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...or how sow few cost us so much and provide so little

Nothing like a good long walk with the dog to think things through.

You here about people migrating to Alaska just to sponge off the government. I’m sure most if not everyone knows or is acquainted with at least one family that seems to make most if not all of it’s income from government services and maybe some under the table work for cash. Anecdotally people say maybe we should get rid of the PFD so these people will leave. The real question is, exactly how much do these people cost us. Let’s give it a go. Let’s say there are 5000 families that fall into this category. I don’t think that’s an unrealistic number, if one member of that family should be in the work force, and our work force is say 150000 people, that makes 1/3% of the workforce. Let’s further say each of these families has three school aged children. Let’s look at one of these families costs the state per year, and we’re not even going to look at how much of our government workforce exists to cater to these people:

$20,000 per student $60,000 for three children
$1000/month for food $12,000 food
$1000/month for medical $12,000 medical
$1000/month housing $12,000 housing

and let’s say between domestic violence, dui, drugs, parole violation and/or child protective services one member of this family tangles with the legal system per year and between police, prosecutors, defense, counselors and judges one of those encounters is going to cost the state and easy $25,000 per occurrence.

So, that means we’re spending $121,000 per year on these families, or $605,000,000. Yup, over a cool ½ billion on these people, not to mention the $50,000,000 they collected in PFD’s last year.

So, while the $1.3 billion PFD payout won’t bridge the budget gab, if doing away with it would cut over ½ billion in social services, if not double that, perhaps we really need to look into how much the PFD really costs us. Not to mention to federal government takes in a significant chunk of the PFD in income taxes.

I’ll gladly give up ~$1000-1500 after federal income taxes, to shave a billion off state spending.

Last edited by 458 Lott; 02/08/16.
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How will you ensure that those people actually leave?


If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli

American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
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If people who have not a darn thing manage to migrate from South America, SE Asia, Africa, the Middle East etc, then I'm sure when the AK pastures are no longer green with PFD $'s, our near do wells will manage to find the where with all to head south.

As it is we're going to be looking at a migration of professionals that has taken since the mid 80's to build up the state should the government get stupid on taxes combined with a souring economy.

The state should be looking at doing what it can to retain the hard working people of the state and culling those that won't, but I fear they'll take the opposite tact.

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I highly doubt anyone moved to alaska because of the PFD.

But if getting rid of it would be a driving force for many to leave please take it. But I doubt anyone would leave because of such...

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I have no doubt that the PFD paid a major role in attracting immigrants to Alaska......along with minimal taxes and a lucrative social services program......I'm surrounded by em!

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If giving up the PFD would drive away a meaningful number of freeloader's, I'd give up mine in a heartbeat! We likely have the most ample public bosom in the entire country, and it needs to dry up. In addition to immigrants, and low life trash that move up from the states, there are more than a few very well off folks who suckle. They have their personal wealth hidden in corporations, LLC's, etc...and then have their kids enrolled in things like Denali Kid Care, and then go play on their(I mean their companies blush) boats, snow machines, wheelers.. They are some of the lowest of the lowlifes, IMO.

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In 2014 670,000 applications were deemed valid and paid @ $1884 for a total dividend payout of $1.2 billion dollars.

http://pfd.alaska.gov/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=MXgVzMjdc_o%3d&tabid=506&portalid=6&mid=6428

I certainly think it would be worthwhile to reduce the amount significantly and apply the savings to education. (I'm thinking it might be useful on more than one level to do that. In the unorganized areas it would give everyone some direct buy-in. Urban businesses that are already taxed significantly would undoubtedly feel a significant pinch in annual dividend sales and might appreciate a break on school tax levies, not to mention residential tax payers.)

I would certainly support the idea of cutting the PFD back significantly. I don't believe it would be an easy sell to rural folks who already have a hard time making ends meet. IF - if there was some way to take advantage of the lower fuel prices common in many parts right now, and pass those lower costs on to the rural areas in exchange for lost or reduced dividends, I think that might be palatable. It makes no sense to keep soaking the small rural places just because people will pay whatever the dealers can get.



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Papa Pilgrim and the wolverine clan (Alaska Bush people) are certainly not the only ones who have come to Alaska lured by PFD's. I've known a fair number of families where the dad did cash under the table jobs, WIC paid for their food, Denali kid care covered medical, they were collecting thousands from their kids being enrolled in home school programs and they'd use their PFD's for annual trips to Hawaii.

I'm all for helping those who can't help themselves, but I'd venture to guess the majority of the folks taking public services won't help themselves rather than can't help themselves.

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Originally Posted by 458 Lott
Papa Pilgrim and the wolverine clan (Alaska Bush people) are certainly not the only ones who have come to Alaska lured by PFD's. I've known a fair number of families where the dad did cash under the table jobs, WIC paid for their food, Denali kid care covered medical, they were collecting thousands from their kids being enrolled in home school programs and they'd use their PFD's for annual trips to Hawaii.

I'm all for helping those who can't help themselves, but I'd venture to guess the majority of the folks taking public services won't help themselves rather than can't help themselves.


Amen!

Jeff

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Originally Posted by akjeff
Originally Posted by 458 Lott
Papa Pilgrim and the wolverine clan (Alaska Bush people) are certainly not the only ones who have come to Alaska lured by PFD's. I've known a fair number of families where the dad did cash under the table jobs, WIC paid for their food, Denali kid care covered medical, they were collecting thousands from their kids being enrolled in home school programs and they'd use their PFD's for annual trips to Hawaii.

I'm all for helping those who can't help themselves, but I'd venture to guess the majority of the folks taking public services won't help themselves rather than can't help themselves.


Amen!

