deer stalker and that is about as high an honor as I can personally say about a hunter.

My friend, Dwayne, you would have very much liked Frank.

All the best from Karen and me to you and your family,

Steve

PS. Who ever tires of looking at a cool Swede 96 with a full-stock??? Surely not me

This is all very interesting. Frankly, until last year, I didn't know the full stock was anything more than a cosmetic thing. They looked cool.

Until my Deer season was cut short by my Heart Attack
I was really looking forward to hunting with my b'day
present my wife bought me a Lipseys limited run
Ruger Hawkeye RSI Stainless 30-06 Full stock
I sent it to Hired Gun here for Cerakote externals
and Micro-Slick internals and mounted a
Meopta 6x42 with German #4 reticle.
My brother had his saddle maker make me a nice
Leather sling with my name and a Deer and Bear head
on it.
It is as my grand daughter says my "COOL GUN"!
When me and my Son in law took it to the range
last year before my "event" the other guys at the
range all wanted to look at it!
It shot good first time out with the SIL behind it.
It feels good in the hands walking in our THICK
woods.
AMRA

Interesting that Francis Sell and his rifles should arise.

Back in 1985/86, when I was attending grad school in Boston and Bearrr264 was getting his MPP and MC/MPA in Cambridge, he had a running dialog via USPS with Mr. Sell. Mr. Sell had written a piece on a cartridge that he called the 257 Tomcat in the 1984 or 1985 edition of Gun Digest and Dave was very interested in it. I remember Dave sharing his letters with me, all typed with the associated "white-out" corrections, as those were the days when PCs ran on DOS and people stilled used WORD PERFECT and LOTUS 123. In addition to the letters, I recall that Mr. Sell sent Polaroid pictures of the Marlin 336 in 257 Tomcat and the Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55.

The 257 Tomcat appealed to me, so I wrote to Mr. Sell and got some information on it, to supplement what he had sent to Dave.

I have long been a fan of the aesthetics of mannlicher stocked rifles and have owned a bunch of them over the years. At one time, I had three complete sets of Winchester 70 Mannlichers, one set NIB, but money was tight when we had our first company and they went down the road to raise $$ for food and to service the debt. I still have an entire wall of mannlicher stocked rifles above the work bench in my gun room.

S&W E in 30-06 --- Ruger 44 Internatinal
Interarms Mark X in 7x57 --- Ruger 77 RSI in 308
Interarms Mark X in 260 --- Ruger 77 RSI in 260
Remington 7 in 260 --- Ruger 77 RSI in 257 Roberts
Remington 7 in 223 --- Ruger 77 RSI in 25 Souper

Which reminds me that I need to get the step ladder out and dust them!

Full stocks sell boatloads of CZs. Everyone's hoping to win the "wood lottery" one day. I'm holding out to stumble over one in WMR with drool-worthy wood.

I discovered the RSI not too long ago while trolling Gun Broker. I managed to convince myself I don't need one, but this thread has me thinking otherwise. With the shorter barrel, it could be a great way to complexify up the ".308 and go kill stuff" principle.

The Ruger RSI in 7x57 is a lovely balance on many levels.

I love my CZ550FS in 6.5X55, my woods rifle. I hunt mostly heavy woods where 50 yards is a longer shot. Much like grouse hunting, see it shoulder point and shoot. No time to think, it must be automatic. The short full stock does just that, shoulder point shoot. Balance is big part of that, the rifle has to fit like a shot gun. I find the full stock carbines do just that.

I have one of the non-cataloged tang safety 77 RSIs in 7x57, but it is so nice I've never shot it. I like the balance of the long action 77 RSIs better than the short actions. You wouldn't think that the small difference in action length would make a difference, but, for me, the difference is noticeable.

I have never understood the need for a short action vice medium or long action rifles. Must be a looney thing.

I have the first style ruger international full wood in 243 and 308, plus I bought a ruger ultralight the same time in 308, I like them and in the woods they worked good for deer.

It's funny that Francis Sell's articles are mentioned. For some reason his 25/35 and the Woods rifle articles stick out in my head as vivid as yesterday and I was just a lad at the time.

It's likely why I recently bought 150 virgin 25/35 cases and have a shelf full of 117gr RN bullets, but no 25/35.

It's not too late to remedy that.