Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters A .577 with Great History - a Rare find

Yup. This is as close as it gets to a gun speaking.

Great find and a fantastic history, but you haven't mentioned how you came about obtaining it.

Phil

Thanks for a great post on a great gun with a good story. It's always goof for a little vicarious thrill reading stuff like this, and it's reassuring to know such a fine gun and piece of history and the gunmaker's art is in good hands now. I had the pleasure of shooting a number of great old BPE doubles a friend of mine had. He was recoil shy and always enlisted me to shoot them because he knew I could give him his best and most accurate gauge of how they were really shooting. He was sharp enough to know to keep loads mild, which he was glad to do because of his own recoil intolerance. Later, he found he had a spur on his shoulder joint, and got it fixed, but that too gave him problems for years. They are VERY interesting and intriguing and just plain "different" to shoot and load for. Thanks again for taking the time to post this for us.

Hello All,

I want to thank you all for your reply and kind words about my post and my rifle. I really appreciate your comments.

A few of you had questions and I will try to answer each in reverse order as asked.

* The rifle was purchased from Lewis Drake & Assoc. as found in an ad from their web page.

* The modern Powder I use for most of my vintage double rifles is AA5744. It ignites well and similates the pressures and velocities of the day. It is also very accurate. If you email AA, they will answer questions about unpublished loading data for cartridges not found in their manual.

* I'm sure the finish of the rifle has been redone at some point in time in its long history of use since being made over 148 years ago in 1868. It was likely re-done by Alex Henry in 1901 when it was rebarreled, and perhaps subsequent to that. It was common practice "in the day" to have barrels re-blackened after each hunting adventure, as well as repaired and reconditiond as needed to be ready for the next outing.

I will continue to search for the history of the original purchaser "James Robertson, esq." from 1868. Wouldn't it be grand to find details about his hunting adventures with it as well.

Continued comments are most welcome.

Great Gun! you sure got the Hole package! great Story, Please keep us up to date one it!

Cal Pappas, author of several books on double rifles, owned that rifle at a prior date and he did the research on it. That information went along to next caretaker.
Bucky should give credit where credit is due.

After reading all Buckstix's posts on the rifle, I didn't get the impression he was taking credit for doing all the research. I even went back and re-read it after your post. He even says that a lot of the research was already done in his OP. He may not have mentioned the person responsible for doing the research but I didn't read it as anything other than Buckstix relaying the story of a cool old rifle that he bought.

From Buckstix OP:

WTF, Mike? First, I don't see where the Op "took credit" for the research and second, he bought the gun from a retail outfit who just gave him the research. But even if what you say has merit (it doesn't) does EVERY fuggin' thread on the damned place have to wind up in a pissing contest? This is a GREAT thread and your post, at least how presented, contributes nothing. j

+1

DF

IMO he should have given credit to Cal for the tedious research.

Assuming he KNEW, but even then, why? he didn't claim the research as his own. Honestly, this is picking flyshit out of pepper..

Agree...this is pretty petty. And likely stifles people from wanting to share in the future.

I for one am grateful he took the time to upload photos and share with the group. It really makes no difference if he shared who did the research for the purpose of his post...and as Jorge pointed out, that is IF he even knew who did it.

Hell, too many people I know that could afford it would shuffle it away from the light of day and never share with anyone.

Again, THANK YOU Buckstix for sharing.

IMO - this is a TURD in a churn!!


Jerry

I can't believe Cal would sell that rifle considering its condition and history. At least it seems to have a compassionate and knowledgeable caretaker. Well done, Bucky.

Well, no one has said how much money changed hands...

Not much that can't be bought for the right price...

DF

Simply superb, what a rifle and story.

Gents:
I guess I should chime in here as my name has been invoked by a mate of mine. Thanks, Mike, for keeping an eye out for me.