Jeff


+ditto

It almost sounds like there are three Alaskas in a sense. There are the urban folks (of all types) who can and will find productive means of sustenance. Then there are those who live essentially where they and their families have been born for countless generations - and, by and large, they work and struggle to survive - with the usual percentage that one finds anywhere who aren't worth their weight in dung as far their contribution to staying alive goes. And then there's a somewhat nebulous bunch who apparently live some sort of contrived form of "off the grid" living- but they seem to think "off the grid" means monthly Vegas checks is part of the game. I don't really know or understand much about this latter apparent bunch, but it sounds like some do, and I don't like the sound of it.

Last edited by Klikitarik; 02/10/16.

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Originally Posted by Klikitarik

Originally Posted by akjeff
Originally Posted by 458 Lott
Papa Pilgrim and the wolverine clan (Alaska Bush people) are certainly not the only ones who have come to Alaska lured by PFD's. I've known a fair number of families where the dad did cash under the table jobs, WIC paid for their food, Denali kid care covered medical, they were collecting thousands from their kids being enrolled in home school programs and they'd use their PFD's for annual trips to Hawaii.

I'm all for helping those who can't help themselves, but I'd venture to guess the majority of the folks taking public services won't help themselves rather than can't help themselves.


Amen!

Jeff


+ditto

It almost sound like there are there Alaskas in a sense. There are the urban folks (of all types) who can and will find productive means of sustenance. Then there are those who live essentially where they and their families have been born for countless generations - and, by and large, they work and struggle to survive - with the usual percentage that one finds anywhere who aren't worth their weight in dung as far their contribution to staying alive goes. And then there's a somewhat nebulous bunch who apparently live some sort of contrived form of "off the grid" living- but they seem to think "off the grid" means monthly Vegas checks is part of the game. I don't really know or understand much about this latter apparent bunch, but it sounds like some do, and I don't like the sound of it.


It is a tough nut to crack when the question turns to the relative value of an individual in question versus a bag of dung...


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Recall the "Parable of the Talents"......


I've got no issue whatsoever with helping the poor. My definition of poor, however, differs from some in that I think it relates to the "talents" we use. I have no time and less compassion for those who won't try. But I get a real warm feeling of generosity when I see some arthritic elder who is still dipping their hands into the icy tanks of herring and hefting flopping salmon onto the cutting table so they'll have food to eat in winter. I'll gladly burn a few gallons of gas to get them to their favorite berry patches or drop off a quarter of moose or a caribou. Their perfectly healthy young neighbors whose idea of hunting is reaching in the freezer case and "hunting" Banquet chicken with their SNAP cards.......I wouldn't sell them game meat if it was legal.


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Originally Posted by Klikitarik
Recall the "Parable of the Talents"......


I've got no issue whatsoever with helping the poor. My definition of poor, however, differs from some in that I think it relates to the "talents" we use. I have no time and less compassion for those who won't try. But I get a real warm feeling of generosity when I see some arthritic elder who is still dipping their hands into the icy tanks of herring and hefting flopping salmon onto the cutting table so they'll have food to eat in winter. I'll gladly burn a few gallons of gas to get them to their favorite berry patches or drop off a quarter of moose or a caribou. Their perfectly healthy young neighbors whose idea of hunting is reaching in the freezer case and "hunting" Banquet chicken with their SNAP cards.......I wouldn't sell them game meat if it was legal.


You're a good man Mark. I think real Alaskans whether bush, urban or somewhere in between have the same sentiment. There is no greater feeling than giving fish or game to someone who knows the hard work involved in harvesting the game.

I'm reminded of another saying, well an adaptation of one. Teach a man to fish and he'll feed himself for life. Give a man a fish and he'll be by the next day expecting another one.

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Originally Posted by 458 Lott
... real Alaskans whether bush, urban or somewhere in between have the same sentiment. ....


Absolutely!


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Originally Posted by Klikitarik
Originally Posted by 458 Lott
... real Alaskans whether bush, urban or somewhere in between have the same sentiment. ....


Absolutely!


Klik
PLEASE! Let me know if I can ever help a real Alaskan get to their berrypatch! Or anything similar.
art


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Originally Posted by 458 Lott
If people who have not a darn thing manage to migrate from South America, SE Asia, Africa, the Middle East etc, then I'm sure when the AK pastures are no longer green with PFD $'s, our near do wells will manage to find the where with all to head south.

As it is we're going to be looking at a migration of professionals that has taken since the mid 80's to build up the state should the government get stupid on taxes combined with a souring economy.

The state should be looking at doing what it can to retain the hard working people of the state and culling those that won't, but I fear they'll take the opposite tact.


The middle part of your post is spot on , its being talked about by the companies that actually create wealth , and ignored by the people who spend it. Wife has tried to fill positions that paid six figures in the past with some difficulty , new taxes coupled with astronomical cost of living isn't exactly great incentive for the kinds of people we do want here.

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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Klikitarik
Originally Posted by 458 Lott
... real Alaskans whether bush, urban or somewhere in between have the same sentiment. ....


Absolutely!


Klik
PLEASE! Let me know if I can ever help a real Alaskan get to their berrypatch! Or anything similar.
art


Real bear guides own SuperCubs and know where the best berry-patches are! laugh (Well, the berry patch part anyway. wink )


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Takes one back to the Working people are stupid link


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Originally Posted by 1minute
Takes one back to the Working people are stupid link


People like this woman are the reason the whole country is circling the drain!
And why Bernie sanders is a viable candidate for president....

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Originally Posted by wyoming260
Originally Posted by 1minute
Takes one back to the Working people are stupid link


People like this woman are the reason the whole country is circling the drain!
And why Bernie sanders is a viable candidate for president....




??????????????????????????? Relevance ??????


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