I owned the 20-577 double that is the subject of this thread. The history of its purchase is as follows:
Late '90s the rifle was for sale in a gun shop for $8500 in Anchorage and it was bought by a local MD.
In 2002 I traded a 1926 Cogswell and Harrison takedown Mauser-actioned .375 H&H and some money for the 20-577 from the doc.
I immediately worked to discover the history of the rifle, bought brass, dies, and a mould, found the copy of the book McNeill wrote, and a signed photo of McNeill. I wrote an article on the rifle and its history that was published in the African Hunter in 2003 or 4.
I had the rifle fitted to a case and developed loads for the rifle that shot well.
After a few years I put it up for sale via a dealer in Anchorage. A gun dealer in the Lower 48 bought it for a client of his--a dentist in Georgia. I received $13,500 for the rifle. It sold with the case, dies, brass, and the book. I kept the original photo of McNeill, original ammo, and the accessories in the case. (The reason I kept the accessories is that many dealers, including the one I sold the rifle through, have a bad habit of either keeping the accessories or selling them in a separate sale and keeping the profit).
Several years later the dentist thinned out his collection and sold this rifle, and two .600s via Lewis Drake. For this rifle, I recall Lewis was asking 15K.The .600 Army and Navy was a beautiful original rifle and his.600 Jeffery was a restock with after market engraving on it--this was reflected in the price it sold for. The A&N lives now with a doctor in Texas and the Jeffery with a fella in the southeast. Both rifles are in my book on the .600s.
I received a call from Buckstix when he was contemplating purchasing the 20-577. I was very honest with Buck and told him of several flaws of the riffle that were reasons why I decided to sell it. That was fine with him and he bought it and found some additional information on the rifle and the owner.
However, much of the history and other details were found by myself. Also, the photos here should be credited to Lewis Drake as they are his copyright.
As mentioned, the rifle has a few flaws but the history is outstanding. I have recently picked up a .500no2 with a set of shotgun barrels and a two tiered case with every accessory imaginable with a full history. And, I just sold another historical rifle--a Holland and Holland Royal in .500 bpe. The owner was a military officer and his son was an African hunter who wrote a two volume set of his safari and was speared to death by natives on his second safari. History is great and Buck has a wonderful historical rifle.
Buck--you mentioned finding info on the original owner of 1868. Contact the library of the Scottish Military Museum in Edinburgh. If Robertson was in the military they have his record--could be a listing of his name and rank and years of service, or very elaborate such as McNeill's. Also the Mormon church has genealogical records of tens of millions. Third place to look is Scotland Yard.
Buck also mentioned the reloading data he received was too hot. It came from me, although he didn't mention my name. I respectfully disagree. 75 grains of 4198 and the approximate velocity obtained were correct for this rifle. Buck's velocity is very slow for the rifle but it closely follows the 75% rule (in reverse). However in nearly 30 years I have never, nor have I ever seen or heard of, a double shooting such a small group at 50 yards. 75% rules, both the original intent and the reverse, while shoot well and acceptable, don't seem to equal the grouping from the regulated load. The 75-grain charge of IMR 4198 was the best grouping I could develop--less was apart and more was cross firing.
Just my two cents...
Cal
calpappas.com
PS. I just repurchased the Cogswell .375. But, I ask myself, what am I to do with a rifle with only one barrel?

For those interested, here is the article I wrote in 2003 as published in the African Hunter magazine:

JOHN DICKSON 2894 and ALEX HENRY 7186--ONE IN THE SAME

text by Cal Pappas

photos by Doug E. Griffin and Matt DeVincenzi

The theory of evolution perhaps came to be a fact when I began to trade and sell my Winchesters as double rifles began to call. The clarion call was irresistible and doubles have become the object of my affection. (After all, the most elaborate Winchester is nothing more than a mass-production rifle with embellishments added.) My interest in firearms evolved to the highest level with the English doubles and I have never had a moment of regret.

One aspect of my general interest in firearms that carried over to my new -found love of doubles was that of a duality of the specific era (late 1800s to early 1900s) and the history of each individual firearm. Now, a double rifle has found its way into my possession that needs to be shared with you. Not only is this rifle unique in caliber and configuration but it is also a gold mine of history. Before going into the details let me relate the circumstances on its acquisition.

The last non-double rifle I planned to dispose of was a classic Cogswell and Harrison Mauser bolt action in the .375 H&H magnum cartridge that dated to 1926. It sported a Griffin and Howe side mount, three leaf express sight, a 26-inch barrel, cheek piece stock, and a desirable takedown feature. Cased in oak and leather it was a difficult one to part with. What awaited was by far more of a treasure.

The double rifle that was soon to me mine (after a trade with a bit of boot added) was a John Dickson exposed hammer, Jones underlever rifle in the rare caliber 20-.577. This cartridge was a proprietary round by the Scottish firm of Alex Henry. It is a 2 3/4" 20-gauge brass shotgun cartridge necked down to accept a .577 bullet (.584” dia.). The powder charge was the same as the standard .577 3-inch at 165 grains (six drams), although one is known to the author with a proof of 7 drams, and a few have a nitro proof stamp.

The rifle sported 28-inch barrels, a straight grip stock with a semi-pistol grip formed by the bottom strap, a cheek piece, and recoil pad. The action was finely engraved and the rifle had undergone an excellent refinish sometime in the past--stock finish, case colors, and barrel blue were in excellent condition. Last of all the Dickson rested in an oak and leather case with accessories. (I've never missed the .375...much).

Upon acquisition of any new rifle I first attempt to learn about its history. The summer of 2002 seemed to be a good time to so.

I was on vacation from my job as a high school history teacher and was spending the next eight weeks in a full-length leg cast due to a complete rupture of my left Achilles tendon sustained on the last day of a hunting trip in South Africa the week prior. (Just before I departed for my hunt the Dickson became mine.)

A letter was faxed to Dickson and McNaughton (a fairly new corporation encompassing most of the famous Scottish makers of the past century). A reply was short coming but upon reading the copy of the Dickson ledger I was disheartened. The rifle, my prized rifle, was made for a James Robertson, Esq. in 1868 as a "double central fire breech-loading rifle, number 2894, gauge 12." That's right a 12-bore rifle! Did I have a non-original rebarrel?

The ledger continued with the stock dimensions and the "weight of barrels 5 3/4 lb., length 27 inches. Back lock, charge of powder 3 drams, stock unvarnished, spur guard." I now knew the proper name for the grip formed from the bottom strap--a spur guard. But I was saddened by the 12-gauge rifle barrels with the 27-inch length.

But wait! On the barrel flats was another number: AH7186. Knowing the 20-.577 cartridge was developed by Alex Henry and, to the best of my knowledge, was not released to the trade I reached for the phone. My call to Dickson and McNaughton came with a request to search the Alex Henry ledger. (I must state the folks in the Scottish and English gun and rifle trade are the most polite and willing to assist).

The sad news (I was told) was the serial numbers stopped well before the AH number, 7186, of my rifle. However, before a tear could fall, my new found friend in Scotland said, "One moment, here are some unregistered numbers for after-market work." Then he read to specifications of number 7186. "New barrels to Dickson rifle, 20-.577, 28 inch steel, nitro proved, upright sight--standing and two leaves, 1-2-300 yards, usual front sight--plate tip, 26th Nov., 1900, Kynoch solid drawn shell, 70 grs. rifleite, 650 gr. bullet, nickel coated soft nose, barrel weight 7 lbs. 10 oz. for Cap't McNeill." A copy of the ledger would soon be mailed.

I looked at the new object of my affection. Everything I enjoy about double rifles was here--quality, originality, and history. Since it would be a while before I was able to walk to the range and shoot it I sent if off to my friends at Griffin and Howe in Bernardsville, New Jersey (908-766-2287) for an inspection and a replacement of the recoil pad. I also placed and order to Rocky Mountain Cartridge in Cody Wyoming (307-587-9693) for two boxes of brass cartridge cases and to 4D-CH tool (740-397-7214) for a set of dies and a shell holder.

A good friend in Alaska who is also perhaps the finest machinist I know made a chamber cast for the reloading die specifications as well as a bullet mould to the approximate weight and shape of the original projectile. I requested a 650-grain bullet that I planned to cast from wheel weights. Two days later I received a call, "I have your mould ready. It casts at 647 grains. Is that OK?"

The 2002 summer drew long in my full-leg plaster. I cast a lifetime supply of bullets for all of my rifles and lubed and sized the same. I was unable to pursue my outdoors passions in the 24-hour daylight in Alaska as I have done for the past twenty years. All of my hunting trips (moose, caribou, black and grizzly bear, as well as a permit for Dall sheep in one of the finest areas of the state) had to be canceled.

All facets of double rifle ownership that I enjoy were coming together but there was still one more question to be answered--who was Cap't McNeill? Well, I wasn't going anywhere so I began to follow this route. A letter to the Scottish Military Museum was promptly answered by Ms. Edith Phillip from the library. If gold had been struck in the factory ledgers, I was about to uncover the Mother Lode!

Captain Malcolm McNeill was born on January 30, 1866, the son of Lt-Col A.C. McNeill. He entered the army in 1885 when he was 19, serving in several African campaigns and World War One. He won several medals and awards and died suddenly on June 3, 1917. (It is not stated if McNeill died of illness, war wounds, killed in action, etc...). His main recreation was big game hunting, fishing and shooting and a museum stands in Oban, Scotland (his home) with his hunting trophies. And it gets better. He authored a book about his military life and hunting trips in Somaliland. Entitled, "In Pursuit of the Mad Mullah--Service and Sport in the Somali Protectorate,” the book only had one printing (1902). I had to locate a copy.

My mom has a bookseller friend in (the People's Republic of) Massachusetts and she asked him to do an internet search. Three copies were found. The two in England were not in the best of condition. Johannesburg, South Africa, was home to the best copy and it was soon on its way to my home in Anchorage as a birthday gift. A framed photo of the captain was located in London and it, too, was expressed to me.

Captain McNeill was scheduled to go to India in late 1900 but had a last minute order change that was to see him off to Africa's Somaliland. He purchased the 20-.577 in late November of that year so he would have an adequate rifle for his big game hunting. "...just as I was preparing to return to India, I received notice from the War Office to the effect that I had been selected for service with the Somaliland Field Force, and that I was to report myself without delay at the Foreign Office" (p.2-3). McNeill had served (and hunted) in Somaliland in the mid-1890s and his dream to return was fulfilled.

I had thoughts of Captain McNeill's book filled with stories of man-eating lions and charging elephants all stopped with his trusty 20-.577. Of course the book would be decorated with photographs of the captain, his rifle, and his large and dangerous trophies he brought to bag. Reality was almost as good!

The front piece of the book has a photograph of the captain sitting with the 20-.577 cradled in his arms. No game photos are printed with my rifle but one is printed of McNeill's first lion (one of four man-eaters he was after) killed with his 12-gauge Paradox double. The story is a good one.

While on a mission to capture the renegade Mahomed Abdullah the Captain was told of four man-eating lions that were terrorizing a small village. He detoured from his mission to investigate and found the remains of a man and two camels in the newly deserted village. "I had with me a 12-bore paradox, shooting 4 drachms--just the weapon for night work--and a .275 sporting Mauser. The latter was hardly the rifle for lion shooting, but I had brought it for dibtag, and my .577 had gone on with my camels" (p.45).

The first lion he took (with his 12-bore) was 8' 4" long. His camels arrived soon after and he was able to now take his 20-.577 in pursuit of the remaining three lions. "I also had my .577 by now, and felt quite prepared to meet anything that might turn up" (p.53).

Upon successfully tracking lion number two, McNeill "...immediately knelt down and fired with my .577, taking him just in front of the shoulder. On receiving the shot he pulled up at once, nearly falling as he did so, and the left barrel knocked him clean over. He managed to crawl under a small tree about 2 or 3 yards off and to get his head round facing me. I put in another shot for safety's sake when I got to about 80 yards from him, but he did not really require it--either of the first two would have killed him. This lion was the biggest of the three I got that day, 8 feet, 10 1/2 inches as he lay--a big, powerfully made beast, but with no mane" (p.57-58).

The remaining two lions were out of sight in the tall grass. Later that day McNeill bagged his third lion--the second with the 20-.577. Unable to flush the beasts out, McNeill started a grass fire. "He stood at the edge of the fire about 80 yards from me, broadside on, and I at once gave him the .577 in the left shoulder. On receiving the shot he turned round and charged straight back through the fire (which was about 18 or 20 yards off), burning his whiskers and singeing himself generally, but not very badly. On getting through the flames he stood on his hind legs, pawing the air, and then fell over on his side--dead" (p.59). The last lion, a female, departed for safer grounds and was not seen again.

I was one happy camper! The remainder of the book is divided into McNeill's military exploits and small game hunting with his .275.

Now it is spring 2003 and nearing the end in perhaps the warmest winter on record in Alaska. McNeill's book has been read and reread, the dies are here, the brass is here, the rifle has returned from Griffin and Howe, and I have reloading information from a friend in Florida who also has a 20-.577. (His rifle is a Holland and Holland, regulated for black powder, is a best quality weapon, and very accurate).

My prior experience with light nitro and nitro-for-black loadings has shown IMR 4198 the best choice. In most instances I have found accurate loadings will result with a grain-for-grain charge. Since my rifle was proved for 70 grains of rifleite (an early cordite) I began with a starter load of 60 grains of 4198 with kapok filler. I increased the charge 2.5 grains with each 4-shot string. Shooting through a PACT chronograph I recorded the velocity as well as noted the left and right pattern on the 50-yard target.

All 4-shot groups patterned quite well but the rifle shot several inches high at 50 yards. (A bit of filing on the rear sight should take care of this minor problem) The load settled on was 75 grains of 4198 with a tuft of kapok pillow stuffing to keep the powder next to the large rifle magnum primer. The wheelweight cast bullets of 647 grains exit the barrels at an average of 1743 fps. The muzzle energy calculates to 4366 fpe and John Taylor's knock out value is 94. The recoil is a bit heavy but manageable in the 12-pound rifle. The bores pick up a bit of lead due to the pits remaining from the cordite days. Woodleigh 650-grain jacketed bullets should solve this second minor problem.

What does the future hold? 2003 was spent hunting with a .450 no2 double and saw success with a cape buffalo, giraffe, and an arctic grizzly bear. Next year the 20-.577 may see a spring bear hunt or perhaps a water buffalo hunt down under. Whatever happens, it will be a joy to take Captain McNeill's rifle to the field after a 100+ year rest.


One last note: due to the complexities of reloading and the condition of antique rifles neither the author or publisher of this journal makes any claim as to the safety of the loads listed herein. They have only been proven to work in the author's rifle. Have your antique rifle checked by a competent gunsmith before firing. Good shooting!

Post Script: The long, cold, and dark winter nights are here and I’m reading one of my favorite stories. Teddy Roosevelt’s African Game Trails has been my companion on more than one subzero night at my cabin over the years. This time, something struck me as if hit by lightning. How could I have missed it before and now have it standout so significantly? There it was, right in front of my eyes, in the “List of zoologists and sportsmen who are donors of a double elephant rifle to the Hon. Theodore Roosevelt, President U.S.A.” (p.28-9). The rifle was the elegant Holland and Holland Royal .500-450. On the list, accompanied by famous names such as Rothschild, Buxton, and Selous, was... Captain M. McNeill!

It not get any better than this!

Sir we do not know each other but I TIP my HAT to you for BOTH,

The long post....
and
The detailed history of that rifle.

Admiration all around! !


Jerry

Hello All,

Once again I wish to thank you for all the kind replies to my post.

My intent of this post was to share with all of you, my happiness of owning a wonderful rifle with a unique history. I hope you all enjoyed it.

Unfortunately this post, like so many others, has gone astray. So, I find it necessary to clarify a few facts.

I find it a bit odd that 5744 pistol powder supposedly gives him the pressures/velocities of early nitro powder.

Another gent from 'down under' uses 93 grains of Varget to light up his 20/577 and get 1650fps out of it with about 8 tons of pressure. 10T was the accepted pressure for DR's.

I'm personally using 64 grains of IMR4198 with a 650 Woodie
out of my 577 3" BPE and it likes 92 grains of Varget using the same bullet.